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This is an interview with Mr . Hal Eaton , February 19 , 1976 .
is Jane Effird with Mike Evans through the Appalachian Oral
History Project .
This
Q.
We want to talk to you about the Virginia part in the New River
fight , and what you ' ve had to do with it .
A.
Yes . Uh , well , I ' ve been a resident here for four and a half
years . And when I came here I knew nothing about pump storage
and had never heard of the Blue Ridge Project . And when I came
they said there was a possibility that dams were going to be
built and uh , my first reaction was uh , as pastor of the church ,
it wasn ' t a moral issue , not something you talk about right or
wrong, but then I gradually came to realize that , of our church
membership uh all but one family would have to be relocated by·
the Appalachian Power Company if the dams became a reality . Uh ,
the few families who would be living in areas that would be uneffected by the dam would be separated from the church by miles
of water . So uh I got more and more . involved and learned more
and more about what the proposals were . Uh , I found that uh the
state of Virginia, at least at the higher levels of government
had proved and worked with the APC in the task of uh , making preparations to build the dams and then uh I found out that North
Carolina was gradually going the other way until finally uh there
was very strong feelings in North Carolina against the building
of the Blue Ridge Project. Uh , I have
corresponded
with the governor uh and gotten one letter in which he uh, uh said
in effect that there were alot of people in Virginia in favor of
the Blue Ridge Project . I presume he ' s talking about the people
that he goes to cocktail parties with . Uh, APC and other politicians . The uh , in the state the thirteen congressional representatives uh, theoretically at first were all in favor of the
Blue Ridge Project , but those who began to look into it , who asked
for information about it , who request attitudes from the local
people about it, uh are apt to switch their allegiance . Congressman Whitehurst has gone all the way the other way. He ' s from down
the other end of the state , but he has written to the Secy of the
Interior and urged him to accept the New River into the Scenic
River System . Uh , Bob Daniel , another congressman , is asking for
information and a letter has just come back toady . I uh - it
wasn ' t addressed to me , it was addressed to Peter Crow from Farum
College, who ' s on the Virginia Committee and uh I hope that he's
going to come out in favor of Scenic River status for the New
River . Uh , Our own 9th District representative is Congressman
Wompler , uh, his original stand was that he would do what he
could for the people of this area and he went off to Washington,
lobbied actively in favor of the Blue Ridge Project and hasn't
been back in this part of the country since . There have been no
public meetings , uh, our representatives act as if everybody down
here is in favor of the dam but they have not had any public
meetings . They have not sought the opinion of the people. Uh,
Congressman Wompler put out a newsletter to all his constituents
�-2Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side A
I think he got 20,000 replies, uh asking our advice about what
out attitude ought to be about China, and what it ought to be
toward this and that and the other thing, but he did not ask
what our attitude was about Scenic River status for the New River .
Q.
Why do you think that is?
A.
Uh, I think he has an opinion about it and he ' s not willing to be
swayed . And since the governor of the state has agreed with him
on it, and the attorney general has gone along with the idea, uh
I think their attitude is "Don ' t rock the boat" .
Q.
Well,
is Mouth of Wilson the only place ,
or Grayson County the only place that will be effected by the River.
By the Project, I mean .
A.
Uh, the Blue Ridge Project would uh innundate 40 , 000 acres of
land and take about another 12 , 000 for other purposes . Uh, most
of that acreage is in Grayson County . None of it is in any other
Virginia county. The rest of the Project is in Ashe County and
Allegheny County in North Carolina . So Grayson County is the only
county that will have acres and acres of water .
Q.
Well, has the governor changed his mind , sort of , or is the state
as a whole still for the Project?
A.
Uh, as far as, uh, the state as a whole doesn't know much about
it . Uh, there are dams all over the state of Virginia , uh Virginia
Electric Power Company, VEPCO plans to build an even larger pump
storage project than the Blue Ridge Project up in Bath County .
And uh, there ' s been very little opposition to that . There ' s a
plan now to build four more dams on the Roanoke River above Roanoke .
All of these will be , theoretically , recreation areas . There are, the
reservoir is not too far from
us , the ,
of course the Holsten Reservoir, down toward Bristol, Virginia .
The Smith Mountain Lake, Flater Lake . We have huge lakes all
around us that are supposed to be great recreational places but
they have not made uh , uh, real great economic impact on the
counties in which they are located . APC wants this project , they
have given us newspaper articles , and expensive advertising . You
know of course about the double page ads in the New York Times ,
the Washington Post , Time Magazine , The Wallstreet Journal . Uh ,
the advertising alone has cost them about $150,000 . 00 . And all of
the talk they have done , they talk about what a great thing they
are doing for the country . They never once said we are going to
make a buck out of this project , if we can get it built . And they
talk about the truth , but they never talk about the financial uh
boon that it would be to APC . Of course , one of the big problems
is that in the area that will be covered up by water annually ,
there is produced 13! million dollars in agricultural products .
APCO , the one figure that I heard is that they plan to sell the
electricity for about $39 million a year and that will be profit
to APCO , no profit to the local situation . The next alternative ,
the next uh possible alternative to building the Blue Ridge Project
would be to build another highly effecient coal fired electrical
generation station . And that would cost APCO $3 million a yea~ .
more than it would cost them in the long run to produce electricity
�-3-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side A
by the Blue Ridge Project. So, for the sake of saving APCO
$3 million on their already $39 million profit, but to save them
$3 million, we sacrifice $13t million in agricultural products
off this land. One of the things that they offer as an inducement to Grayson County is that they will pay $1 million in taxes
annually, which sounds good, but its very similar to the deal
the United States made with Cuba, when we rented, on a 99 year
lease, Guantanamo Bay as a naval base. We said we'd give them,
I forget the exact amount, but it looked like alot of money to
the Cubans. Well, at the time we made the agreement, uh, back
at the turn of the century, a few hundred thousand dollars was
great to them, and now of course, Castro doesn't even cash the
checks we give him because he says the land is far more valuable
than that. Uh, the Isthmus of Panama, when we built the Panama
Canal, we made a deal to give so many million dollars annually
to the country of Panama, and they were glad to get it. But that's
been 70 years ago and now they are crying that what we are giving
them is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what that land is
actually worth. Uh, APC, and I read the papers on this just
today, uh, the deal is that once you assess the value of the land
and put it under water, the value does not change and so fifty
years from now, they could, Grayson County could be receiving
a million dollars from the land - a year, from the land that's
covered up. But fifty years from now, with a six or eight or ten
percent annual inflation rate, that million dollars is not going
to pay the salary of the mayor of the town. Now that's just one
of the things that they make it sound like "We're going to give
you a million dollars a year'' Well, that's not even tied to the
inflation rate. It's not tied to the increased value of the land.
Q.
One of the questions that alot of people are asking the committee
at school is what are the people at the Mouth of Wilson going to
do, I mean, not just
where are they going to move,
but uh is the APC making some kind of arrangements for the people
that are going to be moved?
A.
In the advertisement that the APCO or that American Electric Power
Company, which is the parent company of Appalachian Power Company,
in the advertisement that they put in all the newspapers, they
stated that they would, and there's quite a little list of things
they would do for the people who would be displaced. They would
give them the fair price for their land . . They would help them
locate a new place to live with an advisory service. If there was
an increase in interest cost on mortgages, they would supply that.
There was a list of seven or eight things that they woul~ do. And
it sounded great until you realized that the law requires them to
do every
one of those, if they run people off their land.
This is not something that APC is giving to anybody, out of the
goodness of their hearts. Its a requirement of the law. Now, one
of the requirements was that if tenants on the land here were to
be relocated, that APC were to be responsible for the cost of relocating tenants, not landowners, but just people who rented homes
on the land that's going to be inundated. The law further stipulated
�- 4-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1 , Side A
4
that that maximum in moving costs could go as high as $5 , 000 . 00
because they had to put some ceiling on it , but it had to be some
ceiling that would cover all the possibilities and potential of
costs of a move . And so , when Appala chian heard this , they immediately quit renting houses . And up and down this valley , for
three years , houses were left vacant and let go to ruin because
they did not want to anticipate having to pay the cost of moving
renters from one house to another . And now that they have rather
recently started renting these houses out again , many of them are
in a sad state of repair and that ' s another problem that the whole
county faces , because they bought the land , allowed the houses
to go down without renting them and now they ' re - uh they ' ve begun
to rent them again just recently . Uh , one other point in their ad
they said that all of the people who would be moved off the i r
land would be cared for by APC . And I have yet to find any red
blooded American who wants to be cared for by a power company
(laughing) . The wording of this thing is just atrocious .
Q.
Why , besides making so much money , the power company , is there
some other reason that they particularly want this project to go
through, that ' s been going on for so many years?
A.
Yes .
Q.
And they have spent sornuch money on advertising •..
A.
Yes . Uh , I I think there may well be a feeling on the part of APCO
and American Electric Power Company - American Electric is a conglomerate of seven large power companies that control most of the
electricity in about a six or seven state area . I ' m not sure about
the details on this , but they know that if in their desire for
power , if they are blocked in their desire to get a dam built on
a river to make power , then it ' s going to be a whole lot easier
for them to be blocked again in the fut ure if they want to dam a
river . And so this is a uh , in a sense , maybe a uh test case . Uh
darns have been blocked before , but never with as much publicity
and as much uh uh involvement of politicians , as is the case here .
And if this uh becomes a reality , that the people , that the voice
of the people is heard before the voice of a uh a private pow ~r
company , then that will certainly will be a boost to any , any group
of private citizens who desire to hold out against the onslaught
of a a power company who wants to come in and condemn their land
and take it away from them .
Q.
Well , how do you feel , r ight now at this point as to how i t ' s
going to go?
A.
Uh •..
Q.
I ' ll tell you why I ask this because last night another student
that works with us interviewed a lawyer in Sparta , I believe Mr .
Adams ••. ?
A.
Yes , uh huh .
�5
-5-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side A
Q.
And he said he wasn't worried at all.
would win this.
A.
Yes. Uh, one of the principles of any battle like this is that
you've always got to be optimistic. Uh, every campaign manager
for every presidential candidate says that's their group is going
to win. Any time he begins to poor mouth himself and say we don't
stand a chance, he's going to lose votes. And I think it's good
to be optimistic. I know that APC is optimistic. Uh, the man
named Kirkland, who is head of the Pulaski division of APC, has
been hosting dinners all over this area in the past two weeks,
inviting all interested citizens to a free meal and then a speech
in which he says that we are going to build this dam. We need
it and we'll take it clear to the Supreme Court. Well he doesn't
dare say we may lose. Because it's part of the psychology of
battle that you uh, well, as an old Spanish proverb puts it, we
are running out of ammunition and the food is getting low and
everybody is wounded, run up more flags.
(laughing) And both
sides of course, have a tendency to do this and I'm not as optimistic as some because I know that APC is not going to give up
easily. I do know that is the New River is accepted into the
Scenic River System by the Department of the Interior that APC
will go to court in an attempt to overthrow that decision. But
I do maintain that uh it's better for APCO to go to court to get
a profitable power situation out of this valley than for the
people who live here to have to go to court in order merely to
hold onto what's already theirs. But that's the way it is now.
These people are contributing money, in the cause of court cases
in order to fight off the power company and if they win, they've
lost their money because they've spent it only to hold onto what
they've got. If they lose, they've lost their land and their contribution to the battle. That's just not fair. And I'd rather
see APCO have to go to court than for these people to go to court.
Q.
Well, do you think there's any one thing that we haven't tried
yet or that hasn't been tried yet, that maybe could stop the
power company?
A.
Uh, there are three things going on right now, you know, to stop
them. Uh, uh, when you said trying things, it reminded me that
uh APCO has often said that, and the Roanoke Times has echoed it,
the Roanoke Times I think is the only newspaper I've seen that has
shown support for the Blue Ridge Project. But the Roanoke Times
has said that the state of North Carolina has dipped down into
their bag of tricks to find some method to block the building of
the dam. Well, bless their hearts, the whole purpose of the Scenic
River System is to block dams. That's the primary purpose of it to retain the beauty and the natural setting of rivers. And it's
to block dams. That's what it's for. And to say they reached
into a bag of tricks to block the Blue Ridge Project, they simply
took one of the avenues that the voice of the people established
for the purpose of blocking dams. And so it's no trick, it's
simply a uh a way to block dams. And that's what it's for. Uh,
And he thought that we
�-6-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side A
if the Scenic River - uh acceptance of the New River into the
national Scenic River System works , that ' s fine . Now, if it ' s
accepted into the system and APCO goes to court , their claim is
that they got their license first , you know . It was granted by
the Federal Power Commission , with an effective of January , 1975 .
And so they say if the River goes into the Scenic River System
in 1976 , they got there first , that they have a right to it . Uh,
one of the things that the lawyers for APC said that was really
hilarious - he said that since APCO owns already some of the land
that they want to put under water , that he just thinks it would
be terrible if the federal government should designate it as a
scenic river and keep them from developing that private property
that is their ' s . And I about fell out of my chair when I heard
that (laughing) . It ' s private property that they claim to have
acquired by condemnation proceedings . And that ' s just , just an
insult (laughing) . But the , the one item there is that , to say
that , that the license has been granted and therefore it is inviolate is rather stupid . To say that simply because a license
has been granted you can't fight it is silly . And I think it is
only inviolate if it has been subjected to every possible attempt
to overthrow it and when all attempts clear the Sup reme Court have been brushed aside and the license has been upheld, then
they have got an effective date . But they can ' t argue that they
got there first . If that ' s the argument , we ' ll give it back to
the Indians . Uh , but the logic that you see in this thing is
just - it gets to be hilarious . Now the second thing , to block
the construction of the dam is the court case that North Carolina
took to the Court of Appeals , uh , suggesting that when the Federal
Power Commission gave the license to APCO , that APCO had not provided all of the information to the Federal Power Commission
which the law required . Specifically with regard to archeological
sites and findings . And that is exactly what happened . Uh , they
are required to do it , when somebody brought it up and said you
didn ' t do it , they said we did too . And this was uh uh direct
quotes. The man in charge , Paul Johnson , said "We did give them
that information ." And they pressed him further and asked him
when did you give it to them and he said "Well , we had it and they
had access to it ." And then when pressed further he said "Well ,
it ' s in our files but it was never sent to them ." And that ' s the
way it rested . Uh , so that the second thing is that uh , the
Court of Appeals has heard the case andthere are three judges and
from all appearances , it looks like they are going to say the
license is invalid because you disobeyed the law when you granted
it , you must go through the whole process with re - hearings again .
Now , that will throw it back to the Federal Power Commission .
That ' s the second which may halt the building of the Blue Ridge
Project . The third thing is that if both of those previous steps
fail , the third thing that can be tried is that there are at
least a half a dozen if not more , bills already prepared and just
waiting to be put through the uh , through Congress . Uh , all of
them uh , stating various things, but all of it coming down to one
thing - to block the building of the Blue Ridge Dams . Some of
them - one of the bills is simply to - by Congressional action
to put the whole :tk±Jl1g New River in the Scenic River system .
�-7-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1 , Sice A
Or various sections of it . One is simply , just says no dams will
be built on the New River in the Blue Ridge area . Uh , I have
forgotten how they have worded the other bills but there are half
a dozen just waiting , so nobody can say uh well you ' ve reached
into your bag of tricks and found another one . This is not
reaching into a bag of tricks . This is foresight on the part of
Representative Stephen Neal , who followed the lead of , of Wilbur
Mizel , whom he replaced . Mizel started it and Neal took right up
where Mizel left off and uh followed the voice of the people in
North Carolina . And will push the bill through Congress if that ' s
the next step . Uh , one of the things that APC is fond of saying
is that the attempt to block , or to study the New River on a two
year basis for inclusion in the National Scenic River System uh
that was voted down in Congress and of course it was . Of course ,
it got a tremendous majority vote for the study in the Senate .
When it got to the House of Representatives , it got bottled up
in a committee by an eighty- some year old senator who said that
since some other people didn ' t do what he wanted with the Indiana
sand dunes , he wasn ' t going to do what they wanted with the bill
for the New River . And he blocked it and bottled it up until our
Congressman Wompler went before them with a , uh a resolution
from the Virginia State Farm Bureau which said that they thought
we needed the electric power more than the uh agricultural products
of the valley down here . Well you know , getting a resolution
passed in a state meeting like that is uh - if you have ever been
to a state convention , all you have to do is submit one and it ' ll
get passed . Uh , there was tremendous disruption in the local county
farm bureau meetings when this came out . In fact , there were
statements printed in the newspaper that uh , uh , by the local
state farm bureau representative saying we will have no part of
that . We want it understood we had no part in that . But Wampler
used that to get the bill to study the New River for inclusion in
the Scenic River System uh , voted down in the committee . So then
it was placed directly on the floor for a vote by the congressmen
in the House of Representatives . If it ' s been bottled up in a
committee and does not go through the committee for passage of a
bill like that , it takes a two - thirds majority . That ' s one of the
technicalities of running the business . The bill, as I say, passed
by an outstanding majority of the Senate . When it got to the
House of Representatives , it passed by a simple majority . But
not by a two thirds majority . So by actual vote of Congress , the
voice of the people , demo - democracy in action . they said " Let ' s
study the New River for inclusion in the uh the Scenic River
System ." But their own technicalities let it fail , ev ~ n though it
pass ed by an outstanding majority in the Senate and by a simple
majority in the House of Representatives . So when APC blindly
says it was voted down in Congress, that ' s not the whole truth .
So that ' s the , that ' s the third channel in Congress where this
thing could be blocked . So there are three - if we win one battle
we ' ve won the war . But if we lose a battle , we haven ' t lost the
war . There are still other ways to go about it . And I ' ve often
said that that the last~is to arm some of our old widow ladies
on these farms with a shotgun and let them sit on their front porches .
�- 8-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1 , Side A
And uh , it ' s been done before , but you need national attention
for a situation like this where uh so much is to be dest r oyed
for actually so little . It ' s not l i ttle when you think about
the money that APC might make off of it . But it ' s ver y l i ttle
compared to the life of the Blue Ridge Project . It ' s got a
fifty year license and they anticipated fifteen years that the
thing they ' re talking about - the need being peak power pr oduc tion , will have diminished . Far below half of what the requirement is when it ' s first in operation . So even the reason they
are pushing it is a reason that ' s going to be out of existence
in ten to fifteen years .
Q.
Uh , can this be compared to the Tennessee Valley Authority , to
what happened there?
A.
Uh , yeah . The Tennessee Valley Authority , I think most of those
are not pump storage projects . They are just dams which provide
power directly .
Q.
But I mean , that ' s what happened to the people?
A.
That ' s right . Very similar , yes . Uh , the land is condemned,
the people are moved off . Uh , as always happenes , the people
who a r e uh uh the first ones to knuckle under , if you please ,
to sell , take a beating because within three or four year s , the
people who sell are making - getting twi ce as much money as the
people were earlier in the game . And that causes bitterness .
And then with all of the promises that APC has made about how
valuable the land is going to be around here , alot of people have
gone into speculation . And therefore land prices have jumped
around here . Just - you can ' t buy a farm and farm it profitably
because it costs too much for the land now to farm it properly .
Because of the speculation about how valuable the land is going
to be if the dam comes . But uh we have alot of feelings that all
the pr omises that Appalachian makes are not going to be fulfilled .
I said
to somebody today I almost wish we ' d let them go
ahead and build the dam so we could say " I told you so " when
things don ' t work out nea rly as gloriously as they seem to think
they will .
Q.
Have alot of people around here sold out already?
A.
Uh , Appalachian has figu r es on this . I think they ' ve bought a
third of the land they will require, but I ' m not sure of the
figures on that . They have bought some of the land that they
will ultimately require . Now they are not pursueing it right
now . They haven ' t bought any land for three to four years e 2~ cept
when somebody has gone to them . But they are not going around
making offers as they did up until about four years ago .
Q.
Why is that?
A.
Well , I think they have uh considerable doubts about whether or
not this thing is really going to be built . Uh , another item
The same thing .
�-9-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side A-B
of course, is the rebuilding of Highway 58 between Independence
and Galax. That's a tortuous route that goes along the river and
uh, for years now, they've not rebuilt that highway because uh, if
the dams come it's going to be flooded and they'll have to rebuild it somewhere else. They have two routes - a high one and a
low one. And so, just last week, the uh, all of the Grayson County
Board of Supervisors and the school boards and some other people
went before the State Highway Commission and they said "What are
you going to do?" And after all these years they said "We've
waited long enough, we're going to start building that highway.
If Appalachian will pay us," I've forgotten the figures but it
was something like, it will cost them, uh several million dollars
more to go the high route away from the water. So the State Highway Department said "We'll build the low route unless Appalachian
provides us the money now to build on the high route, uh, out of
the water. And Appalachian said no. So they are going to build
it on the low route and then when the water comes and floods it,
Appalachian will be stuck for the bill for rebuilding the whole
thing on the high route, at a much greater expense. Now these
are signals that we have that make us think that Appalachian is
not nearly sure as they -
Q.
Their two page ad -
A.
As their ads signify and as their speeches indicate. What m~ybe
ought not be on the tape is that we are now looking into the fact
that when APCO constructs a new facility, they can r±gkt write off
the cost of that into the, the cost of electricity. So they don't
to uh uh cut corners on construction or watch their eApenses. They
know they are going to get 10% back on whatever, you know. Because that's the nature of a control monopoly. VEPCO in one
place, in order to facilitate uh some of their building, was paying higher than union scale for some of their workmen. Now that
makes VEPCO look like real nice guys but the consumers are paying
for it, because that goes right to what they call the rate base,
uh, and they got caught doing that. Uh, we think and we are looking into the fact that most of APCO's construction is done by the
Solid Construction Company, based in Indiana, a state that does
not require an organization to publish its · Board of Directors or
its stockholders. So we don't know who the major stockholders
are. But most of APCO's construction is done by the Solid Construction Company without competitive bidding. Now what does that
sound like? Well, it sounds like the major stockholders of APC
could well be the major stockholders of their own, their own private construction company, just as they had the Franklin Real
Estate Company to, to hold all their land. It was chartered in
Pennsylvania, which does not require them to reveal who their
Board of Directors are. Well, it turned out it was the same batch
of guys running APCO. And they were - uh, theoretically in this
uh, uh controlled monopoly thing, they had a real estate company
working to their advantage and, and the State Securities Commission
told them to get rid of all the real estate they were holding for
profit, because it wasn't fair to be a controlled monopoly and
still have uh, burgeoning real estate values, uh, supporting their
�- 10-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1 , Side B
real estate company and making a pile of money on it . Uh ,
especially when again some of the land they got was, uh , was
acquired by condemnation proceedings . So the whole thing , you
know , I , I don ' t go around saying the r e ' s a big conspiracy , and
big business is out to get us , but there are some big businesses
who will utilize any method to make money off consumers . And
APC has proven itself not to be above doing just that .
Q.
A.
Uh , by decisions, you mean Interior or Congressmen or •..
Q.
Welll , right now I know it ' s up to Kleppe •••
A.
Yes - no, I don ' t think anybody ' s being bought off . I ' ve never
wanted to feel that way about anybody . I know the principles I know that the people who make those decisions don ' t come down
here and sit around uh somebody ' s fireplace and talk about the
problems . They go to cocktail parties where representatives of
APCO talk to them . Uh , obviously the newspaper's been full of
the fact that the various bureaucrats in Washington are invited
to hunting lodges and seashore resorts and all that sort of thing
by big business companies , who support those resorts and those
hunting lodges out of the profits of the company . Uh , APCO had
a , uh , uh , fishing lodge up on Smith Mountain Lake - I think it
was Smith Mountain Lake and it was uh , a real estate . And they
always say, well that was supported out of profits , not out of
the consumers . Where do the profits come from? Absolutely from
the consumers . They ' ve been saying that all this advertising
they ' ve been doing comes out of profits . (laughing) Profits
don ' t come from no place but the pockets of the people who pay
for electricity . So when they use that thing to say that it ' s
not costing the consumers , it ' s just not true . It takes a pretty
sharp pencil to come to that conclusion . But the money all comes
from the comsumers .
Q.
'· .
Do you think some of the people that are going to make the decision about the Project
do you think they are being bought off
too?
Well, you ' ve told us now what the power company does to talk
people into their point of view, what exactly has your committee
in Virginia , what kind of things do they do to get publicity ,
raise support ••• ?
A.
Yes . Uh , we put together a petition and asked Virginians of
voting age to sign petitions and only Virginians of voting age .
And we ' ve put together enough that there are 5 , 000 Virginians
who have signed that . Uh , we sent copies to uh all the Congressmen
to the Department of Interior and to the governor . And after
'
our copies went to the governor , I wrote to Governor Godwin and I
said , " Now , you ' ve got an honest , open expression from 5 , 000
voting Virginians who say , in effect , that you ' re speaking , uh,
when you speak in a court case about being , supporting the Blue
Ridge Project, you are obviously not speaking for an awful lot
of Virginians . And one of our goals is simply to get publicity .
�-11Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side B
Because we feel that anybody whose studies the situation and
learns about the New River and its background, about the methods
that been utilized in the attempt to make it a pump storage
project and the wild promises that have been made to some local
people about how great it's going to be, the more you know about
this, the more you are going to be for the side of preserving
the New River. Uh, I wrote to the governor and said, "Here are
5,000 Virginians who say you are not speaking for us. Who are
you speaking for?" Well, he signed a letter - I, uh I said in
my letter that uh I hoped that he read mail like that, that it
didn't get answered by the same people who made up his policy
statements. So he did sign the letter that came back to me, but
it said that there were three thousand members of the Grayson
County Business Development Association that he had to deal with.
Now, I asked around here, what's the Grayson County Business
Development Association. Most people had never heard of them.
One man said, oh, that was a group of land speculators who put
together a petition some years ago in support of the Blue Ridge
Project. And the president of the Grayson Business Development
Association was, guess who, Fred Bennington - a full time employee
of APC. So I wrote to the governor and I said you made a little
mistake here. There aren't 3,000 members of that committee.
That's ridiculous! There were that many names on that petition
that was put together by some land speculators and real estate
people who hoped to make a dollar out of the plight of their
fellow Grayson countians. And I said even then the president
of the organization was a full time employee of APC. I said,
this is ridiculous. And the letter I got back was not signed
by the governor but by one of his third assistants or something
or other and he said uh, well they's accepted those, uh that
list of membership in good faith and maybe I knew more about it
than they did, but they didn't say that they were going to look
into it. Oh, in my letter I also said that the governor should
take a chance and have a public hearing down here on the subject.
This fella, in his answer, said he'd only been in the state government for a couple of years and he didn't know if there'd been any
public hearings or not. Well, I told him there hadn't been but
he as much as said he wouldn't take my word for it. And the
final thing he said was uh, I don't think you are going to change
the governor's mind. (laughing) So, uh, this is what we're
caught with, uh, uh, a state government that pays no attention.
Now I've said before that when we went down to Raleigh, and this
state Scenic River bill came before the state legislature, uh,
one of the legislators came to me and said "Hey, tell me in five
minutes what this is all about." He said, "I don't know anything
about it." So I told him and he said "Well, I understand." And
I said, well I apologize for all of us in Virginia, because we
can't get any action going like this. And he said, "We couldn't
do it either if it was the Duke Power Company." So he was saying
that he understood why Virginia legislators didn't dare speak
out against people like APC. And I can understand it too. But
I sure wish they would look into the matter pertaining to, uh,
their constituents in Virginia. And especially in the areas that
are going to be most vitally effected by the Blue Ridge Project.
�- 12Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side B
f(
Q.
Why won ' t the people speak out against the power companies?
- the state government ?
A.
Well , the - now they know what kind of r estrictions they must
operate under and if a state legislator in North Carolina tells
me he couldn ' t speak out against Duke Power Company , I can understand that because Duke Power Company carries alot of weight in
the state of North Carolina . And I can understand why a state
legislator in Virginia wouldn ' t speak out against APC . I say
again , these are the people they go the cocktail parties with .
You know, I spent ~O years in the Navy going to cocktail parties
and I know how the bureaucrats work having been one . Un ,
Q.
You committee here - do you work with the committee in North
Carolina?
A.
Oh , we about have to because uh uh , I don ' t know where the committee gets its horsepower but they ' ve got alot of people - they
have an office to work with , uh I ' m the - they ' ve got Joe Mathews
and the Northwest Conservation Economic Development Council or
something . They ' ve got an office , they ' ve got office workers ,
we ' ve got me and that stack over there and a 1·i1e cabinet down
in the basement . And uh , if I want to write a letter , it means
I ' ve got to get my daughter ' s typewriter and uh , you know , uh,
working at a different level . We ' ve got a secretary- treasurer
who is 13 miles that way and uh , I haven ' t seen her in 3 months
I guess . Uh , our organization is not uh , doesn ' t have the , the
equipment , the office nor the headquarters that the North Carolina
committee does . We organized after they organized . And we did
it in response to say " Hey there ' s some of us up here who are with
you ." And uh , uh , the response , of course , all of this is put
out by the North Carolina committee . But uh , the people who are
in favor of the dam in this locality don ' t speak up . And I
wrote a letter for the first time , I saw a post office box for
the Grayson Business Development Association , this week . So I
wrote them a letter and said " Hey ~' and I did it on our letterhead
that lists all our officers, I said , " Please tell me uh where
your office is , who your leaders are , uh , tell me how many members
you've got " and I said in the letter , '' I have a letter from Gov .
Godwin and he thinks you have got 3 , 900 members ." I said "I would
just like to know a little more about you since nobody knows ."
Almost a secret organization . And I have never met anybody who
said to me I am a member of the Grayson Business Development Assoc .
I believe Robert Williams is a member ( laughing) . This is the
fella we ' ve just talked to today about clearing our land and
digging a foundation - he ' s got bulldozers . And he wants to make
money off using his bulldozers if the dam comes through . I ' ll
go along with that . To make a buck is a worthwhile motive as
long as you admit to it . And if APCO wants to make a dollar I
wish they'd say that and knock off all this fallderall about how
good they are going to be to the population of the world . And
the p eople who favor the dam, if they simply say to me I ' m in
favor because I think I ' ll be richer , that ' s the finest motive
in the world , that ' s good old American capitalism and I don ' t
�- 13-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1 , Side B
;)
object to that . But if they tell me I ' m going to be richer too ,
or that I ' m going to benefit by it , I want a little more proof
than has been offered .
Q.
Uh , we were talking about one of the ways to get the dam stopped
is perhaps the archeological studies that have been done but haven ' t
been all that publicized or whatever?
A.
They were not included in the report to the Federal Power Commission .
Q.
Well , I know one of them was done by Dr . Ayers at the school ,
at Appalachian , and uh , I don ' t know exactly what all is involved
in that . But I was wondering if someone like the Smithsonian
Institution has been contacted about it ? Or National Geographic
Magazine ? By the committee to see if they could do something
like fund a big project?
A.
Yeah , I don ' t know .
Q.
I mean , it looks like if anybody could do anything , they maybe
could .
A.
Uh huh . That phase of it is controversial , for several reasons .
One is uh , this doctor came down and made an archeological survey
which was required . APC had to fund it and they did a couple of
them at different times and they had to pay the money for it and
yet they were very cursory . You know , a couple of weeks was the
most that was spent on it . And yet they uncovered so many sites
and so many things were found and uh , one of the problems was
that Appalachian has used is that uh , this Dr . Ayers , is that his
name? He requested that those sites be kept secret - that they
not be published so that people wouldn ' t get in there and start
tearing them up looking for things . Uh , APC said the reason they
didn ' t put these in the report was that , because he had asked
for secrecy . Well , now the wholE: thing has been .
. braadcast
and everybody knows about it , but nobody knows where they are
yet . Appalachian ' s arguement doesn ' t hold water . They could
have talked about the archeological findings without revealing
the sites because those sites haven ' t been revealed yet . Nobody
knows where they are .
except that fella and whoever • s got the
report at APCO . So they certainly could have made those things ,
made the knowledge about them available without giving up any
secrets , as I say . So that ' s a little bit of a controversial
things . Some people say well if you look hard enough along almost
any river in the country you ' ll find things like this . Well ,
that may or may not be true . We know we found them here , we
don ' t know they can be found along the Adkin or
along the ,
what is up at Charleston , the Canawa .
Q.
I was thinking about , uh , a professor came to talk to us at
school from Winston-Salem or somewhere . He was telling us about
the Nile River . or course , that this is the second oldest river
in the world , well you know about the pyramids and everything
�;J
- 14-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1, Side B
Q.
along the Nile .
A.
Yes . The Aswan Dam was built on the Nile and it flooded many
ancient archeological sites and they were - they collected money
all over the world from interested people to move some of those
things . But what they covered up that hadn ' t been dug up yet ,
no telling how much . So , uh , uh , this is an important item because people do pay attention to holding onto our history and
our culture and our heritage .
Q.
Well , do you have any more questions (to Mike)? We were just
mostly interested in what you were doing here in Virginia ...
Well if you don ' t have anything more to add - I know you could
talk probably along time about the River -
A.
Well , these things go on . The best deal is to get in a canoe
and go down the River . We had at school here yesterday - I got
hold of a film entitled " A Man and the River " and it ' s done by
the Environmental Protection Agency , you know Thomas Hart Benton
is an old Missouri artist and I ' m a Missouri boy and used to see
all his paintings - he ' s great on murals and Thomas Hart Benton
died just a couple of years ago , yesterday we got the Reader ' s
Digest and there ' s a big long article about Thomas Hart Benton
in Reader ' s Digest . It ' s a pretty good article . But this film
uh , was done by the EPA uh and I don ' t know what their purpose
was but it showed alot of his works , his paintings and his
drawings but interspersed with him floating in a canoe down the
Buffalo River in the Ozarks of Missouri which is one of the
rivers that has been protected against dams by being included
in the National Scenic River System and it looks just like the
New River . Just exactly like it . And uh , uh , I was never on the
Buffalo but I ' ve been on the Current River and the White River
and alot of rivers down in southern Missouri years ago and uh ,
I was really tickled toget this film that depicts - in fact , if
our daughter didn ' t take it to high school to show it , it ' s in
there on the table now . But it ' s just a , a good emotional impact
when you see , here is this old fella up in his eighties , paddling
down the river and making drawings of the things on it because
he ' s got a real interest in keeping some rivers like they were .
The Federal Power Commission has one job and that ' s to find power.
And yet they give them , theoretically , the total say so on where
they ' ll slap dams around the country without every considering
the heritage of the people or the land or the agriculture or anything else and the ~whole history of the Federal Power Commission
they ' ve turned down ~ two applications for dams and approved every
other one . Now that ' s stupid because - and then uh uh , several
people have said , well the Federal Power Commission ought
to have the authority to say this because they were created by
Congress to do that job and Congress ought not to step in and say
no when they make a decision . Why absolutely Congress ought to .
Anytime I ' ve got a guy working for me and he botches a job I
either fire him or straighten him out , you know . You don ' t just
say I gave him a job and if he does it wrong why I don ' t have
any right to correct it . Congress established the FPC to do a
job but that job is only recently were there any requirement for
About how .•.
�- 15-
Hal Eaton
Tape 1 , Side B
I
environmental impact statement . That ' s a new emphasis we ' ve got .
Uh , did you hear that story about Moses led the people of Israel
out of Egypt right up to the Red Sea and the army of Phar oh
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Efird, Jane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Eaton, Hal
Interview Date
2/19/1976
Number of pages
15 pages
Date digitized
9/22/2014
File size
14.1MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
d44665da49f6e6f0e7949daa692731d1
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape339_HalEaton_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Hal Eaton [Feburuary 19, 1976]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Efird, Jane
Eaton, Hal
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Appalachian Power Company
Blue Ridge Project
Water resources development--New River Valley (N.C.-W. Va.)
Environmentalism
Eaton, Hal--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Interview about Appalachian Power Company's attempt to create a dam on the New River, near Grayson County, Virginia and the community's battle to keep them out.
American Electric Power Company
APC
Appalachian Power Company
Bath County
Blue Ridge Project
dams
Duke Power Company
Environmental Protection Agency
Federal Power Commission
Flater Lake
Grayson Business Development Association
Grayson County Va.
Hal Eaton
Holsten Reservoir
House of Representatives
Mouth of Wilson
New River
New River fight
North Carolina
Northwest Conservation Economic Development Council
Raleigh
Roanoke River
Roanoke Times
Scenic River bill
Scenic River System
Smith Mountain Lake
State Highway Department
Stephen Neal
Tennessee Valley Authority
Virginia
Virginia Electric Power Company
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/985c6b27c1b3e0fce772f655de9df7e1.pdf
00dac7d1e85328ad91f4303073877ab3
PDF Text
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Andrew Jackson Greene Collection
Description
An account of the resource
The Andrew Jackson Greene Collection consists of more than 160 diaries written by Greene who describes Watauga County's education system, including Appalachian State Teachers College, cultural and religious life, and agriculture from 1906 to 1942. <br /><br /><strong>Biographical Note.</strong> Andrew Jackson Greene (March 2, 1883-August 12, 1942) was a life-long resident of Watauga County, North Carolina and instructor in several Watauga schools including Appalachian State Teachers College (A.S.T.C). Greene worked as a farmer, public school teacher, and college professor. Greene was an enthusiastic diarist maintaining regular entries from 1906 to the day before his death. He also recorded A.S.T.C. faculty meetings from January 9, 1915 to May 3, 1940. He married Polly Warren, and they had three children, Ralph, Maxie, and Lester.
Contributor
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Greene, Andrew Jackson, 1883-1942
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/190">AC.105: Andrew Jackson Greene Collection</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1906-1942
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">No Copyright - United States</a>
Document
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Number of pages
82
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Diary of Andrew Jackson Greene, Volume 44 [November 14, 1921 - April 13, 1922]
Creator
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Greene, Andrew Jackson, 1883-1942
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Andrew Jackson Greene Collection, 1906-1942" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/190" target="_blank">Andrew Jackson Greene Collection, 1906-1942</a>
Date
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1921-1922
Extent
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78.2MB
Language
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English
Identifier
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105_044_1921_1114_1922_0413
Description
An account of the resource
This diary includes daily entries from November 14, 1921 through April 13, 1922. Each day Greene recorded his daily activities including his duties as a teacher, his work as a preacher, and his visits with friends. He also included information about the weather, different churches in the community, and community events.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Baptists--Clergy--North Carolina--Watauga County
Greene, Andrew Jackson, 1883-1942
Type
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Text
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">No Copyright – United States</a>
Format
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Diaries
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
<a title="Andrew Jackson "Greene collection" href="https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/collections/show/39" target="_blank"> Andrew Jackson Greene collection </a>
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Watauga County (N.C.)
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
<a title="https://www.geonames.org/4497707/watauga-county.html" href="https://www.geonames.org/4497707/watauga-county.html" target="_blank"> https://www.geonames.org/4497707/watauga-county.html</a>
Baptist State Convention
Burlington
Churches
Community
Durham
Greensboro
Local
Newton
Pastor J.E. Hoyle
Preacher
President Dougherty
Professor B.B. Dougherty
Raleigh
Rocky Mount
Snow
Statesville
teacher
Weather
Winston-Salem
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d1b0eceb7939c141d86afdfa8b3f0351.mp3
1bf3afafde201140bb158c57f413fcd9
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0f109f4181c2be7229592582411c0a85.pdf
ad1a982ce0b34856ae1c574f119229de
PDF Text
Text
Military Oral History Interview Transcript
Barry Craig Forrest
Robbins, North Carolina
16 October 2011
WF: William C. Forrest
BF: Barry C. Forrest
JC: James Wesley Cain, another veteran.
WF: My name is William Cameron Forrest, I am interviewing Barry Craig Forrest, the date is
October 16th, 2011, the place is Robbins, North Carolina and this is part of an oral history
project for History 3823. Okay to begin, how did you join the military?
BF: I joined the military while I was in college. I enlisted in the North Carolina State University
Army ROTC program, and a month later I also enlisted in the North Carolina National Guard.
WF: Why did you choose to do ROTC rather than just enlist?
BF: Well, I had always wanted to be an officer, I wanted to be a tank and armor officer, and that
was the reason.
WF: Why did you choose the National Guard over the active duty Army?
BF: I chose the Guard over the active duty Army because the active duty Army would have had
to do a lot of traveling, and it made sense to me at the time so that I could help the people of the
state North Carolina better if I were in the National Guard as opposed to in in the active duty.
Plus, I was in college at the time.
WF: So you were living on the campus at NC State?
BF: No, I was living in an apartment in Raleigh about two miles off campus.
WF: Why did you pick the service branch you joined?
BF: I had always been a student of history; I had studied the tank battles of World War Two, and
was interested in armor warfare, so I enlisted as an armor officer.
WF: Do you recall your first days after enlisting?
BF: Somewhat…it was kind of confusing. I didn't course I didn't know anything about the
military not having come from a military family. I was just doing what they told me to do I and
then try to figure out what to do next.
WF: When did you join?
1
�BF: I joined in September 1980.
WF: What did it feel like?
BF: It felt good. I didn't have any qualms like some people do about joining the military, it was
always an exciting life for me I was happy.
WF: Was it something you had always wanted to do?
BF: Yes, I had always wanted to join. I always wanted to be of service to people to try to help
people, and through the military I thought I could be of the best service to the people that I grew
up with the people of my state and the people of my country.
WF: What about your training experiences, do you remember any of those?
BF: I had a number of training experiences over the 28 years I was in the Army. Initial training
experiences I had were while I was with the National Guard I would go to drills, and this was
before I had any formal military schooling other than just some classes through the ROTC
program. I remember being on the tanks out in the woods in at Fort Bragg doing our weekend
training and then doing our two week annual training periods being very exciting times, a lot of
interesting things happening.
Of course this is typical military stuff you know you go out there and it's a lot of hurry up and
wait an you hurry to get somewhere and then you might wait around a couple hours before you
do anything and then you might only do something for just a brief period and then you're back to
waiting again. But all in all I enjoyed it, I felt like I learned a lot…like it was something I was
good at.
WF: What did you have to do to become an armor officer?
BF: To become an armor officer I had to be of course enlisted in the army, and then when I
completed my school at NC State University. I finished the ROTC program I went to the armor
officer basic course was what it was called in 1983 at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I was there that was
a four month course for second lieutenants and I was there from July of 1983 until the end of
October 1983.
WF: Do you remember any of your training instructors, ROTC, or otherwise?
BF: Let's see I had a Major Van Horn he was a ROTC instructor. The trainers at Fort Knox, I
don't remember any specific names of people for; well I take that back we had a Marine
instructor that was our small group instructor when I went to the advance course in 1989…his
name was Marty. He was a captain at the time he was he was a pretty good guy. He was a
Marine armor officer. He was a unique individual (laughs). I don't know how you'd say it kind of
a hard charging guy.
2
�His nickname was “Thumper.” He got that nickname because when he was a tank company
commander in the Marine Corps. He had a particular private who was always giving him
problems. So finally this private had just given him enough problems that it was the straw that
broke the camel's back. He called the private over to his tank and got him behind the tank and he
said, "Private this bolt is loose tighten it." His first sergeant went to the private and said, "No sir,
it's not it's not loose." Then said, "Get a little closer and look at it."
So the private gets a little closer and said, "No, I sir I can't see a loose bolt anywhere." The
lieutenant said, "Get a little closer." By this time the private got fairly close to the back end of the
tank. The lieutenant reached over and grabbed the guy’s hand and his head…and thumped his
head up against the side of the tank. And (laughs) lesson learned for the private and from that
point on he was called “Thumper.”
WF: Interesting, so you mentioned you had 20 plus years in the military…how did you get
through it?
BF: A lot of patience, a lot of patience. All kinds of people with all kinds of ideas about the way
things should be done or about the way they should be run, and you can issue an order to a
hundred people and you will have a hundred different…versions of how the order should be
executed.
WF: In regards to your experiences in the military did you ever serve during a time of war?
BF: I was in the military from 1980 until 2008…no correction 2009. I served through the little
conflict they had in Grenada, the incursion into Panama and the First Gulf War and the Second
Gulf War.
WF: What was your job or assignment during these wars?
BF: Initially I was an armor officer. I did platoon time as a tank company platoon leader, I was
tank company commander, was the intelligence S-2 officer for the tank battalion. I worked as the
S-1, I did some work in the operation side that was during the First Gulf War by the time the
Second Gulf War rolled around the Army had decided to put me into an engineer. So I was a
combat engineer during the Second Gulf War. I was never mobilized or deployed to either of the
war fronts.
WF: So how did you become an engineer?
BF: I was what they would call a “yellow book engineer,” basically that means that I had been
school trained to be an armor officer. They decided that I needed that they had too many armor
officers they needed engineers. So I had to take correspondence courses to learn how to be a
combat engineer officer. Those correspondence courses are they come in in books that have a
yellow cover on them. So if you do the correspondence courses and you become qualified in
whatever course they are offering you you're a yellow book engineer or yellow book whatever.
And that's the way I got it.
3
�WF: Did you ever have a lot of memorable experiences as an armor officer or an engineer?
BF: Yes, there were a number of different (laughs)…you can't do this kind of job and not have
memories of different things. I remember driving down the interstate, or the autobahn in
Germany in an M-1 Tank at 60-miles an hour passing cars on the side of the road. That was a
unique experience. I remember driving through farmers’ fields in Germany in 1984. The tank
next to me we was driving across a beet field. The tank next to me was throwing what they called
a “rooster tail” behind the tracks of beets and soil. The farmers weren't too happy about that one
either. I remember driving into a German village one night in a column. A company column and
stopping in the village by the British. The British were our opposing forces, by a British patrol.
They had a roadblock set-up and we couldn't go forward and we really didn't have room to back
up the whole company out of the village. I looked off to the left and there was a vacant lot where
I was at and it opened onto open fields out behind just outside the village. So I called the
commander on the radio and told him what I had and he said go with it so we I took my platoon,
we turned left we went into the vacant lot then the whole company followed us out.
We drove through and across this farm field and drove around the village. Next morning we had
to come back through there and the area we had driven through there were foxholes dug all over
the place. We had driven through a British infantry position in the dark (laughs) and had
managed not to run over anybody with 14 M-1 Tanks. I remember getting a M-1 Tank stuck one
time so deep in the ground it took us four hours to pull it out. We had to use three tank retriever
M-88s to do the job. It was just a mess. The tank sank into the dirt so deep that I could step off
the top of the off the hull of the tank right onto the surface of ground it was just level.
WF: I stuck one up like that (laughing).
BF: Oh?
WF: Broke the track on it.
BF: Yes.
WF: In the mud and it took us to about midnight to get it out and get it back home.
BF: Yes, I remember going being at Fort Hood and doing some of the lanes. Some of the lanes
training and some of the gunnery training down there. I remember sleeping in the camp area by
my tank and hearing something rattling around in our garbage and looking up and there was a
cow walking through the area getting into the garbage ah bags over there trying to look for
something eat. I remember a guy getting bit by a bat while he was riding in his tank. He was
riding with the hatch open they drove under a tree and dislodged the bat it fell in the vehicle with
him and bit him on the arm. He had to have rabies treatments.
WF: So where have you gone overseas in the military?
4
�BF: During my time in the military I have been to Germany twice. I was there for different
things, different reasons in Germany. I went to a conference. I was in Korea for just a real short
span I was just over there for a conference. The rest of the time most of the rest of my travels
have all been inside the continental US.
WF: So what kind of a conference was it that you attended in Korea?
BF: It was a conference to plan two exercises that were coming up we went to this conference. I
went to the conference in February and the exercise was going to take place in August. The time
change between North Carolina and Korea was horrendous. I was always ready to go. I went to
bed every day at five o'clock and woke up every morning at three o'clock. While I was there the
climate was nice it must have been, must have been March cause it was not really cold march or
April that I was there not February.
Because it wasn't really cold when I was there, it was cold enough that they had the heat on in
the hotel we stayed in Seoul (clock chimes) Lord they had the heat turned up to probably a
hundred degree I slept on top of the covers. I remember the riot police being around all of the
gates to the base that we were or the post we were working off of. They are at least a squad at
every entrance to the base because they had protestors that would come and protest in front of
the bases.
I got to see I got an understanding for if you study history when they invaded Korea, when
McArthur came into Korea and he did the amphibious invasion they talked about the tides were a
big factor well I didn't understand that until you go out and you look at the when you leave Seoul
and go to airport you have to go by the ocean or by the across the bay.
Well, depending on what time of day there if you are there at one time in the day there is just
miles and miles of water if you come by at another time of the day it's just miles and miles of
mudflat so and I'm you know it's like knee deep mud you ain't nobody's going to get across that
in a boat or a vehicle or walking anytime soon so that gave me an appreciation for why they ha
why the tides were so important in that particular operation.
WF: While you were overseas did you receive any medals or citations for your actions?
BF: I did not receive any medals or citations for actions done while I was overseas. My highest
awards have been a Meritorious Service Medal. I have three of these; mostly for just service at
whatever job I happened to be doing at the time. I got a Meritorious Service Medal for service in
an infantry brigade, another for service in an engineer brigade, and for service working in the
National Guard headquarters in Raleigh.
WF: While overseas how did you stay in touch with your family?
BF: When I was in Korea you could just buy a pre-paid phone card and you could dial home
with that that was pretty neat. When I was in Germany I wrote letters. That was pretty much
before they had all these new cell phones and that was in 1984 there were you had to go to a
5
�hardened phone facility to do to call home an everything we I didn't really have time to do that I
mostly was by letter.
WF: Did you like the food overseas?
BF: Yes I did. I liked I liked the German food was all right. I'm not a particular fan of spaetzle
but European foods are good. I liked jaeger schnitzel and things like that. The schnitzel was
pretty good. What's that Hungarian soup? Anyhow there was some soups I liked really liked over
there the Korean food was ok. It was pretty good, I like I like Asian foods anyway.
WF: They didn't have a dog in it?
BF: No, I ate at a Korean restaurant just a little ways down the street from my hotel. At least the
menus were in English so I could read what I was getting. Because I had been warned that you
had to be careful because there's bologna and bologna or something like that and one of the other
of them was dog. And I didn't want to eat any dog. But I found the food pretty good I could eat
just about anywhere in the world I think.
WF: Did you feel any pressure or stress while overseas?
BF: No real stress while I was overseas. Like I said they were short assignments and I was pretty
well prepared for both assignments. At the time in Germany I probably had the most fun. Driving
tanks across the countryside that was (laughs) I enjoyed that.
WF: What did you do to entertain yourself while overseas?
BF: There wasn't a lot to do in Korea. They had a street called Taiwan Street there in Seoul. It
was like a little small shopping district. That you could go up there and I could walk up there and
walk around and look at the shops and so some stuff like that and they had a they had a history
museum not far from the just outside the gate of the post I was at.
I went there and then I walked around on the post some and looked around there that was about it
for German, for Korea. In Germany, just the looking at the countryside moving around a lot
talking to the people. Because I, a number of the Germans speak English pretty well. It was
pretty interesting plus I spoke a little German at the time. That helped some.
WF: Did you take any photographs of your experiences overseas?
BF: I have photographs of I have a number of photographs of the German trips. But I don't really
have any pictures of the Korean trip, some not a lot though. I just didn't I didn't take a camera
with me for that one it was just a short trip so I wasn't going to get the tourist do any tourist time
so.
WF: Why did you take pictures while you were overseas, if you did?
6
�BF: Well, most of the things I took pictures of when I was on the trip to with Germany because I
was new to the Army at the time I was just a lieutenant. There was a great opportunity to see
foreign military equipment up close. I took my camera with that, that was my intent when I took
my camera was to take pictures of foreign military equipment, and I wound up taking pictures of
other things like I think I took a picture of every church bell tower in every village we went
through, almost.
And then just pictures of the countryside I thought it was really pretty we were up in the north on
the North German Plain on the Reforger. We were doing up near a place called Wolfe, I think
was the name of it. There is another town there I can't remember the other town. We were
probably 20 kilometers from the East German border at the time at that time the border was still
guarded and they had minefields on the East German side of the border. I we drove right up to
the fence that divided East Germany from West Germany and looked across into East Germany
which we later found out that U.S. Army personnel were not supposed to be within one kilometer
of the fence. So technically we were kind of violating the rules but nobody explained it to us.
WF: What did you think of your officers and fellow soldiers?
BF: I served with some good officers I served with some sorry officers, I've served with some
good enlisted soldiers and some bad enlisted soldiers the good enlisted soldiers you try to hang
onto and you try to promote them up and make sure they have a make sure they have good job
security and a good career progression then the poor ones you try to help them to be better
soldiers and if they refuse to do that you try to limit the damage they can do to your unit, or the
their responsibilities. Until you can get rid of them.
WF: So what positions have you held in the military. What jobs have you progressed through as
you have spent your time in the military?
BF: My career progression was a as a tank platoon leader, tank company executive officer, tank
company commander, a tank armor battalion intelligence officer S-2, was a engineer battalion S1, worked at the engineer at the infantry brigade as a in the operations section 5-3 section, was
the brigade S-1 in the infantry brigade, was the brigade S-1 in the engineer brigade, worked
outside of the S-1, outside the S-11 and was mobilization officer for the state of North Carolina. I
was the person that mobilized probably 90 percent of the units that went to the Second Gulf War.
WF: What was your favorite position in the military?
BF: Tank company commander.
WF: Why did you prefer that position above all the other ones?
BF: Because I was still working on the tanks I still got to be down with the soldiers and work
with the soldiers. I was trained from the beginning and that was the job that I aspired to be was to
be a leader in a tank unit an armor unit. And (clears throat) it was just a challenge to develop the
training and work the tactics and lead the company in tactical situations.
7
�WF: Do you recall the day your service ended?
BF: My service ended 30 September 2008. Not really a big day, it's just when it was the day I
was officially retired. By that time I really didn't like the office jobs. I wanted to be around the
soldiers and be out with the line units. The fighting units, the sharp end of the spear but (cough)
this unit… this job I was doing the year of my retirement was just a desk job and I got to go out
and visit the units, but I didn't get to go with training. I really didn't like that as much but by that
time I was ready to go.
WF: What rank were you when your service ended?
BF: I retired as a lieutenant colonel, 0-5.
WF: Did you ever want to go any higher than that or was that as far as you wanted to go?
BF: I always wanted to go higher. I did not get to be a tank company or a tank battalion
commander. But there was only one battalion in the state and there were just so many people that
wanted to be in command. So many better connections than I did there was no way I was going
to get it so I just had to live with it.
WF: So you mentioned you were in the National Guard, did you have another job while you
were in the military?
BF: Well, when I was for the last 20 years I was in the military service I was on active duty with
the guard. I was what they call an active duty Guard Reserve, an AGR soldier. The first eight
years I was a traditional Guardsman. That means I had a two-day drill every month and a
fourteen-day annual training period in a year. During that time I worked as a land surveyor,
doing survey work.
WF: What did you do after your military service ended?
BF: The first year after it ended I just kind of lived the retired life. I took the children to school.
WF: And then had to get two jobs?
BF: Lay around the house, and then I managed to find me another job. As a military contractor
working with the Robin Sage exercise in the Special Forces qualification course.
WF: Why did you choose to go to work as a military contractor after retirement?
BF: Because it gave me a chance to be back with at the soldier level of the military training.
And it was an opportunity to be able to just be back near combat level type assignment. Plus it
was working with Special Forces those guys are always cool.
WF: You know he sent some Special Forces to Africa?
8
�BF: Yes.
WF: So would you say the military has become a lasting effect on your life?
BF: Yes, it has.
WF: Why do you think it has?
BF: I have been places and seen things and talked to people that I would never have done if I had
not been in the military. I mean it's a job with benefits. These trying times with jobs and all there
are not many people that I can say they've got a job that has full medical benefits and full
housing benefits and a death gratuity if you die.
WF: Did you make any really close friends while you were in the service?
BF: Yes, I made a number of them.
WF: Do you still continue these relationships?
BF: Yes, I do. Don't get to see all of them as much as I used to, but I talk to them infrequently.
Some more than others.
WF: Have you made a lot of relationships as a military contractor as well?
BF: Yes, I have. Lots of different people mostly retired people that work as contractors doing
this job and some of the active duty soldiers that work as cadre for the lane. They're all good
folks I liked working with them.
WF: Did you join a veteran's organization?
BF: I joined the American Legion.
WF: In the veteran’s organization what kinds of activities does your post or association have?
BF: Oh they have a number of different activities. They meet a lot of times when they are having
meetings so I don't get to go to the meetings. But they do fish fries. I participate in the fish fries,
and they sponsor baseball teams stuff like that. I've not done much work with a ball team but I've
helped them with a fish fry some.
WF: Is there anything else you would like to add to this interview?
BF: No, I would say that probably my one regret from military service was that I never ever
served in any of the conflicts ever. That was not my desired path when I entered the military. If
there was a conflict I was going to serve in it. I wanted to be part of history (clock chimes) and
because when they occurred and the assignments I was in at the time, I did not get to serve in
those conflicts.
9
�WF: Thank you for your time.
10
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers.
Copyright Notice:
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC).
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Forrest, Barry Craig
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Forrest, William
Interview Date
10/11/16
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
29:22 min
Copyright
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used.
Tag
Robbins, NC State University, ROTC, National Guard, armor, officer, Fort Knox, Germany, Fort Hood, Korea
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Barry Craig Forrest, 16 October 2011
Subject
The topic of the resource
National Guard
Gulf War, 1980-1988
Iraq War, 2003-2011
Forrest, Barry Craig
Veterans
Personal narratives, American
United States
Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Barry Craig Forrest, interviewed by William C. Forrest, enlisted in the NC State University ROTC and the NC National Guard in 1980. He served 28 years in the Army as an armor officer and combat engineer. Although he served in the First and Second Gulf War, in this interview he mainly discusses his service in Germany.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Forrest, Barry Craig
Forrest, William C.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a>
Extent
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10 Pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
armor officer
Fort Bragg
Gulf War
NC National Guard
platoon
Raleigh
yellow book engineer