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https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0c022a900b97c793a5c5b344aa5cbefe.MP3
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https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a78400ad986eed4ab3335fc4d19d88c2.pdf
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John Curnes
Military History 3823-Dr. Browning
Transcript of Oral History Interview with Don Sutherland
March 8, 2010 Recorded in Palm Springs, CA
John Curnes: Okay, this is John Curnes interviewing Don Sutherland at the Palm Springs
World War II Museum Airport and he' s just going to tell us about his experience.
Don Sutherland: Ok. The Germans were very famous for their deadly frontal attacks and what
they would do; they would come at you nose to nose. About a thousand yards out, they would
turn upside down and fire a 20mm cannon at the front of the plane trying to blow it up. And
while they are still upside down, they would just split off down like through our formation and
that is when it became my turn as the ball turret gunner, which I will come back to.
This is what the Germans were shooting at us. This is a 20mm cannon with an explosive
warhead, and this is what we were shooting back at them with, a 50 caliber machine gun. Our
machine guns were somewhat effective and that will be explained up there.
On the ball turret gunner the first question that everyone wants to know is how do I get in, and
when do I get in? First let me say that from the radio room back there are four gunners only: the
ball turret, the two waist, and the tail. And no gunner was at his position during takeoff or
landing. We were all inside the radio room for the center of gravity purposes. And then after we
get up to about to 8 to 10,000 feet then we put in our oxygen masks, plug in our main source of
oxygen, plug in a heater cord when, this plane wasn' t pressurized but that will be explained up
there, and we were ready to go to work.
Now to get in, what I do is I rotate that ball around so that the two guns are pointed to the right
side of the plane. Thus it puts that little opening of the hatch on the left side of the plane. Then I
rotate the ball 90 degrees so the guns were straight down of the ground simultaneously bringing
the opening of the hatch up inside the plane. Then I stand on a little ledge on the left side of the
plane then I have gravity in my favor to lower myself down into the fetus position. Ha if you
were to go over there now and get down on your knees and look up high in front of you, you
would see two metal half-moon clamps, that's what my heels are sitting in, and the left leg also
worked the range. But to save your knees and time, I will show you forward. Right in front of
my fmger, you will see the bottom of my shoe.
John Curnes: wow
Don Sutherland: Now in the fourteen years I have been at this museum I have had a lot of
people refer to me as being nuts.
�John Curnes: (John laughing)
Don Sutherland: I am crazy. That has to be a suicide mission, that has to be the most
dangerous job on the whole plane. I have heard them all, I disagree with them all. And I will
clarify by simple saying this: I feel that all ten men on this plane is just as vulnerable as the next
guy, it just depends upon where you are at that split second, because here the Germans were
shooting flak up at us from the ground, they are trying to blow the framing off with a 20mm.
They were also famous for their side attacks. Their bullets would go through this aluminum with
no problem. A lot of radiomen and waist gunners got hit. But all that silver that you see down
there, the entire ball is made of steel and reinforced Plexiglas. So if a bullet is at the right angle it
deflects and keeps on going.
John Curnes: Urn-Hum
Don Sutherland: Flak, flak again would go through this aluminum very easily. All nine men up
there had to wear a steel helmet and a flak vest. But then again that steel would protect against
flak unless it hit the Plexiglas then that could be a new story.
Now in the morning after everyone would suit up, the last article they would put on is their
parachute harness, but they would hand carry their chest pack parachute around with them. If
you are walking to the front of the plane for any reason you always had that parachute in your
hand. However the ball turret gunners which I was, we were the only ones that had a choice.
And I chose to wear the backpack version. Now the backpack parachute' s a little bit smaller
which means you fall a little bit faster, especially if you' re a little bit heavier.
Don Sutherland: But I never had that problem. And no I never jumped so don' t ask. (John
Laughs) Folded up it was like a three inch mattress. So therefore what I do is remove the back
bumper brace which you see in plane and would lay directly against that steel door which made
me very comfortable laying down on the job. But to be serious. Say the plane did get us up into
some trouble and the pilot hits the ball out button. There are basically only two ways out. Here
or the exit way back there. If the bomb bay doors happen to be open you could go through those.
If there was a big hole in the side of the plane maybe you could jump out through that too. But
picture this you' ve got nine other guys all up there in a state of panic, Get me out of here first, no
me first! I mean its human nature. Here I am sitting all by myself with my hands above my head
holding on to my pistol grips. Now let me explain this, the pistol grips serves as the same
purpose as the steering wheel on your car. One pistol grip makes the ball revolve 360 degrees
round. The other makes the guns go up and down 90 degrees. It's all hydraulic and electrically
driven and believe me they were very sensitive to the touch. Ok, so again my hands are up here
on my steering wheel ..... all I have to do is remove my two thumbs reach back turn two levers
and the door falls open and I'm out with it.
John Curnes: Hm-Hum
�..
..
Don Sutherland: Now can anyone here convince me that that is the most dangerous part in the
whole plane? I mean sure a round can come up and make a direct hit on me, just because why,
because I was at the wrong place at the wrong second. But I would rather have that steel wrapped
around me than this.
John Curnes: Urn hum. Did you practice parachuting out of the ball turret?
Don Sutherland: No, in gunnery school we did not. We were told how to use them but we never
actually jumped off a high tower. But what we did have for the ball turret gunners was this. We
had a mock up of these things, with all of the controls attached to show us how to get in and out,
which pistol grip worked which, and all that kind of stuff. Then eventually we shot at stationary
targets and then eventually we got in a real live plane and we shot at a towing target. And if
anyone makes the mistake and shoots that pilot, we are in trouble.
John Curnes: laughs. And that shot 9mm rounds?
Don Sutherland: No, they are all 50 caliber.
John Curnes: All 50 caliber?
Don Sutherland: All thirteen guns in this plane are 50 caliber. All made by the Browning
machine gun company. Each gun was capable of shooting off 14 rounds a second. Can you
imagine one second? I can't even move my hand fourteen times in one second. Now every fifth
bullet was a tracer bullet. Tracer bullet leaves that little trail of white smoke so you that you can
see what you are aiming at and they were painted black on the tip. Next to that there were two
red ones which were phosphorus for starting fires. Next to that was two blue ones which were
armor piercing. Then again the fifth one which was a tracer bullet. So if a gunner held his
fmger on the trigger for only five seconds, 70 of these things would have gone out there with
every fifth one as a tracer. In my case I had dual guns, so that's a 140 rounds in five seconds with
every fifth one as a tracer. Remember that German plane that I told you was upside down going
through our formation? He is going some 300 miles plus in one direction. We're going almost
200 in the other direction. So with that kind of firepower and all those tracers its unbelievable
if I get to hit him.
But again the Germans were also smart by adding extra armament on the very bottom side of
their plane. So if tried aiming at the center of the plane with the hopes of getting the pilot in the
fantail, I am wasting my time, so we were always trained to aim for their engine or the wings
where the gas tanks are. Shoot the tail off.
And last but not least is the muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity simply means that as each bullet
leaves the tip ofthe barrel they are travelling at the speed of 1977 miles per hour, or 2900 feet in
one second. Now if you were to double that, that's over a mile in two seconds. Can you imagine
that?
�John Curnes: Wow.
Don Sutherland: That' s really travelling.
John Curnes : Urn-Hum.
Don Sutherland: I understand also that if there is no trees and bushes and that around, you
know, flat land, one mile away, a man could stand or, and this could still get you and kill you.
John Curnes: Urn-hum. Wow. That's a lot of them.
Don Sutherland: That's a lot of firepower. You get one, two, three, maybe even four gunners
all aiming at the same target, shooting off fourteen rounds a second, hopefully someone' s gonna
get hit. And I guess that' s why they referred to this plane as the Flying Fortress.
John Curnes: Wow.
Don Sutherland: When this plane was fust designed in 1935 they actually believed that it was
indestructible.
John Curnes: Urn-Hum.
Don Sutherland: But we soon learned after the beginning of the war the plane was not
indestructible.
John Curnes: Urn-Hum.
Don Sutherland: The Germans were excellent fighter pilots. They had excellent planes and
they knew how to use them. Because by that time, they've already had three years of experience
tucked under their belts. But until we got fighter escort over to Berlin and back, then is when we
gained air superiority and eventually Germany surrendered.
John Curnes: Urn-Hum. Did you ever experience the ME jet that the Germans had?
Don Sutherland: No, because I got over there at the tail end of the war. I saw my action in
Korea on the ground.
John Curnes: Okay.
Don Sutherland: I will say this though. It was a ball turret gunner on the B-17 that shot down
the fust German jet.
John Curnes: Oh wow. Do you think the, did the, did the jet planes use that same tactic where
they rolled over and
Don Sutherland: Yep.
�:
John Curnes: Go through the ...
Don Sutherland: Yep. Because if you, well first of all, travelling at 300 miles an hour you
better get out of the way pretty soon. To do this, this, this, (gesturing), I meant that's hard to
do. When you are upside down you just roll and go on. And also they had extra armament on
the bottom. If they didn' t turn upside down, one of our gunners could hit the pilot in the head.
John Curnes: Urn-Hum.
Don Sutherland: So, that' s why. But the Germans, they did they same, same thing.
John Curnes: Did you uh, did you ever, so they didn't use the B-17 during the Korean War?
Don Sutherland: No.
John Curnes: No.
Don Sutherland: No. After Germany surrendered, they sent all the B-17s home to Kingman,
Arizona to be re-chopped up and melted down. I took this picture myself in 1947. This is up at
Kingman, Arizona. Now the picture really should be larger, but there is 8000 of these planes
waiting there to be melted down.
John Curnes: Hum.
John Curnes: Yeah, looks like palm springs.
Don Sutherland: This is Kingman, Arizona. That' s the gunnery school that I went to.
John Curnes: Now did have a., did you name your plane?
Don Sutherland: I didn' t no. The pilot names the plane.
John Curnes: Mhmm. What was your planes name?
Don Sutherland: Ah it was called "Dry Martini and the Cocktail Kids," because you see the
pilot has, hes the captain, just liked the captain of a boat. So he gets to name his own plane. And
now his last name just happened to be Martini. So he named the plane at frrst "The Dry Martini"
and the emblem instead of painting a girl on it he painted a cocktail glass and that was it "The
Dry Martini" that's it.
John Curnes: Mhmm.
Don Sutherland: But everybody else wanted in on the action too, so they called it "The Dry
Martini and the Cocktail Kids"
John Curnes: That' s Funny.
�:
John Curnes: Well thank you very much.
Don Sutherland: You are welcome.
Picture 1: B-17 "Miss Angela" In WWII Air Museum Palm Springs, CA
Picture 2: Front ofthe B-17 Flying Fortress
�Picture 3: Ball Turret Gun
Picture 4: Don Sutherland Holding a 20mm cannon bullet alongside a 50mm bullet shell.
�Picture 4: Inside the radio room of a B-17
�..
•.
Picture 5: Rear view of the B-17.
Picture 6: Ball Turret
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers.
Copyright Notice:
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC).
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Sutherland, Don
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Curnes, John
Interview Date
3/8/2010
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
0:12:46
File name
2013_063_Sutherland_Donald_interview
2013_063_Sutherland_Don_transcript
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Don Sutherland, 8 March 2010
Creator
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Curnes, John
Sutherland, Don
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a>
Rights
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Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used.
Extent
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9 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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Sound
Subject
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Palm Springs Air Museum
World War, 1939-1945
Veterans
Sutherland, Don
Personal narratives, American
United States
Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Don Sutherland describes his experiences with the B17 Flying Fortress in a museum in Palm Springs. Thought to be indestructible in 1935, it played a large part in defeating the German fighter pilots.
B17 Flying Fortress
ball turret
Don Sutherland
flak
gunnery school
Palm Springs Museum Airport
tracer bullet