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Interview with Mrs. Ethel Burns by Pat Morgan
I.
Childhood
A.
B.
C.
II.
C.
D.
E.
F.
V.
VIII.
(L)
Made small profits on large sales
Sold from catalogues
Not so money conscious
Did not take advantage of the rich
(S)
Older people with no children
Not many young people her age
Years being discussed
A.
B.
(L)
Community club
Carnival in the Park
1. jobs for local people
2. money for library
Feeling of inferiority of local people
Holthozers were accepted in their homes
Tourists as church workers
Local people's living depended on tourists
Types of tourists
A.
B.
VII.
Born in Rowan Co.
Moved to Blowing Rock
Father's business
A.
B.
C.
D.
VI.
(S)
Relationships to tourists
A.
B.
(S)
1915 - '20; age 10 or 12
Born in 1908
Change to need for money (S)
A.
(S)
Independent man
Story about Mrs. Cone
His love for mountains
His desire to build an inn
Father's background
A.
B.
IV.
Family
Involvement with tourists
Feelings about tourists
1. "summer people"
2. tourists in the home
Father's attitudes toward the tourists
A.
B.
C.
D.
III.
(S)
Father not money minded
)
�B.
C.
D.
IX.
Sunshine Inn and Mrs. Burns
A.
B.
X.
XII.
XVI.
(S)
No interference from government
Health department standards
(L)
Paid as a team--$25/week
Increase in pay over the years--$100/wk each
Loyal and hard workers
Discipline
A.
B.
(S)
Not cut out to be a boss
Did not scold individually
Work done by the Burns
A.
B.
C.
(L)
Year-round job
Waitresses went to school
Cooks went home
1. John and Maggie Jones
2. Room behind kitchen for summer
The Jones
A.
B.
C.
XV.
(S)
Nothing in town
Playing of games in dining room
Inn grew
A.
B.
XIV.
Description
Everyone was part of the family
Did all their own work
Waitress work
Guests stayed sometimes two months
$15.00 per week to stay
Meals at the inn
Closing at Labor Day
A.
B.
C.
XIII.
(L)
Entertainment
A.
B.
(S)
Father built in 1929
The Depression: the move to Blowing Rock
The inn
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
XI.
Others started seasonal rates
Yen for money grew
Father was a fair businessman
1. Taught children not to use credit
2. Most important lesson
(S)
Husband was dishwasher
She was maid
Work got easier
�XVII.
Guests' attitudes
A.
B.
C.
XVIII.
XIX.
E.
C.
D.
(L)
Jones felt too inferior to associate
Very humble
Jones boy could not play with Burns boy
Maggie couldn't understand any kind of segregation
John was afraid
1. Experience when Holthozer's store was built
2. Negroes were stoned
(L)
No bookkeeping
Not much attention to profit or loss
Experience taught her to estimate
Salesmen started to sell by portions
1. Bigger profit for inn
2. She didn't like that method
Wanted only enough money to get through winter
1. No money in bank
2. Watauga Savings and Loan
Change in tourist business
A.
B.
XXIII.
Couple had too much breakfast
Complained and unsatisfied
Left without paying
Business attitudes
A.
B.
C.
D.
XXII.
(S)
Jones' relationship to the guests and the Burns
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
XXI.
(S)
Jewish family unfriendly
Another family criticized service
Funny things
A.
B.
C.
XX.
Stayed long time
Mr. Dillon
1. disappointed at first
2. began to like it
3. came back year after year
Most of the guests were satisfied
Unpleasant things
A.
B.
(L)
(L)
1969--retirement after 40 years work
Transits people
1. Biggest change
2. Always on the go
3. More incontentment
Trade has more than doubled
1. Land of Oz
2. Tweetsie
Still room for improvement
Advertising
(S)
�A.
B.
C.
.XX:IV .
Difference in family- owned and non- family-owned business (L)
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
XXV .
B.
D.
Senator ' s son was coming
Mrs . Burns agrees to impress him
He came early
1 . tables wer e shoved together for lunch
2 . very informal
He didn ' t seem to mind
(S)
Didn ' t have any
Mr . Burns fixed up intercom
Bad response--idea dropped
Auctions
Movies
Other
Interference from government
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
X.XX: .
(S)
Guests found other entertainment
A.
B.
C.
.XX:IX .
Different games
1 . "Pig"
2 . Post Offi ce
Disturbed a guest one night
1 . he complained
2.
soon forgot about it
Music
A.
B.
C.
XXVIII .
( S)
Informality of the Inn
A.
B.
C.
.XX:VII .
Different attitudes in money making
Local people sold out because of a good offer
Real estate out- of- sight
Nothing like that in earlier days
Martin House and Green Inn
Games
A.
XXVI .
Chamber of Commerce
1 . posters in other states
2 . tourists came and were let down
New sign--" Sunshine Inn"
Use the money more wisely
1 . happy cust omers spr ead the word
2 . best way to advertise
(L)
Privilege license
Sales tax
Social Security
Withholding tax
Told how to run the inn
Getting out of the business
(S)
(S)
�A.
B.
XXXI.
Glad because of the things involved
Sad because customers were let down
One family in particular--the Butlers
A.
B.
C.
(S)
Came there for honeymoon
Came every summer after that until closing
By that time they had a daughter
�With Ethel Burns on January the fifth, 1975 at her home in
Blowing Rock with Pat Morgan with the Appalachian Oral History Project at Appalachian State University.
PM:
Could you give me your mother and father's names and
your brothers' and sisters' names?
EB:
Yes, you mean their full names?
PM:
Their full names, as much as you can.
EB:
My father was William (inaudible middle name) Holtho zer,
and my mother, Laura Ellen Holtho· zer.
~••
t
My brothers and sisters
suppose I just give you their first names?
PM:
Fine, that'll be fine.
EB:
June, Katie, the one you know Peg, Howard, Mary, Eugene,
and William Luther.
PM:
Very good, that's a nice, a nice sized family.
Mrs.
Burns, we have been talking abo'ut tourism and what it meant
to this section of the country, can you tell me when did you
go into the tourist business as such?
Just tell me as much
as you can about what you've done.
EB:
Well, personally, my time dates from 1929 when I ac-
tually got into the tourist business, but, of course, we were
affected by the tourist business all of our lives.
My father
being in store business--merchandise--of course, came in constant contact with the tourists then.
We spoke of tourists
then as "summer residents",. and "the summer people".
That's
the way we referred to them, we didn't call them tourists, we
just says they're "summer residents" or "summer people". And
while there was a difference, we realized that these were
�2
people who stood a little above us socially, and financially,
and at the same time they accepted us and we accepted them
as, really, people of Blowing Rock.
There was that feeling
of really high opinion of them because they did take an interest in our .•• oh, little everyday things that happened to
us here, the local people here in Blowing Rock.
that dates way back to my childhood.
So, of course,
Then there were so few
places around that people would take the tourists into their
homes.
They didn't have a business, but just their private
homes, and this brought us in, of course, closer contact
and association with the tourist people.
But I Slept on the
floor many a time in order to give my room to some tourist.
At the time I may not have liked it, but it was just a thing
that we accepted and did.
Then when we went into business--
really what we would say "the tourist business"-- it was no
great change, it just seemed like we just opened our home to
you the public, and we wasn't thinking of it in terms of
making alot of money, but really just of taking care of the
people who came to us.
time.
I think this was a change made in the
Then the season, really we opened in May, but we didn't
expect a rush business--and when I say "rush", it was rush
then, but certainly not like a rush would be today--really
didn't start until about the first of July.
~.c.k
Then we closed
everything--everything in BlowingAclosed--definitely at
Labor Day.
After
that time if you would see a stranger on
the street everybody would run out to see this new person on
the street, you know, and what he was doing because it was a
curiosity to see anybody on the streets after Labor Day.
So,
�3
that's changed tremendously, you know, from the past.
PM:
Well, tell me, in your childhood did your father ever
talk to you about tourists per se, or "those summer people"?
EB:
Oh yes!
Dad had a mind of his own really, and he was
very independent.
While he knew, as everyone else knew, that
we were dependent on as I said we called them "the summer
people" at that time, still Dad was a person that wouldn't
let them walk over him at all.
I know you've heard of the
Cone (spelling?) Estate, and the Cones.
Of course, Mister
and Missus Cone were living here at the time.
My father's
store had a basement and many, many times he would go to the
basement to maybe measure out potatoes or do work down there
and leave the store doors wide open, you kn ow, with noone
up there.
One time Miz Cone came in and she was a little
irritated because there was noone there to wait on her. So,
Dad eventually came up from the basement and Mrs. Cone says,
"Mr . Holthozer, don't you know somebody could walk off with
everything you've got?"
He just sort of grinned a little
bit and says, "Well Miz Cone, I didn't know you were in town,
or I wouldn't have been down there."
Of course, there is a lot of humor with it, too, but
Dad never let any of them, even though he was a very humble
person, and very kind person he still felt his ••• his authority
and his own individuality in his relationship to the summer
people.
I think this love for Blowing Rock and this life in
the mountains really, probably we inherited that from Dad
because he really loved the
mountains~
And I told you that
his ambition was to build a place where people of moderate
�4
means can come and enjoy the climate and the scenery.
PM:
He was from where?
EB:
Rowan County.
And he came, I think , because of malaria;
bad health conditions, there was alot of mosquitoes at that
time so his father moved his family here to avoid that situation.
PM:
Can you think of any other examples as a child in Blowing
Rock of your relationship to the summer people?
Perhaps
another story like the Cone story?
EB:
There are so many really pleasant associations with the
summer people.
They organized then a community club, which
consisted of some of the local people and the summer residents,
too. And they really did a great, a great work for Blowing
Rock.
And they had every summer there a carnival in the park.
In order to, I think, really to have have better relationships between the local people and the summer people, they
drew the local people into jobs in this project that they
called the Carnival in the Park.
head of it:
But they were really the
they put it on, and all the money was donated
to the community for the library.
The reason for us having the
x good library that we have now •.• so, I'm not thinking of
humourous things now, but really things that were so helpful
to the community.
PM:
You said they probably had the summer festival in order
to have better relationships with the peoplecithe area, did
you ever sense that people from the area, not necessarily in
general, but different ones, resented these people coming here
and spending their time during the summer, while they went
�5
about their own labors?
EB:
I don't think there was a resentment, but I do feel
like the local people had a tendency to feel a little inferior to the summer residents, because if they were invited
into their home socially, we thought we were up in the world.
We felt like that was a great honor.
So, I'm sure there was
a certain amount of class distinction there; that we did
think they were a little above us socially, and, of course,
we knew they were financially, there was no doubt about that.
PM:
Did anyone ever tell you that, that gave you that im-
pression?
Say, when you were in school did any teacher talk
to you about this difference?
EB:
No, no, and I think probably I felt it less--and please
don't think I'm saying this egotistically at all--but my
family, the Holthozers, were a prominent family then.
So,
probably we were accepted into ' the homes of the summer residents more than others.
But I remember my friends say,
"Hmmm, think you're somethin', don't ya?" being invited to
any of their social functions.
And we really felt like we
were getting up in the world when we were invited into their
homes.
But I don't think this was the feeling among the
summer residents, because we had such a high, really high
class people as summer residents that you certainly wouldn't
associate any class distinctions within their minds, you
know, because they were anxious, really for us to come in
their homes and be a part
of them.
You said you were so
familiar with Flora McDonald, we had the Bardells, who for
years and years were residents of Blowing Rock, summer resi-
�6
dents.
And then the Cones and the Cannons.
These names
are familiar to you I'm sure, aren't they?
PM:
Yes, ma'am.
EB:
So we had such a .•• and they were church workers, they
worked in the church.
Dr. Bardell supplied in our church
during the summer for years, and years and years.
So, to
them this was home, and they were really citizens of Blowing
Rock from their standpoint, and of course, from our standpoint, too, we accepted them.
PM:
Were there any feelings at all about the fact that
these people were coming to your Blowing Rock to stay for
se~eral
months?
Did you have any real feelings either
negatively or positively about that?
EB:
Not then, not as a child, because we thought it was
great when they would start coming back.
We looked forward
to the time when they were coming back and we'd say, "oh,
the lardells are here" , or "the Cannons are here", and it
was really something that we'd looked forward to.
Now,
whether or not we unconsciously were conscious of that fact
that our living depended upon them, that everything we had
~e
was dependent on this business, that mayAhad something to do
with it, though at the time certainly I didn't think about
that.
And I don't think my father did either, because my
brother-in-law was working in the store, my father's store,
Missus Cannon came in to buy a rug which was then a fantastic price for a rug, I think around ten thousand dollars.
Well, to me that's a big price even yet.
of business through catalogues.
But Dad did a lot
He would keep the catalogues
�7
and order for the people from the catalogues.
come in to select a rug.
So she had
I think on a ten thousand dollar
rug maybe he would make a profit of maybe ten dollars.
By
that time people beginning to get more and more financially
conscious, you know: make money, make money.
But I remember
Dad saying why should he take advantage of Miz Cannon just
because she had money?
It, really, didn't cost him anything
but a three-cent sta•p, and he was perfectly happy with his
profit of ten dollars.
So, the local people then didn't
try to take advantage of the people just b ecause
they
had money.
PM:
Do you recall ever having any friends, children of the
summer people, who you looked forward to seeing come back
every year? Any type of relationship like that?
EB:
That's something I expect would really give you an
insight into the tourists, the' type of tourists that Blowing
Rock had during that period, early period, because it seemed
to be older people who had no children, or people with grown
children who maybe wasn't too enticed to be in Blowing Rock,
that came, and so really I don't remember people of my own
age, like playing with them, or those things.
I just don't
remember it at all, because it seems that it has been
really a place where elderly people came, and retired people,
the
and notAyounger generation. Even that early there was definitely that because there was really not much for young
people to do, and I think they preferred the beaches, you
know, and so we just didn't have many young people.
And
while I haven't thought of it, I really don't remember
�having playmates among the summer residents.
PM:
Approximately what were the years that we've been
talking about?
EB:
Was it 1919?
'20? '30?
Yes, I expect from 19 and 15, '20, because these were
the things that I remember when I was ten maybe twelve years
old.
PM:
Could you tell me when were you born?
EB:
19 and 8.
PM:
1908.
Okay, you gave the example of your father or-
dering the ten thousand dollar rug and you mentioned that
at that
a~ ~s~~
time people weren't that interested in making
all that much money, they hadn't quite reached that point,
do you have any feeling as to when they began to feel like
they needed to make more money on that ten thousand?
Using
ten thousand just as an example, as a figure, when did
people's attitudes begin to change, and maybe you have a
feeling as to why it changed?
EB:
I don't think I could see the change, I can see it
maybe not in myself because I don't think my family was
ever money-minded too much.
a lot of money.
Really our aim wasn't money,
But I could see the change in maybe
public
places changing their rates from ••• like they would have
seasonal rates, you know, then they certainly had an idea
they'd make more money at one time .•• They were money-conscious.
I think the fact that they did change their rates
during certain periods.
Now, of course, the horse show has
always been one of the busiest periods during the summer and
many of the places would up their rates due to the fact they
�9
knew they were going to have a lot of people , there was
no doubt about it, and they would get as much money as possible.
And to me that's taking advantage of people. And so
you
see, this yen for money certainly growing all the time.
PM:
Did your father ever speak or talk about the jump in
prices?
EB:
Were they going on when he was running his business?
I never heard him talk about whether he would make a
big profit or a little profit.
fair-minded man.
He was reall y such an honest,
He said "a fair profit", and while he was
a good business man, from this standpoint my brother when he
worked in the store, Dad would caution him: "Now, you give
absolutely accurate measure.
Don't you give a bit over, or
don't you give a bit under."
This was honest, and while he
wouldn't give an ounce he didn't take an ounce from the other
person either.
And he definitely felt an over-charge was not
a fair profit.
PM:
Can you thi nk of any particular saying, or any particular
principle that your father taught your brothers and sisters?
Well, sometimes we've been told certain a saying like "a
penny saved is a penny earned•, do you recall any of those
sayings that stuck with you?
EB:
We were certainly brought up with this:
Dad was con-
stantly telling us never to buy anything you couldn't pay
for.
You're aware of the credit cards and all of this, we
was brought up on that:"Don't buy anything unless you can
pay for it."
And we didn't, and this influenced me all my
life, and really now I just never buy anything on credit,
as popular as it is to do that.
In fact, the salesmen at
�10
the Inn would get thoroughly disgusted with me because I
insisted upon paying for everything as it was delivered to
me.
Credit companies would not take my name as a reference
because I never gone in debt on anything.
But that was
really the outstanding thing that I remember my dad teaching
all of us, and certainly it has paid off in the long run.
PM:
Well now, let's get to about 1929 and just tell me a-
bout how you got ••• What you were doing in 1929 and the
business that you got into.
EB:
(bo; I+) ·
It was during the Depression and my father had filled
the place.
I think a fulfillment of hopes, thinking of it
as it was when he came in:
you never dreamed it could be
operated as a public place because it had none of the conveniences of a tourist place.
But my husband and I came up
not long after the place was completed, and we just went in
and started cooking, really, like we did at home.
So, we
gained the experience as we went along.
PM:
Your father built ••. What did he build in1929?
EB:
The Sunshine Inn.
PM:
The Sunshine Inn.
And what was his reason for building
the Inn?
EB:
In order that people--and he really had this on his
heart, I think--that people could come to Blowing Rock and
enjoy it without having to pay such fabulous prices.
And
for that reason all through the years we kept our prices
down when they were going up all around us and people said,
"Why don't you go up? You have to."
I think knowing Dad's
dream of that kept me from going up on prices all through
�11
the years.
PM:
Now, how did you get into the business of the Sunshine
Inn itself?
Was there anything happening in 1929 that got
you back here?
EB:
The Depression.
My husband was laid off, he was working
at the Southern Bell, and he was laid off.
out work: we had to do something.
So, we were with-
And like I said, we knew
nothing about this but it was something to hold on to and we
were thankful that it happened just at the .time that Dad
needed someone to operate this Inn.
And while we were ig-
norant at it, the tourist people then were not very choosey.
I mean, they accepted things as they were, and if things were
not convenient, if we had just one public bathroom, if everyone ate at the one long table, they accepted that and thoroughly enjoyed it.
PM:
Describe what the Inn was like in 1929 and how you
actually operated it around 1929 .
EB:
Well, we added to it later, but from the beginning I
think we had a fairly large kitchen with just a home range
and we cooked on a coal stove.
The pipe was constantly getting
clogged up with soot and we'd have to take it down, clean it
out every week. But we had no cabinets.
I think groceries and
things probably we just shoved under the table, I don't
remember.
But we certainly had none of the cabinet space,
and the storage space, that you would think of that a hotel
or inn might have.
room.
We had about eight bedrooms, one bath-
One bathroom • • Everybody used the bathroom,
bathroom.
that one
And the dining room, we had one long table and
�12
everybody sat at this table.
Really, it was just like one
big family because they seemed to enjoy this type of .••
We didn't have a menu.
We would carry the food and put it
on the table whether they liked it or not, but they really
seemed to like it, and people would comment how nice it was
just to have the food served and not have to be bothered
deciding for themselves from a menu what they wanted to eat.
And the people just really seemed to enjoy the simple things.
And I feel confident about this that while we may not have
a
had.Avery expensive and exclusive hotel, we had people prefer to stay with us rather than go to Mayview Manor.
(Begin Side Two)
PM:
We were talking about the Sunshine Inn that your father
built in 1929 and you just described the Inn.
Can you des-
cribe some of the people that came to see you?
Tell us
something about some of those people.
EB:
Well, when they came of course, they were perfect
strangers, but they didn't stay strangers long . hecause in no
time they were just part of the family and accepted us as the
family.
Now, we had cooks, the colored couple, that cooked
for us for thirty years, and we had at that time a local
girl, two, we only used two then, as waitresses.
They girls
not only wait on the tables, but they helped with all the
cleaning up the rooms, you know.
thought of using canned food.
Of course, then we never
We peeled our own potatoes,
and we peeled our apples, we made our cakes, our ice cream,
we killed and dressed the chickens, and the girls even helped with those things.
And I paid them five dollars a week.
�13
Five dollars, and they gladly did all this extra work.
They changed there later.
I remember one girl who ••• This
was years later, but to see the changes that went about,
we gradually had about ten waitresses and maybe by that
time we were using busboys, too, or at least one busboy.
But this young girl, waitress, and I think probably she was
the- only one that was not a local girl that worked for me
during all the years--but she decided their work was too
hard and she thought I should hire a helper for every waitress.
That is, this extra girl would carry the food in and
place it on the table, and thereafter
the waitress had
gotten their drinks and the meal was finished, then her helper would clear the table and reset the table.
Really, what
it amounted to, the girl was picking up the tips and not
doing the work.
That was just one unusual waitress that I
had and she didn •t stay with us long, because most of the
girls stayed year, after · year, after year, and they, too,
became part of the family.
PM:
Now, how long did a guest stay at the Inn when they
came to stay?
EB:
Oh, they came probably the first of July and they stay
July and August until we closed it Labor Day.
PM:
And back in 1929, around that period, what would it cost
someone to stay at the Inn?
EB:
Around fifteen dollars a week, including three meals a
day, and let me explain "three meals a day." Breakfast was
big, they would eat a huge breakfast; then we didn't say
"lunch", we said "dinner" in the middle of the day and that
�14
consisted maybe of a meat and seven, or eight, or nine
vegetables, and a salad and dessert.
And the~e thing
was what we called "supper", only it wasn't dinner it was
"supper."
We would serve maybe two meats and maybe as many
as nine vegetables.
I was holding up
we always did.
the
I remember I used to count to be sure
standard and having as
many things as
Usually about nine, including the fruits
and vegetables, you know.
three meals a day.
And the people ate consistently
I think invariably they gained weight
during the summer, but they enjoyed it, so that was all
right.
PM:
What would these people do for two months while they
were staying here at Blowing Rock?
EB:
There was no entertainment of any kind at Blowing
Rock, no attractions, no movies, no auctions, nothing they
could do at the inn except for getting out and walking and
taking hikes.
If the weather was bad they stayed at home
and sat around and talked to each other, or else if they
became restless and wanted a little more activity they would
get in the dining room and play games, and even move back the
chairs and dance, just entertain themselves.
PM:
So the guests would entertain themselves, and would
mingle and mix with all the other guests?
EB:
Oh yes, oh yes, and I think we were really so fortunate
in having this type people who did enjoy other people, and
it wasn't long until at the end of the season when they
would begin to leave and go back home, they would say to
each other, "See you next summer," and next summer they
�15
would see each other because they looked forward to coming
back with the same crowd that they had enjoyed the summer
before.
PM:
So, we had the same people year after year, after . year.
What would happen during the non-season after you
closed at Labor Day?
What all happened around the Sunshine
Inn?
EB:
We just hibernated practically.
we looked forward to that;
In a way, of course,
as much as we enjoyed the tour-
ists we did look forward to everything being quiet and not
having to work so hard.
Really, though, you may not think
pf it as a year-round job, but it
was~
because we're do-it-
yourself people and we did our own work.
We'd start painting
rooms, or doing repair work, or things that we
~ould
do
during the period that we were closed that we couldn't do
during the summer.
So really, it was more or less a year-
round job.
PM:
What happened to your waitresses .and help?
What would
they do during the winter?
EB:
The girls were usually high school girls, so, of course,
they in school during the winter.
Our cooks had a little
home down off the mountain and they did what everybody else
did, we ..• Somehow or another, I never knew, but we managed
to make enough money in the summer to survive the winter,
so our cooks, the old colored couple, would just rest up
during the winter.
PM:
Now, where would they stay during the summer?
EB:
We
had a room right back of the kitchen and that was
Maggie and John's room.
�16
PM:
Maggie and John, what was their last name?
EB:
Jones.
PM:
And they stayed with you throughout
EB:
Throughout the summer, yes.
summer?
They had their own room:
just real convenient, just open the kitchen door and go right
into their room.
While I'm sure at first they must not have
had their own bathroom, eventually we did add their own bathroom
and also another room for additional help.
So, we grew, and, of
course, then we did everything on our own.
The government--the
state, the county, the town--didn't bother us.
They could have
cared less how we run and operated, and run our business, and we
were entirely on our own.
We didn't have to bother
. with Social
Security, sales tax, privileges, licenses, unemployment tax,
which we did have to bother with later.
And, of course, then,
the health department was beginning to take an interest in
the
public eating places, and establishments, so we had eventually
to change to their standards.
They were very lenient with us,
I think they were with the older places, but we certainly had to
make certain changes and adjustments and probably that's the
reason we put in more bathrooms, and changed equipment in the
kitchen to meet the standards of the health department.
PM:
Do you recall how much Mister and Missus Jones were paid
when they were working for you?
EB:
Did they start in1929?
Yes, and I paid them together, as a husband and wife.
They
were a team so I paid them twenty five dollars a week in addition
to their meals and their room, which they thought was great, and
r~
I thought it was pretty good myself really to have paid
them that much.
But before they left I think I was paying them
�17
instead of the combined salary of twenty-five dollars a week,
anywhere from eighty to a hundred dollars each a week: that's
how much things changed during that period.
PM:
What do you recall about Mister Jones and Missus Jones as
they worked around the Sunshine Inn?
EB:
Oh, they were just so loyal to the business.
In fact, they
were just as concerned and interested in the business as we were,
and certainly so conscientious about their work.
to do and they felt responsible for that job.
the cooking.
They had a job
It just wasn't
Every morning John would go in and light the stove
and while the stove was heating up he would go out and sweep all
the walkways in the front, and the front porch.
They seemed to
take it for granted this was their job, and they did it.
And if
you happened to help them out, or to do some of their job, they
resented it, because they felt like, ''Well, I'm not living to
my bargain to do this job," and they really resented it.
And they
felt a concern if business wasn't good, in fact, they hesitated
to take their money if we wasn't doing a good business.
They
said, "You haven't made this, so I hate to take the money that
I know is hard for you to pay."
But this was their attitude
toward us and toward the business, too.
PM:
Did you ever have to discipline any of your employees, not
only Mister and Missus Jones, but any of the other employees?
How would you all settle the problems?
EB:
I think just like a family.
If the girls 9ave us any pro-
blems, I always hesitated on pointing out a girl in
something
that she had done that was not quite what we wanted her . to do,
but I don't think I was ever cut out to be a boss.
Even though
�18
I felt they needed corrections, I was very hes·d .tant to correct
them.
I would sort of beat around the bush, you know, and call
all the girls together for a"family conference", and we would
sit down and somehow or other I would work around to this thing
that had bothered me and not point out that "You're the guilty
one," but it was something that had to be adjusted.
So we had
no hard feelings then between our relationship and the same way
with John and Maggie.
Invariably people are going to make mis-
takes--sometimes burn up something, or burn some food--Maggie
would be so distressed about this.
She'd say, "Missus Burns,
if I were in your place I wouldn 't put up with me.
fire me."
I would
But then I had that feeling of closeness to Maggie,
I would say, "Maggie, if I never made a boo-boo myself then I
might fire you, but as long as I make them myself then I can't
condemn you for making them."
we had with our help.
That was the relationship that
In fact, I never says, "You work for me.
You work with me."
PM:
Is that what you would say?
EB:
Oh y.es, and that really works.
You get more loyalty from
your help, and more work, really.
PM:
Did you work just as hard as they did?
EB:
Oh yes!
I nev.er would ask them to do anything I wouldn't
do myself, and I can't think of a single thing that I didn't do
sometime or other: from a-waiting tables, cooking meals, washing
dishes, and cleaning rooms.
I went into every, every bit of it.
It didn't bother me.
PM:
And was your husband doing the same thing?
EB:
Oh yes, oh yes.
PM:
Did he ever wash a dish?
�19
EB:
At the beginning of the season and in order to cut down on
things financially while things were slow, he was the dishwasher.
He .was the dishwasher.
And I was
the maid.
Here such a good
relationship existed between our guests and us, that while I did
all of the maid work ... And we had a lot of fun with it because
I'd knock on the door and say, "This is Mary the maid, may I come
in?"
Invariably they'd open the door and say, "Well, you don't
have to bother our room, we've already made up our beds and
straightened up our rooms, so there's nothing to do."
maid work got easier and easier.
So, my
That's the type of people we
had; that they really looked after themselves.
PM:
They'd continue to come back over the years?
EB:
Oh, year, after year, after year, after year.
PM:
Now, what was the shortest time, do you recall, right at the
very beginning that people would stay at the inn?
EB:
Oh, people just never came for any less than two weeks.
just didn't have any overnight guests.
We
If we were thinking from
a financial standpoint that would have been great because you had
to change sheets constantly, you had to clean rooms constantly,
and really, it was good for us to have people come and stay for
a long period of time, both from the work standpoint and from a
financial standpoint.
To see how people liked the simple things
and the simple way of life, and the plain food and everything, it
came to me from a man that we had .•. Of course, alot of people
wrote in for reservations!
they were coming to.
They had no idea what kind of place
But we had a Mister Dillon from Florida who,
I think was awfully disappointed when he came in.
He evidently was
pretty wealthy, and he had written to us for a reservation, and we
�20
had confirmed his reservation.
His son brought him up, he
didn't drive, he was rather an elderly man, and I sensed the
minute he came in that he was disappointed, that he expected a
little more elaborate accomodations, you know.
Also, his son
was, I think, at first skeptical. But it was a little late so
they spent the night.
But the next morning, and this he told
me later, "We went over to Mayview Manor and looked around, and, r•
he says, "we both had a feeling that Sunshine Inn wasn't quite
up to what we thought it was going to be, so we went to Mayview
Manor."
But the man didn't drive, and he told his son, "Since
I don't, I'll just go on and stay down at Sunshine for a few
days anyway."
So, it wasn't but. about two or three days until
he was just the happiest old man.
He said the simplicity had
really been great for him, and the friendship, because we had
a lot--I guess we'd say--"old maids" who were delighted in
entertaining this old widower.
His wife had died just a month
or two before and he was really depressed, but he came out of
it and thoroughly enjoyed it.
And he told me later that he
wouldn't stay anyplace else for anything in the world and he came
back as long as we were in business, every summer.
PM:
How long did he come?
Do you recall?
EB:
I believe about twelve years.
And that was the nice part
about our business because we kept having the same people over,
and over, and over.
And they seemed to fit in perfectly.
Of
course, everybody· has a few instances when things are not too
pleasant.
PM:
Can you give me an idea of some of those unpleasant things?
EB:
Well, we had one family come in, and I say this through no
reflection of the Jewish people, but they were Jewish and they
�21
asked to see the rooms and they were very, very critical.
And
they were not at all friendly to the other guests, which horrified me.
They had accepted the rooms, though and were going
to stay, but I just had a feeling I don't know whether this is
going to work out too well or not.
So, I said to him as we
went to the door, "I don't believe you're going to like it here.
I just don't think you're going to like it here at all."
I
says, "We have the nicest, friendliest people, most congenial
guests in the world, and I just don't believe you'll like it."
So, that was one instance where .•• It just didn't happen often
because it seemed like we were unusually fortunate in having
the cream of the crop.
PM:
Can you recall any other unhappy--we don't like to think
of all the unhappiness, but I think it kind of gives a balance,
we do have those times when it's not happy.
EB:
Oh yes, I know we have to face them because they do exist,
and too, I think it shows not always when there's criticism,
and it has taught me certainly to be very lenient and understanding of eating places where things might happen that you
certainly don't want to happen.
Oh, we were just swamped!
But we were so rushed one night.
And I think really that I was aware,
but not entirely aware because I was in the kitchen, and this
family sat in the dining room and evidently didn't get but a
few of the thing$that we served for our evening meal.
I was
rushing between the kitchen and the cash register and I went
out with a big smile, you know, expecting him to say he had enjoyed the meal, which I had grown accustomed to.
let me have it.
But boy! he
He said I ought to be ashamed of myself for
�22
cheating the public like that.
And he was really, really in-
dignant about it. And my feathers fell just like that, but it
was due to the rush and the girls just didn't get around to
serving him, and serving him all the food we had and he was too
impatient to wait for the food.
Those things happen at every
place, I'm sure of that, too.
But I think about the funniest
thing that happened:
s~aying
A couple came in to eat, they were not
in the house, but they just came in to meals, and they
had been coming in for several days and on the morning they ·
were leaving they came in for breakfast.
Very nice, and had
really complimented the meals everytime they'd eaten there.
On that morning, though, that they were leaving they came in
and ate cantiloupe, and they ate oatmeal, and we served as an
order, too, eggs and two slices of bacon, or sausage, they ate
that with toast.
Then they ate hot cakes, then they ate French
toast, then they ordered another order of eggs.
Now, we never
hesitated to give people everything they ordered because we advertised all they can eat, and all you want, for the same price.
So, they ordered the second order of eggs and when the girl
took it in they started fussing.
suit them.
The eggs were not fixed to
They were either too soft or too hard.
Well, she
took that order of eggs back and got another order and she
brought those and they just wouldn't do at all.
worst tasting eggs they ever saw.
times.
They were the
She took those back.
Three
Really, the people at the table next to them said it was
just really terrible the way they talked to the girl in their
criticism of the food.
Of course, everybody knew they'd eaten
so much nothing could taste good to them at that stage.
The
�23
girl finally sent for me to come in and talk to them myself,
so I went in and I said, "Really, we'd do everything we could
to please them and get their order straight, but if they were
not happy with it then we ·
money."
certainly would not take their
So, they ended up by not paying for their breakfast.
I think that was the point all the time.
But you run into that,
invariably you have a few who are very critical, and impatient,
but we certainly were fortunate in having very, very few through
the years.
PM:
What was the relationship that Mister and Missus Jones had
to your guests? Did anything happen that would kind of give us
an idea of what that relationship was as far as segregation
goes?
EB:
Oh, Certainly Maggie and John had no thought of associat-
ing with our guests.
They would have hated that more than our
guests would have resented it because the guests would come into
the kitchen and talk with Maggie and John and compliment them
on their cooking abilities, but Maggie and John would never, in
any way, take advantage of what they thought their place was
then.
As colored people they felt like they had a place
and
they stayed in it, even to the extent that if we who felt as
close to them as anyone could possibly feel, like they were part
of our family, but they, in their humility, if we'd sit down at
the table while they were eating they'd put their plates
in
their laps.
PM:
They'd still sit there and eat?
EB:
Sit there there yes, but not with their plate on the table.
Now that I don't know whether it was just part of their humility
�24
or if they felt the difference in the color, or why they did
that I don't know.
But to me it was significant of the •••
being the difference between the black and the white, as it
was considered back during those days .
PM:
What about the relationship with their children and your
children?
They did have one son?
(Begin Tape #2, side one)
PM:
We were talking about the Jones' nephew who lived with
them and just the relationship that the nephew had with your
own children as he was growing up.
EB:
It was just like
brothers, especially my younger son,
and believe it or not his name was Sweet.
We called him Sweet.
They had no ••. no consciousness that one was black and one was
white.
They could see no reason why they couldn't eat together,
they couldn't sleep together, they couldn't take trips together.
They saw no reason at all why they couldn't associate just as
brothers.
And they did, really.
But at one point where they
wanted to go off on a trip and spend the night to a ballgame,
Maggie, bless her heart, she was just the greatest, she took
Sweet aside and said, "Sweet , you just can't do do this.
just don't do this."
You
She says, "Colored people just don't go
off with white people like that," she says, "You just can't do
it."
And the same thing she told him when Ronnie wanted to
spend the night in Sweet's room, "No, that just won't do. You're
black and he's white and that won't do."
But Maggie accepted
it as such.
PM:
Did Maggie ever make any statements as to how she felt a-
bout being segregated?
�25
EB:
Just one or two times.
Not so much on segregation, the
difference between the black and the white, as people not
associating together, even the whites with the whites, which
seemed down through the years people became more and more, I
guess the word's selfish, they wanted to be by themselves.
So,
if there was any problem with that someone sitting with anyone
else at a table, she couldn't understand that.
wonder
She just would
what they would do when they got to Heaven.
But and too
of course, I heard her then so many times say that the nurses
of the families that had Negro mamies to look after their children and they, too, seemed to have such a close relationship
and Maggie would remark that she just couldn't understand how
that relationship could be so close and yet be such a difference in their social standing, and in their opportunities.
So
she did feel it to a certain extent.
PM:
What about her husband, did you ever have any feelings
that he felt that way?
EB:
John, he was I think maybe just really afraid to say any-
thing along this line.
Now John told me this, I don't know
I
that it's true, but way back when my father was building the
~
store and they were making brick to buildAstore, John says he
helped, came up from his little place down there and helped
make that brick, and he said there was such a feeling even then
between the blacks and whites that he was afraid to stay up here,
and that there were times when they had gotten stoned, I mean
had rocks thrown at them, you know.
So, John seemed to have a
fear there of ever expressing his own opinion.
back from that period.
Maybe it dated
�26
PM:
Well, tell me about your attitude about business.
did you approach making · money as such?
Let~s
How
put it this
way: how did you keep books, and how did you determine the
prices that you were going to charge?
EB:
Well, to begin with, we didn't keep any books.
Like I
said, it was our own business so if we made some money all right
and if we didn't then that was our bad luck, too.
But as far
as bookkeeping, we just didn't keep any books, or we didn't
have a cash register.
Then, of course though, as we bought
wholesale I was conscious of prices in terms o.f the menus that
we were serving.
For instance, I knew that for two dollars we
could not serve T-bone steaks, and I was conscious of the fact
that certainly while country ham was one of our main attractions,
especially on Sunday ·morning, the time came when we could not
serve country ham at seventy-five cents for breakfast, you see.
And I was conscious of prices from that respect, but during all
those years I don't think I ever sat down and figured actually
how much a meal would cost me and if we took in enough money to
take care of the cost of the meal that I had served .
PM:
Well, how would you price breakfast, for example?
What
would go through your mind when you would finally say that this
breakfast is going to cost seventy-five
cen~,
or a dollar, or
however much it cost?
EB:
I guess really through, from experience.
I thought,"Well,
we're not going to lose money on this breakfast, we may not make
any, but we're not going to lose money on this breakfast."
I
guess I thought more of volume that anything else, because if
we had enough people then we'd take in more money and that would
take care of the cost of the meal. As for actually sitting down
�27
and estimating the price of the meal and our profit, later,
of course, all bf the salesmen began to push portions, well ,
you know, "a portion of meat will cost you so much,"
but I'd
get real irritated with them and said, "Well, I'm not concerned
in portions," because our meals, , meats, were put on platters
and we'd put enough portions on that until we had no doubt.
We just didn't want.' to run out,so portions didn't mean a thing
to me.
And it was hard, really, to estimate the price of maybe
a twenty-five, thirty pound roast in regard to portions because
some people ate so much more than others.
we couldn't count on that, you know.
The way we served
We'd let people have as
much as they wanted•
PM:
Why do you suspect that the salesmen were pushing portions,
and encouraging you to go by the portion route?
EB:
Profits.
To really give us a bigger profit, I think. Then
I would know just exactly how much my meat was costing me.
that was the big item of course, the meat, it
~s
Well
now; it was then.
So, I guess really, the way I estimated . was I paid a hundred
dollars for the meat for a meal.
Well, we'll serve maybe a hun-
dred and fifty people, so I guess that's the way I really judged
whether or not we were going to lose money or make money.
Be-
cause we could estimate then on the people we were going to
serve.
If this amount of meat will serve that many people, then
I'm not going to lose money or I'm going to make money.
PM:
When you say I'm going to make money, would you say twenty
per cent, or fifty per cent?
Were you trying to just make a
little money, or a lot of money, or break even?
EB:
We were trying to make a living, that was about it and
�28
really we were pretty well satisfied with the living because
we felt like if we made enough during the summer to live on
during the winter we were doing pretty well.
PM:
When you say "to make enough to live on," do you mean
enough to buy your own food, to buy your own fuel and have
a little spending money throughout the winter?
EB:
Yes, and we thought we were doing pretty well to do that.
And when you think about it, that's pretty good to work those
months in the summer and ·then loaf the rest of the time, although we really didn't loaf.
wouldn't
rou
That you can say is pretty good,
say, really?
PM:
I feel good about it.
EB:
We didn't have money in the bank.
In fact, I don't think
really either of us thought about how much money we were making,
we just took it as it came.
If we made some money, okay, if
we didn't,okay.
PM:
Did you save money over the years?
EB:
Yes, at the end of the season I sort of estimated how much
would it take for us to get through the winter and if we had it
on deposit and if I felt like we could afford a hundred or two
dollars I'd put1in Watauga Savings and Loan, and it's amazing
if you put it there and forget about it what it can do. That's
part of my living today I'll tell you.
PM:
Well, can you tell me how has the tourist business changed
over the years and when did you retire, 19 .•• ?
EB:
About five years ago.
PM:
That was 1969?
EB:
Sixty-nine.
�29
PM:
From 1929 to 1969, that's forty years, how did the business
change?
EB:
The good and the bad?
Well, I think the biggest change was the transits people
that came in, people who were on the go.
We had alot more over-
night guests than we had back in the old days.
And then in the
contentment--I guess contentment's a good word--people were so
content with the simple things, I mean not much entertainment,
they didn't have to be entertained.
But as years went on, it
seems that that was the main thing they looked for in a tourist
town was all the attractions, the recreation facilities, and
the entertainment.
this line?"
"Well, what have you got to offer along
So, that definitely was the biggest change, the
restlessness of the people and their demands for entertainment
and recreation facilities, which was unheard of in the earlier
days.
PM:
You know, this area has certainly changed in those ways
and they offer people quite a few things I think to do.
you see that as positive?
EB:
Do
Is that good or is that bad?
Why certainly, it's helped the tourist business, there's
no doubt about that.
Whereas I would say it has doubled, the
tourist business, over doubled since we first started.
And I
expect it's certainly due to these attractions that have come
in:
Land of Oz
and Tweetsie. We still, if we want to progress
as a tourist town, have a long way to go in attractions for the
young people.
Of course, from years back we had horseback rid-
ing and hiking, those were things put on the brochures about
Blowing Rock, but the young people don't care for that now. They
want actual entertainment, some kind of amusement, and we've
�30
cJI'"&
got a long way yet to entice the young people in.
And we Astill
sort of a retired, older people's tourist town.
PM:
Can you recall any particular effort you were involved in
getting more and more people to come here, maybe through the
Chamber of Commerce, or •.. ?
EB:
We contributed to the Chamber of Commerce, but I don't
think I was very cooperative in the advertising.
Their ways
of advertising to me, they would put all the posters, and do
all the advertising in other states and along the highways.
Then people would come here but be disappointed becau"'e they
didn 't have the recreatio
be they had expected .
faciliti es or attra ctions that may-
It was the same way at the Inn.
very little advertising.
Just in this past summer you see a
great big s ign, "Sunshine Inn", dmm here.
new.
Well, really, that's
That's new, \'e didn't have anything like that.
like rather than
We did
I felt
spend money putting out signs and advertising,
if I could put that mane
place more attractive for
into something that would make my
the people who came there, to me that
would be a bigger advantage than all the signs that I could
put out on the hig ways , because then tho se people were happy
and satisfied and they would go and tell others, and to me that's
the best way to advertis •
And I felt like this
as the same
with Blow-i ng Rock, though certainly we cooperated with the Chamber of Commerce and all the projects that the town
et forth as
the aim to bring in more touri s t trade.
PM:
Your Sunshine Inn was a family-owned, run, operation, there
were other attractions or homes t hat were not family-owned, could
you tell a difference between the family-owned and the operations
�31
that were not family-owned, in the way they wer
EB:
operated?
Yes , yes , the people who-- I hope I ' m not s ying something
that sometime later anybody might resent--but this certainly
is refle cted on the local people a d their attitud e toward
business .
Because i
r ecent years we have gotten so many , es-
pecially from Florida , m .n or people who have come in and
ought
motels , or have go e into businese here.
They seem purely t
think of it fr o
"We
a financial
and this is our aim, a n
tandpoint:
ant to make mo ey ,
r gardle "' s we 're going to ma ke mo ey."
The local people, when it' s a local person, he doesn ' t have that
attitude at all .
It ' s more th
inst ad of making
tation .
i te e t of the entire town , and
alot of money , j u t have a good repu-
So that local feeling toward bu
ines~
how s I thi k in
all the places , the e s tablis ments , that we have now .
PM:
Are there 1
any establi shment s r n , or
different
o~med
by people fro
or different state· , owned by them
area~
have them op rat
by s omebody
el~e?
nd th n they
Do you know of many like
that nO\<V ?
EB:
Do you mean that th
PM:
Rig t .
EB:
Yes .
lo aJ people have sold out t o?
It' s happening more and more an
very, v ery few, eve
local people .
rig t now there s
the motelR that are -""d and
People fr o
oth r se ction s
o ght th em , and operat e them.
f
p erated by
t he countr
h v
come in
nd
It ' s dist re ssing t
me that
o mariy of the busi e s e s and the shops up the street ,
0
all of them are going out of the hand s of local people.
PM:
Is there any particular r aso
that loc al people ar
busines
0
for it other than the f ct
ju . . t getting 'tired of their
and selling to
.hoever com s in?
OvJri
particular
�32
Well ,
EB:
y s
and I '"' .r . talkine; about it t is morning i
ur f eel ing toward the tourists and them taking the b sinesses
in Blowing Rock.
He says it '
not that feeling of" res
tment,
b t it's the feeling that the e people can have money , mo tly
retired p ople ,
a
a f ford.
1~0
can afford alot more tha
the local peopl e
And thy will offer maybe such a f nt
f r a buf'i es s , t at th
lo a J peopl
for that pri ce , and they ' ve
got the
oney to do it.
O\I
But this
And this is what
rese ts becauce he and his wife c:ir- e li ing i
apart el'.1t
ric
will certainly sell it
has re ulted in real e tate going out of sight.
my so
t ic
a litt
r h re now of min, and they 1ould like v ry much
t o hav . ah me, yet he s ayc all th ese p eople with so much money
come in her
an
pay such fanta tic prices for thing
no chance in the world he can have a home,
real
no~
there's
at the price of
state.
PM:
You didn't sense th·s back when you were a young girl?
RB:
No , oh no !
PM:
Prices weren ' t being pushed up?
EB:
No , no and certainly local people o n d and operat ed m s t
of the busi e s es, if not all of them back then, I expect th
id.
r M:
Do they operate them with the same philosophy that you did
of having a good busines
caring about maki g
EB:
You know, I t i
and a good reputatio
lot of money?
I can say tru.thfully that i
of the local people becau e I think of now the
and the inn right above us, th
t e attitu e
Marti
Hol:.... ,
Green Inn, it seemed that they
really enjoy d operati g their pla e
in, not wit
v..itl cut really
and having the tourist
the idea of making alot of money.
come
I r ally belie e
�33
t hat wa
the att i tude of
most of t e l ocal people . Back then
especiall y.
PM:
One th "ng I j st wanted to hit on , you ' v e already t al ked
a bout it, can you r e call any of those game
people played , in
your pa rlor I guesc , when t hey came in as tourist s , a s summer
peopl e ?
EB :
There ' s one they ca ll ed " Pi g" and I cannot r e e ber t he
details of t he game , but I remember it wa s ver y hilar ious and
evident l y t he pi g woul d put h i s f inger by th e s ide of hi s nose
and t hen t here wa s a l ot of holl ering and whooping.
On e t ine
we had a senator, v·e ry eld erly, ret ired s enator there with hi s
wife , and his health wasn't good and he had a nurse the r e with
him .
All of t he guests were in the dining room playing Pig,
and of course, there were other games we played as children
that you wouldn't think that they would enjoy, but they thoroughly enjoyed.
You know Post Office and all this, they tho-
roughly enjoyed it.
But one night I think everybody was es-
pecially having fun, it was sort of noisy you know, laughing
and talking, and this old senator had a room on the same floor
as the dining room and he was a rather dignified person anyway,
~( 'ffil ; ~
and suddenlyAin the room got quiet, just quiet as could be, nobody made a noise, we looked up and in the dining room door
stood this old man in
knees.
his night shirt that just came to his
And he was a little withered up sort of man anyway.
He looked like something out of a story book standing there in
the dining room door, but he was just as stern, he wanted to
know what was going on in there, that his sleep was being disturbed.
He went back to his room, but the next morning he came
�34
to me, "Miz Burns, you weren't in there last night in all that
noise, were you?"
I sort of hung my head and said, "Well, I
was in there."
PM:
What did he say about that?
Did he ask you not to do it
again?
EB:
No, no he didn't.
but he soon got over it.
Evidently he was irritated at the time,
They had been used to a little
more formality than we were able to offer at the Inn.
bit
His son,
too was a political figure, so they were looking for him to come
up and
they wanted us to put on just a little extra, you know,
when he got there.
So, I had agreed with his wife that I would
put bread and butter plates on, you know, and really put on a
little bit, spread it on for him.
It happened that he came in
right while they were eating the noon meal and they were ready
for the noon meal so instead of all that formality nothing could
have been w0rse because we just took two tables and shoved them
811
together withAthe informality.
It had no dignity to it at all.
But he was perfectly happy.
PM:
What was the music that they liked?
Was it local people
coming in performing for them, playing the instruments that they
play, or phonograph, or record player, or did they have any
music when they played these games, or when they entertained
themselves?
EB:
No, we just didn't have any music.
If ever anybody wanted
to tap their foot and clap they did it, but not any
real music.
I think that was one thing that we ••• Down through the years when
you walked into a dining room you expected to hear music of some
kind, the soft music you know, we never used it.
Just the last
�35
few years my husband got interested in intercom and he rigged
up something where we could have it, but the reaction we had
to that was certainly not good, because any number of people
said, "Oh, why did you put in that music?"
because one thing
they enjoyed about coming there was the quietness and peacefulness, you know, and that they didn't have to listen to all
this music.
And so that was sort of symbolic to me, too, of
what people, of what they enjoyed.
You
know , I wonder some-
times if it's good to people to have all this music and noise
while they're eating?
PM:
Do you recall from 1929 on when people began to change,
and didn't play the parlor games and entertain themselves?
EB:
Just about the time, now, I don't remember dates, I don't
know how many years it's been that the auctions came in.
Of
course, then, people begain instead of staying home in the evening and sitting around talking or singing--they sang, but no
musical instruments--they would go to the auctions.
And before
we retired the house had been entirely empty, as quiet as a
mouse after dinner.
Everybody'd be gone to the auctions, or a
movie, or up on the street window shopping, or off to see some
kind of entertainment.
PM:
As time went on and you were in business, you said at the
beginning you really didn't have to worry about the government,
the town, the state, as far as running your business, how did
that change over a period of time in terms of your relationship
to the work, what you
EB:
ha~e
to do?
I just don't remember how long we operated without, shall
I say , "interference" from the government or the state, that
�36
certainly it was over a good many years.
And I think maybe
the first thing came the privilege license that we had to pay
to operate and that we had to pay for every chair that we had
in the
~ining
room.
This came as a privilege license from the
state, and then later from the town, too, we had to pay the
license from the town.
(Begin Side Two)
PM:
We were talking about the different licenses and the af-
feet the government had on business ..•
EB:
Like I said, I can't remember exactly when it started, but
I do remember that gradually these men began to come in and ask
ahouf
questionsAyour business, and if you were doing so-and-so, and
if you were ... Really, it seems to me like when the sales tax
started, that thing;tbegan to get complicated then because they
were constantly checking.
They were doing their jobs, but at
the same time taking alot of our time and alot of our money,
too.
For many years, what we made was ours, we had no taxes
of any kind, but then before we closed
ther~ocial Security,
s~l<S
there waSAtax, there was withholding tax--that I resented more
than any other tax--there was withholding tax, unemployment
compensation, that's the one I mentioned, though.
You know
the expression, it took a Philadelphia lawyer to keep books
after that because these reports had to go in.
And not only
were these taxes put on us, but they told us exactly how to
run our business, too.
Now, this was true.
They told us how
many we could hire, how long they could work, under what conditions they could work, they could work so many hours and that's
hard when you're not working by the hour as you don't in the
�37
tourist business.
And at what age you could hire someone.
Really, I guess if I would say I was thankful to be out of it
that was the reason because of the things that were involved
in a small business like that.
lie
PM:
Come 1969, you were glad toAgetting out of the business?
EB:
From that standpoint, yes.
For sentimental reasons, and
certainly tradition, made me very sad to . leave
i~.
And I
think the fact that we had been there forty years, that we'd
build, and it wasn't just that that I hated it, too, because
we'd left so many disappointed people.
These people that had
been coming to us for years and years and counted on spending
their vacation with us, they were without a place to stay because
you know it's hard to accept a new operator after being used
to one for forty years.
You know, no matter how well they do,
your old people are going to find something that's wrong.
So,
about their management, I not only felt hurt in a way for my
ownself, but to think that I had let these people down, which
I was getting really to the point where I had no choice.
We
had been in business long enough and we were giving out under
it.
But you feel, "Oh, they're going to be so disappointed
this summer when they come back."
PM:
Is there any one particular family, or couple, or single
person, that you recall came back more than anybody else did?
EB:
Well, we had any number of people who came as long as
ten, twelve years every summer, but I suppose that one that
really stands out is Mister and Missus Butler.
He was a busi-
ness manager at Elon College and he and his wife spent their
honeymoon with us when they were married, then they never missed a summer, until
we went out of business and then by that
�38
time they had a daughter, I believe about twelve, fifteen
years old. .
PM:
Well, I've certainly enjoyed talking to you and hope
you've enjoyed it.
EB:
I've thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm afraid I haven't
been much help.
(The End)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Morgan, Pat
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Burns, Ethel
Interview Date
1/5/1975
Location
The location of the interview.
Blowing Rock, NC
Number of pages
43 pages
Date digitized
9/22/2014
File size
27.4MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
26038cec110dad3b109b51bc825c7ab7
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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111_tape353_EthelBurns_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ethel Burns [January 5, 1975]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Morgan, Pat
Burns, Ethel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Burn, Ethel
Description
An account of the resource
Ethel Burns grew up and eventually took over the Sunshine Inn, an establishment that housed "the summer people" or the upper-class tourists who came to Blowing Rock over the summer for vacation. They housed them and provided three meals a day for fifteen dollars a week. She recalls that everyone felt a sort of reverence for the summer people but her father "still felt his authority and his own individuality in his relationship to them." The tourists didn't have much to do in Blowing Rock in those days, only hiking and walking and spending time with the other residents.
bed and breakfast
Blowing Rock
Chamber of Commerce
community club
Ethel Burns
Great Depression
Land of Oz
Rowan County
segregation
summer festival
summer residents
The Sunshine Inn
tourist business
Tweetsie
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/61b8ac98d1bdb562a48623aec5d27a7e.pdf
ffd35fd69fb38b80c4fa9af45d98ddd6
PDF Text
Text
This is an ·Appalachian Oral History Project interview with
M
r. Perry Hicks of M
arion, North Carolina who is a retired mill
worker. He was interviewed by Sam Howie on December Jl, 1975.
Q.
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Some of the first things we need to know are thi ng s like where
you we re born.
Well, I was born in Haywood County in the extreme western part
of North Carolina, right inside of North Carolina. Our closest
neighbors we r e in Tennessee •••• back in the extreme western part,
near Pigeon River.
Pigeon Rive r?
I was raised on a company's land. My father paid $25 a y e ar,
standing rent, on the mountain f a rm. And he raised hogs, c a ttle
and livestock and he farmed. He raised wheat, corn, oats, rye,
irish potatoes. The land produced rye and oats in abundance,
and irish potatoes and cabbage and vegetables. But the corn made
about 15 bushels an acre, about 6 to 8 bushels of wheat per acre,
and about 20 bushels of rye, and about 20 or 25 bushels of oats.
And , I was raise d there and we had a three-month school. We went
to school through July, August and September, at an old sawmill
shanty. And my daddy left there when I was ab out 12 years oad and
went farther back in Haywood County to a big double-band sawmill.
He went there for the e x press reason to send me and my brother
to a six-mon th school. We was up to a pretty good size. About
the only thing I learned wa s how to hobo a railroad engin e in
old log[ ing trains. It 'd leav e there in the morning ab out the
time my daddy went to work.
I 'd get on it and go to the mountains
and come back in just ab o ut dinnertime and go to the house and
eat my dinner. I went back, I went back to the mountains •• I did
most of the ti me. The thing that got me out of heart about g oing
to school was that most of the students were stupid or dumb or
something o r d i dn't care about learni ng and the tead.her appointed
me to try to help them learn.
nd I went from seat to seat for
a week or two and I wasn't making any progr e ss. They weren't
learning, and the teacher would get on me ••• so I got out of heart
and quit . ' Then my daddy bought a farm in Madison County, moved
back there, and stayed til I reckon it was 1920. But in the
meantime I met my wife and me and her was married. I was 17 years
old, she wa s 16. That 's been 59 years ago .
What year we~e y ou born in?
I was born in 1899 and we decided to come to t h e cotton belt •••
here to M
arion and we come up there and I went to work in the mill.
What year wa s that?
That was 1919 that I went to work in the cotton mill.
Which mill was that? Was1 that in •••
That was Clinchfield.
Clin chfield?
It's Clinchfield. The one that you came by.
The bi e one?
And the mill run 12 hours a day. Of cours e , the day I worked was
10 hours , but the wheels and machinery they would stop at 12
hou rs.
I went to work in the card room for a dollar for 10
hours, got a dollar a day. I paid 45 cents per week for house
rent, for a three-room house.
W
as it a mill village then, that you lived in?
Yeah.
Clinchfield mill villa g e?
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Yeah, Cli n chfield village.
Did you have to live in the mill village to work in the mill?
No, you didn't have to but it was cheaper. They furnished the
house. It took 700 hands to run the two mills at that time. We
was up there, I don't remember how many years, several years
though. There was a man who come in here organized a union.
What years?
Two cotton mills.
Was that in 1929?
I guess it was. Yeah , it wa s. And oh, he got the East Marion
mill pretty well organi zed . The mill I was working in, they
never did go so str ong for the union. All of the bus i nesses in
M
arion was bitterly opposed to it.
To the union?
Yeah , to the union. And, of course, by me being nonunion, I
was let in the inside of wha t was going to happen. I was sworn
to secrecy not to tell anybody what I knowed about what was go i ng
to happen. But I knowed the union wasn ' t gping to win and I
knowed the unio~··· ah, the company was not going to accept it,
the people wasn t going to accept it. The town and the businesses
wasn't going to accept it. They were se ar ching all the time for
something that they could try the union organizer for, in the law.
Take a warrant for him ahd try him.
Do you remember his name?
Hoffman . And he went right on and closed the mill I was working
at for three weeks a nd they got ready to start it up and they told
us all where to get to, t o come in on a certa i n Mo nday morning .
And we went there, and I was the first person to get ther e th t
morning , me and my brother-in-law. We went up on a bank and the
union neve~ did see us. But when they began to gather in, to go
to work, the union people they was on the picket line, they had
the spies and they all came in there. And the union got to
singing hymns and inviting people t o come to the ••• to be saved,
t hat is come in and join the union. And th9 superintendent,
Henderson, he c a me in and when he went to open the gate, why some
of them caught his coattails and drug him backwards. So he said
ev e rybody go home.
o we all went home and in another week they
notified us to gather up one day again a t 12 o'clock at the company
office.
That was the superintendent's office?
Yeah, so that day we all come and there was number one, number
two mill and we wa s going to try to start up number two mill.
It was the b iggest mill.
nd of course the union was evtErywhere.
It was closed. h nd we got the ••• finally got the soldiers in
there. 'l bey pushed t h em back.
nd we got inside t h e lock.
W
ell, we had enough help to start the smaller mill.
o they took
us all ov e r to the smaller mill and we started up at 12 o'clock
that day. Then after that, it was all over with. They cut the
hours down at the mi l l. Of course all along they'd be.gun rais i ng
the wag es. And I had got up to piecework and I made 18 dollars
and 75 cents a we ek , five days and a half on piece work.
ow many hours a d ay?
W
ell, I worked 12 hours a day b e cau s e every hour I worked was more
money to me. They started t h e machi n e ry at 6 o 'clock in the
morning, but I was always on hand to start my ·ob. Then me and
somebody would work together, and he wo uld take my job am. his
�J.
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too while I was of f to l u nch. And I'd come back and watch h is
job and mine too and he would g o to luhch. So we never let our
machinery stop. I was running frames in the card room, and it
went on that way and after that was all over with, all blowed
away, they went to putting one, couldn't have one man, put t ing
two men on a ••• putting one man on the job two men had been
running. And it just kept getting worse and worse.
Was that after the strike in 1929?
Yeah.
~hat was after that?
Yeah.
nd then they ••• thing s got so bad through the Depression
and they cut us down to half a day at a time. I went of a
morning and worked u ntil twelve and so mebody would come in and
run my job in the afternoon. But I had a wife and at that time
five children and I couldn 1 t feed anyone on it. So I quit and
went into farming, and went to farming.
Do you remember what year that was? In the early JO's?
Yeah. The early JO's. And them people that was left up there,
they didn't have no way to get out. But I had connections with
that person who had some property. I was always pretty bad to
talk and get acquainted and find about people, make friends with
people. So I had connecti ons with a rich man who owned all this
land from here, I mean right where this house is, and he rented
me his farm a nd
farmed it for five years. At that time, the
cotton mills picked up again ••• still stretched out.
e called
it the stretch out.
I went back to work to get my old job and
I worked about five years. And I b ought a farm, southe ast of
this county ri ght down near the Burke P ounty, Rutherford County
line. W
ent down ther e and stayed for six years.
W a t community wa s that?
h
That's the Dysartsvill e Community. And after I sold out that
place down the re, my motive t h en was to work out Social Security.
Th en you cou ldn't carry Social Security if y u we ren't working
for the company , but they chang6d theJaw after a while.
nd
in the meantime, by work i ng in the cotton mill I took what they
call emphy sema, brownlung we called it. I was afraid to go back
in t h e cotton mills on account of that so I went to Drexel
Furnitu r e Company and went to work for them.
Wher e is that?
I t's up here in M
arion.
nd I worked there for 15 years. So I
worked in t he cot t on mills for 15 years, I farmed for 15 years,
and I worked for Drexel Furniture Company 15 years. I made
4 5 years u ntil I r e tir ed. Th e fir s t of this year will be 14
years after I retired. And as far a s the mountains is c oncerned,
where I wa s rais ed, people wore out their land.
ot to where it
wou ldn't produce. One other thing tha t I didn't mention that
i t g re w good was tobacco back in them mountains.
Wa s there a good market for it?
Yeah. Pe ople ma d e pret t y good money a t it. A lot of people, they
didn't when I was a ch i ld, but af ter I got up about grown, people
g ot into tobacco, raising tobacco and mad e more and more after
I left. W been in this county about, a b out 5~ , ~ea!!B . fhat's
e
wh en we left Ma dison County. I was r ai sed inMAi~~ & · County , and
my wife was raised in M
adison County. ~ hat's mountain counties
�4.
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and my daddy bought a farm in Madison County . Tha t 's how come
we were living in Madison County when me and her wa s marr ied.
And her father owned a farm a nd it was wore out when he g ot it,
and he ain't ever d one muc h to build it up. And after me and
her c om e here,her who le family come too, in about a yeBl'and lived
here.
Did they come to work in the mills?
Yeah . The y c me to work in the mi l ls.
I t was he a ven to them,
to work in the mills and draw a payday, however small. But to
have payday every week and they had about thr e e or four chi ldren
old enough to work i n the mill .
How old did you have to be before you could go to work in the mill?
W
ell, back when I was a child, they put c hildren in the mill that
was e i ght years old.
Eight years old?
igh t years old.
What did they have them doing?
They were work i ng in t h e spinning r o om, spinning, swe eping the
floor.
I knowed a man, he 1 s been dead about two or three year· s.
He told me he went in t he mill when he was eight y e a rs old, worke d
there until he retired. He was an overseer for a bout lS or 20
years. But when my wife's p eople came here y ou h a d to be 14,
a ch i ld h a d to be 14 years old. You had to prove your a ge.
That wo u ld have been during the 2o•: s?
Yeah . And then they got it up ••• Yeah, then I think they fina l ly
got it up after I left there to where you had to be 16 before
they let t hem work in the mills. But when I first come to the
cotton mill with my brothers and sisters working i n there a nd
have little children, brothers and sisters, and the y'd take them
in there six, eight and ten years old and help to run. Anybody
going · n the cotton mill worked. ~ here wasn't nothing to it.
Did they pay, was th ere a pa y di ff erence for young •••
Yeah , you had to start off with the smallest wage and after you got
to where you cou ld run piece work, of course,you g ot a raise. Paid
better .
'pinners h a d to h a ve p iece work, we was in piece work and
carders had to h ave piece work.
hen they had day labor too. Hut
the day labor never did work but ten hours. They let them off,
they went to work at seven , let them off an hour lunch, and they
quit at six that evening.
iece workers, naturally, they would go
mor e hours a nd then of course I was y oung, pretty ambitious a nd
with family to support and I liked to get two hours more because
I made more. But they f :!. nally-I'm gett i ng a ll this mixed up-they f l nal ly got a case against the union or ganizer. 'l' oo k h im
to court. Tried him and he got a fine.
• urned him loose, he
r
went on down t h e coun t ry somewhere , I for g et where he went to,
went to organiz i ng down ther ~ and they got a case against him and
they came to Mari on to l nvesti r at e wha t went on ab out him around
here. And I don 't know exactly wha t the y ever did do with him.
But he t old them he organized Kingsp ort, Tennes s ee, that he was
over there or ganiz i ng, working on a union, to raise a union .
ell,
so me of the strikers here, to be sure,
they went over th e re to
check on him . They said that when they got there, the re was the
roughest looking man they ever saw with two .45 pistols walk ing
arou nd the gate , keeping the gate . Said they asked him had the mill
ever been uni onized and said he went to cus sing , said no, it
hadn't be e n organi 7.ed. ' hey run all the unions off. well, they
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run the most of them off here.
hey was defeated.
(inaudib le)
••• frie nds that hadn't jo i ned to beg for them and get them
(inaudible) ••• But naturally, I have, all of my l i fe, been opposed
to t he uni o ns.
I think, now this is just my opinion, I may be
100 percent wrong, but I believe the unions is the thing that
caused us to have the most troubles (i naudible) •• I think they
are what is causing 1.us to have high prices now.
Because when
they organize where they have to pay u~i o n wages, they have to
p a y s o much to pr0duce the stuff then they must let prices rise
to come out on it.
hen the poor class of people, people on
ocial Security l i ke me a n d my wife, we h a ve to pinch pennies,
to g et by. Buy only stuff t ha t's necessary. Of course, back
in the Depressi on, during the JO's and late 20's, there were people
who wer e out of work and strugg led to fesi their famili es .
nd
a 24-pound of flour about 65 cents, five pounds of su gar 25 cents,
a pound of coffee 15, all suc h as that. In the Depression when
th er e wa sn't so much union ••• ow, the people that have to pay the
union wages, to g e t t h eir stuff produced have to have a big price
on it to come out. And I guess the uni ons have done s orr.e good
but I th ink it's done more dama ge than any k i. nd of good, taki ng
all around. And I 've alwa ys been opposed to it and I guess I
always will be. I 've had some people, some v e ry close friends
belong. I n f a ct, some of my close relatives lost their jobs
up her e on ac c ount of uni on. ~ hey hired so me back but some had
to le ave. That's about all now,unless you want to ask questions.
You can ask questions about anythi n g you want to. I ' l l do my
b est to answer them.
You we re sayi ng awhile ag o that one of the reasons you all c ame to
M
arion was because the farming wasn't all that good. Now, did
you, your father owned the farm in M
adison County but you said
something about the soil th ere had been leached out, wouldn't
grow very well. Could you have had part of that f arm yourself?
No; there wasn't enough of it. There was just fifty acres.
How many brothers did you have?
I just had one •
Just one brother?
Only one of us could have l i ved on half of it.
I t j ust wouldn ' t produce?
No . It took the whole farm of fifty acres because it had been
cleared up , mostly cleared up and worn out before my father
bought it. M wife and father and mother, they had eight
y
c hildren when the y left there. He owned fifty acres, and his
land was wore out. Most of it washed away up there in the
mountains.
It was steep cou ntry?
Yeah . It was pretty straight up there •
Is there any way to estimate what, say, it was possible to
e a rn off of a farm of tha t size then?
Well, you t ake a farm of tha t size, my f a ther was selling
livestock and didn't mak e any grain to sell on that small place.
Now, he did where I was raised, where he had so much land. But
about, I 'd say about six hundred dollars a year was about wha t
he got out of his livestock he had for sale. Of course, the
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living , he had his l i ving made there, he made it there. Didn't
hav e to buy gr oceries or anything like that. About all the
money he got was clea r to stick in his pocket, clear. 'Cause he
made all his seed and in summertime he had pasture to run on.
As far as having any money and investing it, why wit h out he
too k a notion to buy so methi ng, he didn't have any at all. It
was all cle a r. When I was a child on the farm, I was raised
on, company land. I seen him in t h e fall of the year when lie'd
sold his livestock, and wha t stuff he raised on his farm for
sale, I ' ve known him sticking that money i n his pocket and going
out over the country want i ng so mebody to loan it to. He didn't
need it, didn't want it, didn't want to carry it. He got about
six percent intere s t on it and he felt safer of course when he
wasn't ca rryi n g it i n his p ocket. He just didn't want to carr y
it arou nd. Go out and hunt somebod y to loan it to, and sometimes
it was hard to do •••
Wasn't as much use for money then as ther e is or was later on,
was there?
A.
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Q.
There wasn't mu ch you had to buy •
The only person who would borrow it was somebody who wanted to
add nore livestock. And of course, in them days, livestock all
run outside, in the mountains, fenced up your fields. ~ ow in
the mountain s it was ready to be put on the market in the
fall. It got fat and was ready for t h e market . He just brought
it off the r a nge and put it right on the market. An:i a year or
two year-old •••
.Al,.
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Beginning of side 2
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Your father owned tha t farm free and clear?
Yeah , the last p lace. I n fact, that ' s the only p lace he ever
owned.
In M
adison County?
Yeah . He finally sold it out and came her e to Mari on too.
So your family and your wife's family came to M
arion?
Yeah.
Did they come for the expressed purpose of working in the mills?
W
orki ng in the cot t on mills.
So you all pretty much figured it was, that staying on the farm
of that size was not going to bring you suf f icient income to raise
a family.
Wel l , that wasn't my father's c oncern. He wasn't worrying about
the income he made, he made as much money as he cared about.
He wanted to get rid of the harder work. Working l n the cotton
mill was not as hard work as running one of them mount ain farms.
Of course, me and my brother wa s married. Just him and my
mother we re living on the farm. He ca me here to work in the mill.
Him and my mother both worked. M mother didn 't work too much
y
but she worked some. He sold out. He give ~35 0 for the place
he owned. The feller except ed the timber but he had in the
trade to saw him house timber. And he built a house out of
great big boards, built a barn, cleared some land, built some
fence. Kept it I don't know for how many years and he sold it
for $2200. Aft er he comehere , a ft e r we all come here, he divided
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that $2200 with me and my brother, give me $1100 and give my
brother $1100 .
Of course, you take the mountain people who
learn to do what they do themselves and lea rn how to do wi thout.
And he saved money all the time,he laid money back all the time.
Not much, but some that after a year or so it began to count up.
He got enough money saved that he bought that place right across
the road there where that house stood. He stared there for 12
or 15 years, I guess. When he retired,he got $ 22 a month and
mother drawed off ofhim and she got half as much.
'he got $ 11.
Both together got like $33 . Well , they laid away some of that
every month, some of that $33 because they made everything we
e a t r ight over there .
This wasn't built up out in here as it is. It's farm country.
There was one build i ng right out here, that house, and one out
here on top of the hill. That 's all there was, just there at the
top of the hill up yonder plumb down to Ne bo. Uns e ttled.
How did you learn that the mil ls we re here?
Well , I had friends tha t had left there and c orre here and worked.
They came back home.
vid they leave for the same reasons?
Yeah , for the reasons coming to the co tton mill to work.
When they came back home andyou learned from them, they were just
visiting?
Yes. I n fact, when me and my wife moved here there was a young
man that we knowed had been h e re and worked and he came back with
us. In 1918, when that awful flu ep:t.demic come in here. W was
e
here at c1·nchfield, and we had one ch i ld less than a year old
who had flu.
('Wife speaks) No, we all had the flu and it looked •••
(Hicks r e sumes) No, it looked like it was going to be so long
b e fore I could even get back to work, well, I had a little home •••
so we went back there and stayed a year and then come back. (wife
speaks) Then we c ome back to the cotton mills .
That would have been in the early 20 1 s?
(wife) Yeah , the la st time we come back.
And you came back th a t time to stay?
Yeah.
1e been here ever since.
I n this country, but not whe r e
we'r e living. Here in McDowell County.
The people who we re working in the mills during the early 20 1 s
after you all came back, came h e re the second time, were they
from McDowell County?
No . M
ost of the people in M
cDowell County wouldn't work in •••
might few people from McDowell County that would work in the
cot ton mills at all.
Only a few people?
Mighty few.
It was a disgrace for people in this county t o
work in a cot t on mill .
I t was made up of mountain people. (wife
speaks) That 's all it was •• ( inau d ible) (Hicks resumes) M
adison,
Haywood , Mitchell, Yancey, Avery , Watauga countie s.
ost of
the people that wo~ked here was from Haywood County where I come
f rom.
M
ost of the people i n Clinchfield?
Yeah .
Some people would get maybe in debt back at home. Th ey
had a home, but they'd get in debt and couldn't ••• an:l they'd
come here, their whole f amily, go to work until they paid that debt.
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When they paid t h is debt, they'd take off back home.
Is it your fe e ling that the people that came here from the other
counties to work in the mills came for the reasons you've said.
That is, it was either impossible or hard to make a good living
on the farm?
Yeah .
And the reason they came here was because they might find work
a little easier and there was some more money?
Yeah. In the end of the year, you co 1ld make more money up
here in a cotton mill than you would out on the farm. But
people lived hard. The houses were cheap. The house we l ived
in, y ou co ld set in the house and see daylight almo yt anywhere
you looked.
W s that the mill house?
a
That was the mill h ous e . They'd have people ••• they finally at
last sold them to the hands . Most all the houses repaired (inaudible)
nd what did you pay for rent?
45 cents a week for a three-room house.
nd wh en you first started in the mills, y ou were making somewhere
near $10 a week?
Yeah, around that.
When people in, say, ~ adison County were looking around for
something to do other than stay on the farm, wha t else could they
have done, say, besides stay there or come to the mi l ls? Wa s
there a lot of timbering back then?
No , not then. When people began to c ome to the mills,the timber
business was ove r with. Peop le had log , ed out all. the timber.
What was the name of the comp any that owned all the farm where
you were born? W
as it a lumber company?
No, it was just a big land company. Uptogo (?) I believe was
the name of the company a nd then the Boise Hardwood Lumb e r Company
finally bought the whole mountain.
Boise?
Yeah, Boise Hardwood Lumber Company .
nd they built a narrowguage railroad up in them mountains and set their band mill at
Hartford , Tennessee.
ell, they were working on that when I
left. Of course, I could have went to work for them but it was
a little too rough, for me. I went down there and helped t h em clean
off the ri ght of way for the railroad up Pigeon River. That was
after me and my wife got married . And of course one thing that
bluffed me out on it, everythin g in the whole country c ame in
ther e to work.
On that railroad?
Yeah . Cutting timber and logg ing . Drunkards, murderers, everything
else .
I t wasn't no fit place I felt like to raise a family.
And , I help ed clean off the right of way on Pigeon tliver. I-40
goes down through there.
(wife speaks ) Where he was raised, now
it's a game pres e rve.
vhat' s the name of it? (Hi cks resumes)
Yeah , in orth Carolina and part in Tennessee . Have y ou ever
be en down I - 40?
Yes sir. I know a fellow who lives out at t h e foot of l t.
J;'.isgah. He 's out on the Pigeon River . Clark's his name (inaudible).
1
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rr you went down I - 40, do you kn ow that W
alters (?) dam, that
dammed up P igeon River?
uns the water through the moun ta _ns
and comes out at 1v'a terville? 'r o a powerhouse?
I know wher e the river's down below I - 40 there. But I don't
remember it .
Well , I don't guess you've ever noticed ••• (wife speaks) Did you
see the powerhouse when you ••• ? (Hicks resu mes) W
ell, back up
t h is way there's a sign up there tm.t says the Harmon Den , on
a post .
I remember t hat .
Well , right there, just a lit t le piece up that creek was wher e I
was barned an d raised .
That is up and down country , isn ' t it?
Yeah .
Good bit steeper t h an around here?
I've t o ok peop le down through there and told them I helped clear
off that right of way . The~ say I don ' t see how you stood up
on that hill . And I could n t now of course , but I could then ,
when I was a young man .
hey say people had one leg shorter than the other so they could
stand on the ~ide of a hill .
(pause) You said that when you came
here you d i dn t h a ve to live in the mill village?
No . You didn ' t ha re to but it was cheaper . And ther e weren ' t too
many houses for rent other than in the mill village . or course ,
the cotton mill company wanted you to live in their houses .
But you didn;t have to?
No, you didn t have to •
Did y ou have - to at East arion?
No , you didn't exactly have to but they were the same way . They
wanted them to live in them .
(wife sp ea ks) They h ad bet t er houses
at East 1arion .
They did?
(Hicks) ~eah .
When you start e d out you were working ten hours a day, ri v e and
one - h a lf days a week . Did that chang e much during the 20 1 s?
At some point i n there you went to a 12- h our day .
Ye ah . It changed a lot , now . or course,
think t he.y start up
n ow and run maybe ten hours and the day labor works eight .
But ,
when I was runni ng frames on piece work , in the number two mill ,
it's the biggest mill, the one next to th e highway, there were
23 frame hands in th u t card room to maJ.re roping to make thread
for yarn spinning . And they put in new machinery, bi gge r machinery ,
and the last time I was talk i ng to people that lived and was
work i ng there , they got three hands doing what us 23 done .
· 'hat is a stretch out isn't it?
Yeah, that's a s t retch out .
Did you start out working as ai. carder?
Yeah , I went to runni~cards .
What s being a carder? What does that mean?
Well; that's where the raw c otton comes and you start it into
roping, about the size ofyour finger . It first comes to the
lap room . They make it into big round laps , runs through two
machi nes im there .
nd they take a lot of the waste out of it .
And they make big laps and br i ng it in there and hang it on the
backs or card s . And when the laps run out we laid it down on
a roller , stuck the end of it i n there and it would conB through .
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And we carded it and took a lot more waste out of it. and
made that roping . Then we took that roping in cans to the
drawing f r ames . Them drawing frames, they run it through two
mach i nes there, front d r awing and bac k d.J:rawing. Then it went
from there to what they called slubbers, gre a t bi g heavy work.
That was the first piece work I ever did, running slubb ers.
Then it went to the intermediates. Tha t wa s the job I run the
most .
nd they took the slubb e rs ••• (inaudible). Then we run
it through them interme d iat e s a nd it cut it down to about fourth
of tha t size. But we had to run two spools of cotton togethe r.
That is , t~ of the same size. Then it went from there to tre
spe eders.
nd th ey had to run two together there . And tha t
cut it down to a smaller thread .
nd a stouter thread. fhen it
went from th e re t o th e spinning room and the y respun it on
spinning reels. l n the spinning room. Then it went from the
spinning room into t h e weav e shop .
Did y ou ever work in weaving?
Yeah , I worked in weaving one ti e. First time I ev e r come
her e I worked in the weave roo m.
Did Clinchfield do any finishing then? Or print ing?
No, they d i dn't do any fin ishing. Just white cloth •
Did East ari on?
Yeah . They finished cloth ov e r there.
(wife sp e aks) They do
now. I don't know whether the y used to ••• (Hicks resumes)
They didn 't the n , when I was working in the mill, but the y do now.
They make rayon and use man - made f i b e r over there.
Let me ask you a question about the mills . Was it possible to
move up in a job? Like to be a boss or foreman or something?
W s that pr etty easy or were there so many people that it w s
a
hard to do?
No, it wasn' t hard to do . It was easy to bu i ld up to it. I
built up to that and wo uldn't take the job . Because I didn't
feel like I could put up with the agg ravating help . I was pretty
high -tempered . I knowed ~ e andthem was go i ng to have trouble,
becau se t hey failed to do wha t they were suppos ed to do.
ow
when the bosses got on them, they'd argue back and they just
wouldn't fire anybod y . About the only way they'd fire anybody
was on account of bad char ct e r. I f he t u rned ou t to hav~ a
bad character, why they ' d f ire him right on the spot.
But doing bad work, they wouldn't necessarily fire •••
They wouldn't fire you for that. They'd c o me around and raise
sand with y ou, but they wouldn't fire you for it.
We re there plenty of jobs? W
as there lots of people tryi n g to
get in the mills then or was the re just a few jobs open?
No. There was plenty of jobs. And a lot of peop le co me and
there was h a rdly a n ybody come tha t didn't g e t a job. They
was always ne eding help.
'l 'hat was du r ing the 20 1 s ?
Yeah, because tha t was wh en t h e people wa s coming out of the
mou ntains and off of the fa r ms and they s oon got dissatis f ied
and went back home .
Did a lot o f that happen? Lot of t h em come in, they 'd work
a nd then they went back home?
Yeah , they'd go back home and usually after they went back home
and stayed a year, year and a half, two years , t hey'd come back.
And pr ob ably stay the rest of th e ir lives th a t time.
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Why did they go back to the farms i n the first place?
W
ell, because they'd got dissatisfied . Dissatisfied with
the mills . (wife speaks) Some of them would come to work out
money to buy more land with, or improve their land some .
Oh , the y 'd come and get more money to buy a bigger farm?
(Hicks resumes) Yeah . But them that did that, usually when
they went back home, they stayed .
But the ones that did come
because they kinda got tired of farm ng , in fact young people,
children, th ey all had to leav e the home to get a job.
Why wa.s that?
W
ell , there weren't a ny jobs there , only just the farm •
And -the farm would only support • .•
That was the only sup p ort t here was, and the young peop le
didn't much like it . They wanted payday coming in .
You stayed i n Cl i nchfield pretty much duri n g the 20 1 s . Or did
you ever work East Marion? Or one of the other mills?
Yeah , I went ov e r th e re one time and worked with them awhile .
t East Marion?
Yeah , after I went out on the farm .
I got some lei~ure and
didn't h a ve nothing to do and I went back up to Clinchfield and
they just didn ' t have nothing for me .
They told me to go over to
~ st Marion and tell them that they sent me over there .
And I
went ov e r there a nd told the overseer that I 'd been sent over
there to work about three weeks . He said, well I can't do nothing
but put y ou to work here . Come in in the morning and work .
So , I worked there thre e weeks .
I
I
That would h a ve been during the 30 s, wouldn t it?
No, that was in the early 40's . That was after I'd moved and
bought that farm .
Ioved out on that farm .
It was after c rops
was laid by and everything was over .
1
But up to that time that you all left during the early 30 s ,
you stayed in Clinchfield?
Yep. I was in Clinchfield .
At the time y ou left Cli n chfield , how many hours a week wer e you
working?
I was wo rking 55 .
55 . Do you remember wha t you were bringing home in pay then?
Do you rememb e r what y ou were being paid?
Yeah .
I was makin~ $18 . ?S (inaudible) .
But inthe early 30 s they we re c ut ting back hours and •••
Yeah .
(wife speaks) ••• ri ght after the war , the First W
orld War •
We re the wages during the 20 1 s pretty much steadily going up?
No, they didn't go up fast .
ow , I might AO a I little politicking .
I
I don t know what your politics are .
But that s all right .
I
like you just as g o od to be one as the other .
nd , right after
World War One , let's see , who was elected? arren G. Harding .
· ell , after the election was ov e r with , they c ome around and cut
me down to 85 cents . After the electi on, I was cut down fran
a doll a r .
Why was that?
Just because t hey could . And I don 1 t knov if poll tics had any thing
to do with it or not. But I always blamed Warren · G. Harding for
it . Because he was president when I got cut .
Were the bosses trying to tell you how to vote?
W
ell , up here at Clinchfield , they wanted you to vote straight
De mocrati c tick e t . And if you wasn ' t a Democrat , you didn ' t fare
too g ood .
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But you could get a job if you we re ••• ?
Oh y eah. You could get a job and stay, but they giv e you the
c old shoulder if you wasn't a Democrat.
Do you know if that wa s the same thing at East ari on?
Yeah, t h e same thin g at East 1ari on.
They wanted you to be a Democrat~
Yeah. But now at Drexel Furniture Factory I worked at, you h a d
to be a Republican to get any favor up there. They wanted you
to vobe a straight Republican ticket and all my overseers was
Republican. They led me pretty high . Wh en Nixon wa s running
against ~enne dy, they come around, several of them, and t old me
that they'd done found out that ixon was going to be elected so
I 'd better turn ove r and vote for him. I told t h em he wo uldn't
be elect ed, thi;t I d i dn't think so, that he wruld.
o I had it
I
back in my favor. Of course, I didn t rub it in on any of them,
after Kennedy was elected,you know , and Nixon got beat. But I
never could understand how Nixon ever could get elected. Then
after this Water ate mess, he got elected like all therest of
them do because he had plenty of money or the people that h a d
I
the money was backing him ••• (inaudible). But it wasn t too
long a f ter that that I got on piece work.
ow when you went
in there running c ards like I started running cards, they'd
tell you that if there was anything you'd rather do besides the
job you had, when you got a few minute s off your job, go and
work a t it.
nd help the hand that was running it. And as quick
as y ou got to where they thou ght you could run that job, pretty
well, why they 'd giv e it to you . Give you this same kind of
job. The turnover in the work was awful fast ••• (inaudible).
Do you know why t hat wa s? That t h ere was so much turnover?
W
ell, one thing was, they began that stretch-out system. Of
course, it wasn't too bad at that time, but it started in that
direction and the people that come from 0 outh Caroli n a up here,
just droves of them. I n fact, all our overseers was fro m ~outh
Carolina.
(inaudible) And they'd co me here and they didn't
like North Carol ina. They didn't like the temperature and they
d idn't like the people, didn't like the mills, didn't li~e
nothing about it. Well , they wou ldn't stay long before they'd
go back to South Carolina. And they might co me back aga i n. 3ome
of them did. Of course, some come and stayed.
ow all the
ove rse e rs up there was fr om South Carolina. And I said awhile
a g o where I was off e red an overseer's place, you had first to
start off, they c alled it a fixer. You had to keep the machinery
repaired. They held you res p on sible for the work, the machinery.
And some people would get c areless and make bad work and when
they got on them ab out it, they'd swear that the machine wasn't
working right. So then they'd g et the fixer up and they'd give
him a bawling out. And when the fixer got on to the help, for
the work, why they (inaudible) to tell him what they thought of
him. A~d they didn't hesitate to speak with him. I heard them
talk to the fixers and that was why I was glad li wasn't a fixer
after I heard what they said. Then you went from there to what
you called a second hand. He was over the fixers.
nd he had a
boss carder over him, and a lot of them went on to be the boss
carder, the boss weaver, and the boss spinner. After the old
ones all died out.
End Tape #1
Begin Tap e #2, side 1
�13 .
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You were saying that the fellow you bought thi s land here from
was telling you that the bus i nessmen i n larion didn ' t want the
Clinc hfield mills to come in here?
No, they didn ' t want it to c ome . The people here knowed that
their people wasn ' t going to work at it . And then they regretted
the people t hat it brought in . ( i naudible) too many bad peop le .
But they fell in love with them old mountain people , when the y
come here . They found them to be truthful and honest . Whi c h
they didn ' t exp e ct them to be .
rrl they liked them .
Got along
wi th the m and r e s pect e d them .
You were s aying that a lot of people who might hav e been av ailable
in McDowell County to work i n the mills didn ' t . You ever find
out why?
No . W
ell , they just , it was a disgrace . They consid ered it a
disgr a ce , to work in the c otton mills .
That was the people who were , say , farmi n g here in McDowell Coun t y?
Yep . They lived around here , they was born and raised here , and
they lived hard . They lived a whole l o t harder than they would
if they ' d have worked in the mills .
But they just c ouldn ' t take
a bossman . They didn ' t want no boss i ng .
So they eked out a li v ing
out in the soil . And a f e w of them , a l o t of them , work ed on
the side and made a little blockade liquor . Most of them ended up
inthe chain gang before it was over with . They'd just rather live
off of what the y could make out o n the farm .
You farme d ••• You we r e on a farm in adison County and a farm in
this ar e a . Woul d farming have b e en any eas i er or more profitable
here?
Oh y e s . It was more profitable he r e , of course . I f a rmed with
a man that had an extra good farm .
t had been well took c a re
of and handed down thr ough his grandfather .
nd he finally
(i n audible) . He was a M
urphy . And his grandfather at one time
had owned 100 Negro slaves . And he built bri c k houses and burnt
the bri c k on the place where he built the hou se s for the colo red
people . • hey finally come on down to Condre y (?) , t h e g randson
and gr a nddaughter . There were two granddaughters and one grandson
a ndth em three got all his property .
Was tha t this property , here , or · n Dysartsville?
No , it was this here .
I don ' t know , it was about fi v e or six
hundred acres , all told . Arrl he had a riv e r farm but the Duke
Power Company bought his river l a nd and put water up on it .
nd he heired a lot of wealth from his mo t he r. (wife speaks)
She was a M
urphy and married a Condrey .
(Hi c ks r e sumes) Arrl
he had plenty of mcn ey and he was a hard man to get any of it
out of . He stuc k to it .
I n the 20 1 s and JO's , when you were in the mills , were there any
black people work"ng i n the mills?
Nothing only the scrub b ers . The y h ired a colored man to scrub
and (inau d ible) •
Then it must h a ve been co pany policy not to h i re bla c k people ?
Yeah .
Jell , them mounta i n people - wh e r e we re you raised at ,
in the mounta i ns or down in the cou ntry?
Down farther east .
ell , I can g iv e you a little informati on about that .
ow , them
W
mountain people was awful op p os ed to the colored people .
hey
didn ' t allow them in the mountains .
If one went back th e re ,
they killed him . And the peo ple that was work i ng in the mills
would have left if they ' d ever put a colored pe rson in there
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running a nything other than scrubbing. Scrub b ing the floors
(inaudible). Now they're using some of them now, but they
couldn't back then b e cause t h e people wou ldn't bear for it.
Up to the time when, you left the mills, there were no black
people work ing •••
No black people in th e re. Only the scrubbers.
During the 20 1 s and before you left the mills, how were mill
workers, people tha t worked in the mills like yourself, how
were they treated around town?
When you went to town to do
some shopping or something?
Wel l , they was high ly respected by the bus · nesses in town
because the bus i nesses in town knowed that Wu S where their mo ney
was comi n g from. And they knowed they was go i ng to get ev e ryt h ing
that the mill peo p le got ahold of.
So where busin es smen might h a ve opposed the mills coming in, they
were happy once the mill workers were here spending their money?
When they was getting the money.
nd the peo p le that was opposed
to it ever be i ng put here was happy about it once it got here.
Another thing. You were say ing ear lier that at some point some
of your bosses, i mmediate bos s es, were from South Carolina.
Yeah . W
ell, the main overseer was.
Was that true most of the time during the 20 1 s and early JO's?
Why was that? Did they ••• ?
Well , they ••• North Carol i na peop le didn't know the cotton mills.
And you know that ' outh Carolina was full of cotton mills and
everybody worked the cotton mills down there.
(wife speaks)
They didn't raise no cotton in orth Carolina much . (Hicks resumes)
And they knowed the mills . And sev e ral of them ••• my overseer
and a lot of the other overse e rs, the main overse e r, when they
found out that the mills was going to come here to arion , they
took correspo ndence co u rses in textiles. So they come prepared
to •• educati on for work and all . ~nd they really could handle
the cot on mill machinery . l'hey really coul d. I mean in running
the mac h i nery.
aking rope and thread and stuff like that. It
seemed to be na tural, b e c a use they had be en raised with it.
Do you know where Clinchfield and East ar i on got most of the raw
cotton they proces s ed?
Well , they got it out of the main market . The c otton market.
(inaudible) that bought and sold to these companies ••• (w ife
speaks) It come from South Carolina mostly ••• (Hic k s resumes)
W
ell , most of it did (inaudible) Anywhere t hey raised cotton.
Now , a t the time of the Depression , big cotton farmers come ·here
to try to sell t h eir cotton direct to the companies.
Did t hat work?
No. Th e company wouldn't b u y it. They to l d t h em to sell it to
these companies and they'd rebuy it from thEm. Shipped up here
by the carlo a d, one carload after another .
Why wouldn't they buy it direct?
Well , they had a standing contra ct with these bi g companies and
naturally the peo p le that have the mo ney get th i ngs dore the way
they wanted done.
The big cotton-buying co mpanies that bought the cotton and then
s old it to, say, Clinchfield . Do you know wher e they wer e ?
ere they in Balti more? Or New York?
W
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W
ell , they was way off somewhere . I don't k now for sure where
the y was at, but t h ey s e nt men i n at the fall of th e year , you
know, t o bid on the ~o tton for ginning . There never was but
one cotton gin in North Carolina that I know of .
It wa s down
near crest City .
It's gone out of business , I thin k , now .
It
was a small unit.
Let me ask you another que s ti on about that strike in 1929 . About
how many peo p le in C1inchfield were part of the union or supported
the strike?
I ' d say about , there was about one f::l:fth :,at Cli nchfield . Of
course there wa s more than tha t at East M
ari on .
And there was about 70 0 p e ople at work in Clinchfield? Then ,
in 1929?
Yes . At Cl "nchf ield, at the mill . And I don ' t know how many
worked at East ari on . It was a smaller mill than either one
of these up here . But there wa s about half of the people at
East arion that claimed for it . Finally got two or three kil l ed
over there .
Why was it that the workers at East arion supporte d it more than
at Cl i nchfield?
I don ' t know ••• I never have be e n able to understand that .
It
r eally was a bett e r place to work t b an Clinchfield.
t was?
Yeah , it was .
Was it better in t e rms of the mo ney you made or •.• ?
o, it wa s not the money but the work : ng conditions was bett e r .
You said earlier that the mill village at East Hari on had better
houses?
(wife speaks) Yeah.
(Hicks speaks) W l l , East t arion had better
e
homes for the people to live in .
(wife r esumes) ••• loo ked nicer
on the outside . I never have been in one of them . before .
Did you all know many of the peop le tha t worked at East Mar ·o n?
Yeah . I knowed a lot of the m. I knowed some of them well , one
of the old men that got killed was from Clinchfield .
Do you remember his name?
Yes . He was a Vickers . I knew him well .
Sam Vi c kers?
Yeah .
(wife speaks) He co . e from D ~ sartsville to the cotton mills .
(H ick s resumes) He got into the union . And some of them w&s so
stubborn that they wo uldn't have went back if the company had
told them to . But the most of them they wou ldn't let come back .
M
ost of them th a t joined the uni on?
Yeah .
nd they come around , I lived up here at Clinchfield at
that time, and they co me around one morning with a bi g old mega phone horn , around in a car . I was just getting ready to go to
work . They was hollering that everybody at East ar i on had been
run off . Ev e rybody at East M
arin has been run off . Tha t 's all
they said . W
ell , the people h ere from Cl i nchfield , well , that
joined the uni o n and was sticking to it , t h e y just took off ar:rl
went over there . But when they got there , why people was bunched
up into two bunches, union here and the non- uni o n up here • And
there was so me people, somehow, I don't k now how they d one it ,
some of them had got in the mill .
nd they was up in the card
room , up in the spinning room top floor , and they got a rifle in
the re . And the union f i nally at last went to sho oting guns (inaudible)
�16.
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And there wa s three peop le killed. One wa s old man J ona s.
e
was from East lar ion. Old Sam Vickers and I forget the other
fel l er's name .
(wife) He was a g ood old man, Vickers was.
(Hic k s res u mes) Yes , he was. He just got into that union.
e
liv ed,he had a home, he had a farm in Dysartsville. And he
had left it to come up here, but he was raised in hutherford
County . ~ nd he c ome up here and went to work. Had a great big
bunch of girls.
(inaudible)
Who wa s it ••• how was t h e union organized at Clinchfield? LJid
they get a couple of t h e workers to go a round and talk to each
person abou t joining?
Yeah . They first went to h olding a meeting about halfway b etween
Clinchfield and East
r i on.
nd a few of the Cli n chfield peop le
went out there and they liked what the o ld man promised them.
Promtsed t h em shorter hou rs and higher wages. If one of them
d i dn t like the boss, they'd run him off. So forth and so on.
They was going to appoin t common workers to be the hea4 man.
nd there was one old man, he was a Baker, and he didn t know a
thing l n the world about a card room. He could run, i fi the picker
r oom making them first laps. But that was about all he k nowed.
But they t o ld him if he joined t h e union, they'd make him a boss
carder.
' o before the mill closed down, he come around to the
card room there and he off e red me a second hand job if I 'd come
work for him when he got t hy place. I told him, oh yeah, yeah.
Of course, I knowed he wasn t going to get placed . And so he
g ot run off thinking that I -wou ld have been his boss man if he
had gotten the job they offered him.
nd he couldn ' t have run
the (inaudible) , much less the card room. And the peop le got to
talking it up, the ones that, had joined. Of course, they was
I
awful secretive about it. rhey didn t want many people to know
at Clinchfield. And •••
They were afraid of losin g their jobs?
Yeah. They was afraid of losing their j obs. Out they'd t a lk it
a lit t le and the strikers got gathering up at night after we went
back to work and they'd sh oot dynamite all night. 1 ight around
the mill villag e. Hard for a ma n to sleep. I can tell y ou one
pretty goo~ tale about that. I don't knew whether we ought to go
into that or not. But there wa s a fel le r when them strikers,
he had a little old dog ab out the size of that one and they'd
t rained it to t h row st i cks and it would go and get them. Bring
them back. That feller decided to get even with them.
e got
him some dynamite and he loaded up a stick one night and throwed
it down toward the ra i lro a d.
ell, that little dog seen him throw
it and he went and got it and brought it back. Got it back into
his yard before it exploded. I asked him , I said if, ever find
any of your dog . And he said no I never did find a p iece of it.
Blowed it all away,
(wife spea k s) inaudible .
I was read i ng in the newspaper in 1arion , had stories abou t the
strike and there was one thing I wa s reading about . Said they
had caravans d u ring the strike when both the mills were closed
down, ca ravans of farmers that we r e br:k:ging food i n for the
strikers. Do you know who organized them, or why?
Yeah. A lot of them did. The strikers organized it, but, they
got it started . But they made the farm e rs think they was
winning, go ng to win, and it would be up to them to buy the
farm e rs' food wh en ev e rything was over. lild a lot of people •••
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that wa s the day of th e horse and wagon and a lot of farmers
would bri ng a wagon-load of food in to the strikers and park
somewhere and they'd come and get it . Then the union went to
order i ng when they got out of any thing to eat. The strikers
all had a good garden. Everybody at Clinchf ield had a good
garden . And the strikers, the union man told them t o divide
their gardens with peo p le that didn't have any. W
ell, they'd
come in the r e, they'd pick tomatoes, they'd p ick potatoes , they
p i ck a row of corn, and in a day or two's time the y could clean
his garden out.
nd they went to Hoffman , the head man , and told
him that they had to have something to eat. lild he ordered a
carload of flour.
It come, and people told me that had a right
to know , they said it was from great .big rolli n g mills where they'd
sweep up of a tjight the flour that had sifted out on the floor.
They put it in bags and he ordered it. The people that seen it,
I never did see it , they said it was just as black as tar. People
got to eating that and the y all got sick.
But the farmers in the outlying areas were willing to do that
because they •••
Yeah , t hey thought ••• the uni on had them thinking that the y were
just going to take over. And they was going to help most of
them people buy their products when it was all over with. rnd
they'd bring it in just to give out to them.
You were saying earlier that some peo ple at the Clinchfield mills
had sort of taken you i nto their confidence and were telling you
how everything was going to work. Was that y our supervisors?
Yeah . No, not my supervisors. Me and him was very close
together and he kept me i nformed all the time what wa s going to
happen . I know the union c.ome to me, sent a special group , come
to my h ouse right late one evening. tl nd they told me that they
was giving me, since they liked me , they was giving me my last
c hance to join t he union . And i f I didn't, I was going to have
to leav e . Going to r u n me off if I didn't join the union. And
I knowed then that th ey was the ones that was goi n g to lea ve, and
I was going to stay. Th e way they come about it, they kind of
tole me now since y ou are a special friend of ours, we're giving
you a special c hance to join the uni on. You c an get in without
p aying any dues or anythi ng for so long . And I said, well, I
pretended gnorant i n it. Of course, I co u ldn't say nothing else.
I asked them, I said well, what am I promised1 They said s h orter
hours and higher wages. I said, well, when do I go to work?
I 'm ready to g o to wor k for shorter h ours and higher wages. I
pretended that I thought theunion was going to pay it, you know .
They said, n o, we're just going to make the company do this .
I said, well, if you ' re go ing to make the company do that, I can
do just as good a job at that as you can.
~ o just count me out.
I won't fool with it .
nd the loyal help up there , the y made it
so hard on the strikers after we all got back to work, after the
mills was running, they mad e it so hard on the strikers that
they j ust pulled up and left as fast a s t hey cou ld get away . The
company used so me tri cks too . They went down here somewhere
about outh Caro lina and the y got the roug hest old man and the
sweari ge st o ld man and the most profane old man I ever saw and
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he loaded up some household g oods i n a stati o n wagon. i nd the
union didn't think nothing. He come right on throughthe strikers.
And went to the office. They t ook back ovec there and showed him
an e mpty house and he put that stuff in that hou s e. 'l hey locked
the door. W
ell, the uni on found out . Uow I was working at the
time up in the card room. I didn't do much work.
I stayed at
the window to watch them mostly. I seen everything that happened.
They'd done had the soldiers up here in town, but hadn't brung
them down. They went over there, and t here was an old man, a
good old man, agood friend of mine.
ound the door locked, they
didn't k now wha t to do. He said it wou ldn't do to let that old
man move in there. So that old man that I 'd put so much faith
in, he took a stick and he broke the lock off tre back door of
that house.
Was it the h ouse he was living in?
The house t his old man had put his stuff in . He just , he put
it in the re a nd he left.
nd they carried that stuff out there
and throwed it across the hi ghway. I n front of the mill. And
the company sent a wagon team out there to get it. W
ell, when
they got out there, when they got to doing that, two big old
mules, and they got them mules by the bridles and everyone had
a club. And they got to beating them m
ules ove r the head and
most everywhere.
(wife speaks) The un i on people.
(Hicks resumes)
And they wouldn't let t h em come back. So that's when the soldiers,
they brou ght the soldiers in.
nd they said, the union said,
the so l diers was here to see that the rest of us left. That
was what they said. Well , the soldiers corre down here and they,
with fix ed bayonets, a n d they went to putting half of them this
way and half of them the other way. One old man- I could se e
h im fro m where I wa s at-he stood his ground. He wa sn't going to
run, a nd o ne of the soldiers give him a good poke in the backside
with that bayonet and I mean tha t old man could outrun a mule
af t er that. He just left there . fini then the soldiers stayed
up there for about a week.
(wife) Se ems to me they stayed lo n ger
than that.
Why was it the company went and got that feller from ~outh Carolina
and brou ght him her e with his furniture?
It was after we had went back to work. And then after trey p ut
his household goods back, they brought some more. Then he cane
he r e and they worked him ab out a month. I was glad when he
left . He was ••• (wife speaks) but he said why did they, why
d d they have h im t o come?
(Hicks resumes) Well , they had him
to come for j ust exactly what happ ened. They knowed that the
strikers would tear his stuff up.
Oh . '.!.'hey wanted to get the strikers to do sore thing, to provoke
them?
Yeah .
~ o the soldiers would come.
Yeah . And tre soldiEr s, they'd
told them t h e y wouldn't c ome down here, trey was already up here
in the courthouse. But they wouldn't let t h em come without there
was some violence erupted somewhere. And they went and got that
old ••• and he was the feller that got it started.
Was the r e anythi n g el s e you co u ld rem ember abo ut whether or not
the company had a plan to deal with the union? Did the y tell
you other things that they might have thought about doi n g?
Well , t h e¥ just aimed to be · t them. That was all there was to it.
They d i dn t aim to run under a union .
nd the Cli nchfield company
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did know that they h ad enough lo yal help to start up. ~hey
knowed it wouldn't be no trou ble to g e t e n ou g h .
nd they just
d idn't aim to run under a uni on. And that old man, bri nging
him in, he was the feller t ha t tur ned the tide.
He brought the soldiers, he help ed brin g the soldiers, arrl tm
soldiers could break t h e pickets at the gate?
Yeah.
W
ere there a n y other k i nds of tr i cks l i ke that th a t either side
used, that you could recall?
W
ell, not very much , I don't reck on. Now, t he company, after they
g ot back to work, the union members that was still in com
pany
hou s es, they notif ied them to g et out.
nd some of them left
and the most of them didn't.
nd they went a nd put their stuff
out i n the street. Or on the side of tbe street. t he c ompany
a nd the law did.
Evicted them?
Just piled it up on the si d e of the street. W
ell, the uni on
people they s ome h ow found some kind o f house a nd some of them
went back home. The y was all fr om the mountains.
nd some of
them went bac k home and some of t h em found a house. I had one
of my mother's brothers got into t h e union and one of my daddy's
brothers g ot i nto it.
nd my daddy's brother lived way down
h ere a t
ebo. And he was go ing back a nd forth to work. And they
fired him. And my mother's b r other, they got him a house over
the r e s omewhe re. And he went there and lived until he could find
a place t o mo v e. He went ou t on the f a rm.
' tay ed th ere as l ong
as he lived.
I s the re a nything that made the people that join ed the union any
dif f erent fro m t h o s e that didn't? I mean, were they like fr om
a diff e r e nt a r ea? Or did t h ey have anything in common?
ell, they was all fro m th~. mounta i ns. But the ones tha t I k now e d
W
from t h e mountains a nd back i n where we co ne from was co n sidered
to be boss y and ov e rbearing. That was the way . the y l o oked on t h em
back there at home.
W
ere they the ones that joined the union?
Yeah. They was t h e ones that join ed the union. And th ey was
people that had had their way where they'd lived. ~ ecause people
was afraid of them.
Sort of bossy and mean?
They were bossy and overb e a r i ng.
1
W
ere t h ey y ounger tha n tm people that didn t join the union? Wa s
there any age difference?
No, they were mostly middle-age peop le that joined. Mostly families,
that had a man at the head of t he family.
nd of course the
b osses had always made t h em mad.
h ey'd come around arrl bawl them
ou t about somethi ng.
W
ere t h e y g ood work ers? Or were they poorer workers t han t h o s e
that didn't join the uni o n?
W
ell, they just d o n e wha:; they had to do. uot by with anything
the y cou ld.
he ones tha t I knowed.
Did any of your close friends join t h e uni on?
Yeah •
We re you all still clos e friends t h en?
Yeah. I never did hold that against t h em, because some of them
I talked to, I t old t h e m I said now I don't believe in t h e u nion.
I don't want t h e uni ons. rlut you do •••
n d of Tape # 2, s i de 1
Be gin Tape #2, side 2
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After they broke the strike and broke the union, were most of
those people that was in Clinchfield that were in the uni on, they
eventually g ot them o u t of the mill? They run them out one way
or the other?
·
Yeah. Some of than t ore up their houses before they left (inaudible).
How did the company ••• did they just fire them or make it rough
on them?
They just fired them. Right off.
ost of them. Fired most of them~
Yeah.
Vo you k now where they went?
W
ell, they scattered about everywhere. ~ome of them went out
through the coun try around through M
cDowell County and some went
back to Madison , Haywood , Mitchell County, very Cou nty, Y111 cey,
back in there where they care from.
'ome of them stayed around
McDowell County as long as they 1 ived.
1:y uncle ••• both my
uncles did. Of course, my daddy's brother, he owned a home h e re
at Nebo.
nd worked in the mills I don't know how many years.
A lot l onger than we had. He ha.d a great big bunch of g irls and
they all worked (wife) They still live around here.
(Hicks . resumes)
They give him what they got for their work. It was the change
that come in their ticket. Say they drawed a ticket for $10.50.
He give them the 50 cents. He took the $10. That's the way most
of the parents did. ~nd he saved up enough money to buy him a
home. He had it when he died. A lot of tte parents, they just
let the children pay so much board.
Was there a lot of women that worked in the mills?
Ye ah. There was more women than there was men.
M
ore women than men . Did they do pretty much the same jobs that
the men did?
Yeah .
About the same thing.
LJid they get paid about the same?
Paid the same. All except n ow the rough end of the card room
where I was. L ike the carders, and drawers and intermediates.
'.l'hey was run by men. But the f i ner spinners, the speeders, that
made the f ner yarn, they was all most run by women.
Did they also work i n weaving?
Yeah. Abcut as many women as there was men in t h e weaving.
What about ••• what d id the women do? uid they join the union
in about equal num
bers, or were there fewer women?
No. Th ere wasn't hardly any joined •
The union was mostly men1
Yeah .
Was that true at East larion too?
No . I thi nk it was a loy of women joined over there. I tell you •••
That thing's off now ain t it? You got it cut off now ain't you?
No. It 1 s still on. You want me to stop it?
No. I don't care anybody knowing what I got, was fixi ng to say.
Th e re was one of our next-door neighbors up there at Cl inchfield.
And he joined the union and he had a little ch ld take sick. A
little girl, and he sent after me one evening to come out there
as quick as I could. And I got out there and him and his wife left
the r o om with a little child, and asked me to go in there and
stay with it. And ~ went in there and it died in five minutes after
I got t here.
W
ell, he had a sister that lived at East arion. Her
�21.
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husband belong ed to the union ove r there and they hadn't never
went bac·k to work. And everybody that belong ed to theunion seemed
to think that if you didn't belong to it y ou ought to be afraid of
it.
fraid of physical dama g e. He asked me, he said Perry are
you afraid to go to Ea.st M
ari on? I said no sir, I ain't afraid
to go to East M
ari on. He said you go over there, told me what
house his sist e r lived in and tell my sister to come over here 1
that baby's dead.
So I went to the house and pecked on the door
1
and she come to the door and I told her my business.
hat her
brother's baby had died, s ent for her. She said, well, I'll
have to se e my husband. He's down there on the picket line.
That was before East Mari en had ever started up. Said, I 1 11
h a ve to go down there,and se e him. Sa id I guess you're afraid
to go down there, ain t you? I said no, I a i n't afraid to go
nowhere. I said get in the car and I'll go down there. I went
down there an:i she hunted her husband.
evera.l of them c an e,
eight or ten foot of my car with t h eir clubs. And they was
looki ng at me awful mean, but they never said nothing. And
she talked to her husband and then she come back and got in the
car and I too k her back over ther e to her brother's. And when
I was a young man up there at Clinchfield, I was a man that
everybody looked to for everything. I had to hunt the doctor for
all the people. I had to dig graves for everybody, and I had to
hunt preachers t o preach at funerals, and I had to, well, they
just looked on me as a fre e riding horse. 0 o one n i ght, so me
feller pecked on the door and I went to the doo r and he said
Perry, my wife's having a baby m d I can 1 t get none of my uni on
men to go a fter t h e doctor.
aid, will you go? I said sure,
I 'll go. ~ o I put on my clothes and went out there and got in
the car. I had an old T- model Ford. He said, now are you afraid
to go to the head man? He lived over there between the r e and
Clinchfield. Said, are you afraid t o go to his house? I said not
a bit in the world.
owe went to his house andhe pecked on the
door and his wife come to the door and said he was over at union
headquarters on ~ orehead idge. That wa s a Negro secti on. He
c ome back and said that man's over at the union headquarters and
I guess you're afraid to go over there, ain't y ou? I said no,
I a i n't a bit afraid. Said a re you su r e~ I said I 'm v e ry sure.
So he g ot i n the car and we went over there to that union headquarters. That whole hilltop was covered up witq people. ind
he went in the old bu i lding there. I t had be en an old store
buildi ng. Found t h at man. And they had to get an order fr om the
u ni on bef ore they could get a doctor. He went in there and got
t hat order and brou ght it back and we went up to tov n to an old
doctor. He's b e en dead a good many years, and he wa s an old
country doctor. Name wa s Jonas. And we went to his house and
call ed him out. He promis ed to come. But I went through them
any time I took a noti on to. Part of the time I was mad e n ough
to bitten through nails and part of the time I was a mused, I was
tickled at them.
~hen you would go through the picket lines ?
I went through the picket l i nes. Another thing I ' l l tell · you. They
had t he roads blo c k ed. W
ouldn't l e t anybody in.
W
ell, my
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brother come down through there and me and my wife and family
was over at my daddy's on the other side of the mill • .And my
brother asked me, s a id have the y se rched your car yet? I said
no. He said, well, they will before you get home. He said
t h ey searched my car, and we both had an old t ouring car with
a cloth top. And of course, that finished making me mad. I
didn't have too much farther to go . I told him, y ou get right
behind me and I 'll show you how to go throu gh them. And my wife's
brother had t ook two old F ord c a r horns and tore them up and
put them together. Put it on my car and it made the awfulest
racket you ever hea rd. So he got right behind me and I started.
I had a 1 926 T-model Ford . And we crossed the railroad switch
that goes down to Clinchfield. W
ell, that crowd was all up
there, men and women playing (inaudible) , hav l ng a bi g time.
nd the farther I went, the mad d er I got. So I blowed that old
horn and it went l i ke a railroad whistle. .And they all turned one
another loose and just reached around and picked up them clubs.
They h a d them setting aga i nst the bank and the y watched the road.
And tha t's one time tha t o l d car run good. Just seemed like it
wanted to run g ood. I poured the gas to it, and it was the wnong
thi ng to do. And I went through tha t crowd. They just spread
li k e water. I got to the foot of the hill and told my wife,
said I 'm g o i ng to stop and go back the re. I might have hit
somebody. I 'm sorry that I done that. She commenced to beg me
to go on, s a id y ou'll just g et in a fight. Just go on, go on.
So I went on home. I said, you reckon I hit anybody? He said,
I don't know, but he said they was three and four double deep
on the side just as I come through . Bu t he said that ro d was
ope n, but they was all piled up on the side.
(wife speak s) They
j ust jumped out of the way. You brushed one man . (Hicks res umes)
A few d a ys after tha t, I was off , going back. The y stopp ed a
man , wouldn't let him g o in. I pu l led right up against him.
So they told him he'd have to back out, and go back. Wouldn 't
let h i m go in at all. And he started backing into me and I just
blowed that old horn and held my ground.
Some of them come back
there and looked. Said, let him through , let him t h rough. I t's
this craz·y man back here . He' 11 kill a bunch of us if we don 1 t
let him t h rough. So they let him through, go on, but they
followed h i m ove r there. F irst place he could t u rn around , t h ey
made him turn around and go back (wife spea k s) They was afraid they
was brirgtng i n new hands to the mills, that was wha t •••
Oh . New worke rs to repla ce the strikers?
(Hi cks resumes) Yeah. ~ hat was what they was trying to sto p .
ew
hands coming in. (wife speak s) But they never did try to s top
us no more . Why we lived on cotton mill hill a nd we had to go
out sometime. (Hick s resumes) ow when the soldiers come, they
sea rched my ca r every time I took it out.
(inaudible) Even
raised the back seat and raised t h e tr unk lid. Looked u nder the
hood and ev r y t hing .
Wha t we re t h ey looki ng for?
They wa s looking for weap ons.
Dynamite?
Ye a h . And pistols and ev erythi n g . F irst morning I went in the
mill after t h e soldiers come, the y stopped me abou t seve ral
hundr ed yards from the mill a nd wanted to search me. An d I needed
a poc ke t k nifle on my job, to cut roping.
nd he searched me and
found my p ocket knife . He said, now I 1 11 have to take that • I
�23 .
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said well , I don 't know h ow I'm going to do withou t my pocket
knife . I said , no way I can get it in there? He s a id you might
put it in y our shoe . So I just reached down and stuck it in my
shoe . '.L ook it in there . But I left it in there . I wouldn ' t
brin g it back out . They was afraid sorr:ebody would take a weapon
i n there .
(wife speaks) An d they ' d g e t to fighting (Hicks
res um es) They sent us word o ne eveni ng from East Marion thEt
the y was comi ng over there a nd going to run ev e rybody out of
the place .
Who was going to do that?
That was the union at East arion . And they brought us the word .
W
ell, there wa s p lent y of broom handles in there . mi we had to
make , call t h e m brush sticks . Take a bro om handle and whittle
it off and cut notches in it, and make a brush out of that waste
(inaudible) . To clean up under the machine ry with . And everybody
went to work , some cut the brush off the handle . Some found
a bro om handle . And the feller that had the little dog that
carr ied the dynamite ba ck to the house , he bro u ght him in there ••
g ot h i m a railroad tap off a joi n t on the railroad . He had it
n there m.d he whittled down his broom handle and put that tap
on the end of the broom handle . I watched him fix it .
nd we
wa s go n g to meet th em out at the h e ad of the stairs . I told
h i m, I sai d when we go ou t there a n d me e t them people , I'm going
ri ght behind y ou . He said why? I said , well , there won ' t be
nobody left for me to hit after he gets through with that nut.
nd they had the picket line all around our mill . 'l'he railroad
switch was down t h rough there. W
ell, a lot of them mean bo y s
wou ld g e t nuts , a nd the re was always plenty of old wore out nuts
off of the machi nery . They could get a poc k etful . They slip
1
up ther e and they'd throw them up at the windows .
hey hurt
several people that wa y . But that felle r brought h i m a nut off
the railroa d .
(wife speaks ) W s he aimi ng to throw it at
s omebody? (Hicks resumes) Yeah~ And they'd pick up the nut wh en
it c ome a nd they' d go to the off ice and report it .
nd they c ru ld
look at the nut and tell where it come from . W h a d an of f ice
e
in o ur own depar tment. One old mean boy n the r e , good old boy
but devilish . And he went so mewhere and took a wrenc h and he took
him a ••• got h i m a nut off ••• Come back in there a nd told me , said
you come over here nd watch what I ' m going to do. And I went
over there and of cou r s e he h i d there i n the window a nd they
couldn't see . He throwed that old big railroa d nu t out there .
He d idn't hit anybody, but come ri ght clo s e to . They run a nd
rabb e d it up and look ed at it and we co uld see them .
nd he
said I 1 m wo nd e r i ng if they k now wha t wi ndow that cane out of.
He got it off the railro a d .
Let me try to get the time stra i ght in my mi nd . You c a me to the
mills firs t in 191 9 ?
I guess it wa s 1 1 8 •
1 91 8 . And t h en you a ll lived in the mi ll villag e? And then you
went b a c k to M
adison County? S ta;yed a year and then you come back?
Mov ed back i nto the mill vil l age , and t h en so metime during the
20 1 s, y ou mo ved h er e ?
�24 .
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•
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No . Not here .
Dysartsville?
I first went out on a farm over across the hill, here adjoining
Lake James .
I rented it from an old feller . That wa s old man
Condrey .
When wa s that? What year were you out there?
Now that was in the 20 1 s .
(wife speaks) No, that was in the
30's .
(Hicks resumes) Was it?
(wife) Yeah, because Lois was
a little baby . Shew as born in 1930 and we moved between then
and 1932 . (Hicks)
ow, about the time she was a year old.
(wife)
It was ab out inaudible) when we moved out on the farm .
~ o , did you all then live in the mill villag e all thew ay during
the 20 1 s up to the 30's?
Up to th e 30's when we went out there . No , I bought a little
farm down here at Nebo and we quit the mill and went out ·and
stayed about a year . And ••• (wife sp e aks)But you worle d 'in the
mill. (Hicks resumes) But I worked in the mi l l .
went back and
forth .
And then you finally left the mills in about 31 or 32? To go •••
Yeah . We staye d ou t five years .
And t h en you come back to Drexel?
nd then I went back to Clinchfield .
nd I worked several years
t he n and then I bought that farm in Dysartsville . (wife) Th~
was in 1939 . (Hicks r e sumes) I t was in the early 40's . It was
just abou t the time that W
orld War One was breaking out .
They got three of our oldest boys. In W
orld W
ar umber Two .
How many children did you all h ave?
Ha d six. Six living and two dead . Got four boys and two girls .
You said earlier that you had brown lung . When did you discover
that you h ad that?
Well, I don't know that was what it was . I knowed it was something
bad wrong . Th e last wor k I done in the cotton mills .
That would have been in 1939?
Yeah . About 1939 . And I got a l lergic to everything . Hay fever •
Breathin§ got bad.
hen I went out on the farm and stayed six
years .
old the farm . That was wh en I was talk i ng a b out wanting
to work out ::,ocial Security . To have something to depend on
when I retired .
nd you had to have worked for a company at
that time to carry it ..," And I decided to go back • •• instead of
g o i ng to the cott m mills. They done everything they could to
get me to come back th re . And I went to Drexel Furniture ~ompany .
W
ent to work out on the yard . Handling lumber . And my emphysema
g ot worse, and worse. I got to where I wasn't able to run the
job . Somebody said (inaudible) well satisfied with my work .
When did you 1 k now you h a d b r own lung ?
W
ell, it ain t b e en too many years ago that I knowed for sure
that's what it was (wife speaks) We l l, the doctor told y ou that
was emphysema . He n ever did tell you it was brown lung .
(Hicks
resumes)
No.
lhey cal l it brown lung now . And , W3ll I wrote
t o a doctor that wrote this in the Asheville ~itizen . l old him
h ow I had work ed . And he wrote me back a letter and told me I
had emphysema . But the doctors around Mari o n here they ne~er
cou ld discov e r.
(wife spea ks) They called it athsma .
Just athsma?
�A.
And after I went to wor k up there in the lumber yard, I told my
overseer that it was getting too hard for me.
I'd have to give it
up. He as k ed me what I wanted to do and I told him I thought I wanted
to nightwatch. I'd worked with him a year and a half. So they had no
trouble getting a nightwatchman job. They was having trouble
keeping nightwatchmen. I t was an awful big old p lant and it was awful
spooky . And ther e wa s a lot of people ( inaudible). So they put me
right on. I nightwatched for two years there. .rind in the time I
was there, we built this lit t le old house h ere. Our oldest son's
wife while he wa s i n the Army, bought two a c res a nd a half of land
here.
nd he said he'd give •.• both of them said they'd g ive
e n ough l a nd to build us a house on. W
ell, I didn't much like the
idea of that, but I went ahead and built this little old house.
Cheap lit t le old house.
nd we been here about 30 years.
nd I
nightwatched two years and a half and our children all go t away
from home. There was nobody to stay with my wife. She was afraid
to stay by herself at night. I went and told my bossman that I want ed
on the days hift, something. I didn't k now nothing ab out the furniture
factory, that is the inside of it. Well, he went and got me a job
in the machin e room. Rough (inaudible) where all the lumber all started.
But it was worse than the cot t on mill. F or dust. There wa s dust
ev e rywhere. The ve ry worst thing that I cou ld have done. But
I stuck it out there until I was , got old enoug h to retire. They cut
the a ge down fro m 65 to 62. And on the l''ourth of July, I was 62
in April. Been 63 the next year. W
ell, I went to the Social Security
man here i n a rion and signed up to retire. He fir s t told me, said
you can't retire. Yet. Said it;s all right to sign up, but y ou
can't retire. I said,~11, didn t you know they'd cut the a g e down
to 62? He said no, I didn't know it. W
ell, I said, I been watching
th a t closer than you h av e. So he signed me up and I went back on
M
onday morning after the ~ ourt h of J u ly, went right up to my boss
and tol d him, I said I'm just work i n g a ten day notice and I'm quitting.
He said what's themat t er? I s aid I' m r e tiring.
So he come around
about an hour or two and he said, P e rry y ou can't draw a thing this
year. You've done made o ver $ 1200, and that's all you're a llowed
to make. Wi th them. He said you c a n't draw a cent until next year.
He said l e t's throw that notice away. I said, well, just throw it
a way. He said, well, I never did turn it in nohow. So I worked the
rest of that year and retired. I like to never made it. I had, tl!mt
dust gi v e me hay fever and agitated this collapsed lung. And so at
the end of the year, when they c ome out for Christmas, he come around
to me and said now P erry you're just go i ng to make $ 1200 next
year, ain't you? I said I ain't going to make nothing next year. W
hen
I go out of here a t Christmas, I 'm not comi ng back. Oh, he said, co me
back and work out $ 1200. I said no, I'm done. He s a id,~11, come back
and wor k unt i l yo ur birthday . I said no, I 'm done.
'o I ~ome out the
Christmas vacation and although I was supposed to go back and work a
few days between vacatio n and the first of the year. But I took
pneumonia fe v er. I saw a doctor and wasn't able to go back. But
quick as I was able to go, I went and signed out for release and got
what was coming to me.
nd they beg ed me there yet to come back and
visit, but I ain't n e ver g oing back.
End of Tape #2, sid e 2
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Howie, Sam
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Hicks, Perry
Interview Date
12/31/1975
Location
The location of the interview.
Marion, NC
Number of pages
25 pages
Date digitized
9/19/2014
File size
24.4MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
b6affd7cf20c7fcf3df5c2f7a0b30fa4
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape338_PerryHicks_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Perry Hicks [Feburary 9, 1976]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Howie, Sam
Hicks, Perry
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--20th century
Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--19th century
Hicks, Perry
Description
An account of the resource
Perry Hicks talks about working in a cotton mill in western North Carolina in the early twentieth century. He was born in 1899 and began working at a young age because he dropped out of the six-month school he was attending. He explains the influence the unions had: "naturally, I have, all my life, been opposed to the unions." He says that the unions caused inflation, so the poor people didn't come out ahead anyway. He eventually left the cotton mill because he couldn't support his family.
Boise Hardwood Lumber Company
Burke County N.C.
Clinchfield
Clinchfield company
cotton mill
Drexel Furniture Company
Duke Power Company
Dyartsville
East Marion Mill
farming
flu epidemic
Great Depression
Haywood County N.C.
Madison County N.C.
Marion
mill house
mill work
Perry Hicks
Pigeon River
protests
railroad
Rutherfod County
sawmill
segregation
voting
World War I
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/80c6e96d868d6434c97a40f9fdd09bb7.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
MR . & MRS • ALLEN TOWNSEND
(Note.
Q:
Here the answere are from Mrs. Townsend)
What do you first r emember about the Depression?
How did you lmow it had
starte ?
A:
Well, food always- got so high .
It looked like you didn ' t have enough money
to go cwound, I guess , and you just got the notions of things like that .
Q.
Were you not liVli:ng somewhere w
here you could make your own food?
Did you
have to but it . ?
Ai
It's been for a few years that now at first we raised our own food and , you .
know, we had our own chickens and raised our own meat like that , but then we jus t
couldn 1 t do that so we 1 d just have to have money to buy it .
to work .
I ' ve worked myself to death .
Then Allen got unable
You know, with young ' uns you just can ' t
get out to do.
Q:
Was there anything besides the high prices that you knew that the Depression
was starting?
A:
Well, I re
ot .
It was just everything, you lmow , seemed different and a
shortage of everything .
Q:
What were sane of the things that you, that were hard to get, find , or buy?
A:
Well , I just don •t lmow.
Se emed like that we didn 1 t have much of anything
or couldn ' t get much of anything or something .
Back then there just wasn ' t much
work for anybody to do and we lived in Ashe County at that time .
awfully sick
just coul
1
t
d she had double pneumonia .
.. d1y g t to the doctor .
My mother was
She was going to die and , you lmow,
At that time it was hard .
daddy worked , on a school .gym at Fleet wood and he had to walk .
He worked ,
It ' s four miles
�2
there and
our miles back .
o ' clock in the mornin
~o
That's ei
t
Ue
get there in time .
got back and he was always so give out .
a
and he had to leave at four
It was alw
after dark when he
We young ' µns woul
ork in the crops
So , we cut wood ta make hea:b
around there at hane and we had to cut firewood o
and bad to carry our own water, for a right smart ways .
They couldn ' t hardly
make enough to buy soap and Mama would make ho.memade soap ; make it in a big
kettle to wash our clothes with .
Q:
What kind of crops did you raise?
A:
W
ell, we raised about everything that they could raise .
We raised potatoes ,
corn, cabbage, and we'd make corn bread out of the corn that we raised and we ' d
make what you call himiney out of it and then we canned a lot of stuff .
we dried apples .
Then
I can remember Mama drying a pumpkin, cutting it in rings and
hanging it on sticks over the fireplace to dry.
Q:
What did she do with them .
A:
Take it and cook it .
Make pumpkin pies for us to eat and dry apples and make
dried apple pies .
Q.
So , did you have enough to eat then at this t
A:
W
ell, we had plenty to eat, I reckon, and the way we managed it , you know,
'l
had to do the same thing .
Q.
Did you have to buy anything?
Was there anything that you had to buy'l
Well, there were a lot of people that raised wheat that made their own flour ,
but we ddidn ' t raise any wheat, so we had to buy our own flour , you know, and sugar .
The salt and stuff, fix something to eat and they used to be something like
chicory that people would raise to be a plant .
It would grow in great long roots
�3
and they called it chicory and people would dry that and grind i t up and make
coffee, chicory coffee .
They call it coffee, but it really wasn ' t .
They ' d
take it and percolate, or boil it in a pot like they did all their c offee .
Bout everybody in our neighborhood would raise that and make their own coffee .
There would be a lot of young people now that never heard tell of that .
They
wouldn ' t know what I 1d be talking about and you might not .
Q:
No , I never heard of it .
fas the flour and the sugar and all that hard to
find during the Depression?
A:
Yes , it was .
Q:
Where did you get the money or how dfri you get it?
A:
Well, a lot of times we gathered herbs .
How did you buy it?
Dried herbs like cherry bark and
we 1d pull big wood leaves and skin bi g
ood bar •
thing else to do he would go out in t.
woods and mountains , you know, and cut
When Daddy couldn ' t get any-
the cherry poles and those big wood poles and the closes t one would bring them
home and he ' d chop them up into firewood lengths and we ' d burn them , skin them
in the house of the night .
dry that .
Then burn the wood part of the day and you ' d have to
Some times it would take about a week, you know, to dry the bark and
the leave •
Q.
What did urou do with it?
A:
There was a lot of sang in the mountains .
called it .
I reckon it still grows .
They called it ginseng is what they
I haven ' t seen any in a long time , but we
were always •••• Now there was something you gathered mullen and when it began to
get dry it would stick you up .
bath .
Q:
What was it?
You just had to change your clothe s and take a
�4
A:
I don't know .
It was a little old fuzz or something, you know, and it would
get on you and just itch you to death .
Q:
Was there anything that you can think of that was good about the Depression?
A:
No , I think that everything was bad .
Q:
Well, what was the worst thing about it?
A:
Well, in clothes and food you just didn't have the money to buy it with and
you really couldn 1 t get it because it ;just wasn't there .
Q:
Well , did you or your mother make, your own clothes?
A:
Mama went and made our own clothes and she didn ' t even have a sewing mach-
ine.
She had to sew
with her fingers, or maybe there would be a neighbor some-
where around that would have a sewing machine that didn 1t mind, but usually people
just didn ' t have time for a neighbor to come in, sit down , and stay all day and
sew .
So , she would sew with her fingers and make our clothes and they would
make long dresses that really took more .
so hard .
I guess that was the reason times were
It took more to make the clothes because the dresses were way down to
your feet, you know, had big collars to them .
It really took a lot of material
to make clothes , now you can take a little bit just so your legs are had in it.
Q:
Where did you get the cloth?
A:
Well, thake and but it in
have now .
the town, city.
They didn't have cloth like they
What you could get, it was awfully hard to iron .
then, you lmow.
I wonder what we did make it out of .
varieties of material, you know, like they have now .
I didn 1 t notice it
They didn't have different
A lot of people that raised
sheep would make their own wool, you know , to knit socks and sweaters and things.
Q
:
What do you think caused the Depression?
�s
A:
Well, I just. don ' t know .
Q:
Did you hear any people around blaming any certain people for the Depression1
Ai
No , I don ' t remember if they did .
He was the Republican pres dent .
A lot of people blamed Hoover, you know .
A lot of pe9ple blamed him, because I heard
them say that he had a lot of grain thrown in the ocean that the poor people
could have usedo
It would have made it more plenti'ful, you know , wheat , in the
community.
Q:
They said he threw grain in the ocean?
A:
Instead of giving it out they did that , you know, to make the prices go up .
Q:
Did they, was that true or was the just what the people used to tell?
A:
W
ell, now ! don ' t know if it was true , but that is what they all said .
They
said what made the meat prices go up , they killed a lot of the animals when they
were little .
They didn ' t have feed to feed them.
I think in something like that,
if they managed it right, try to help everybody get a start to have sanething,
because it ain ' t everybody that is poor because they want to be .
Qa
So , did the local, what were the local at titudes towards the leaders of the
government?
A:
W
ell, I just don!.t remember much about them then , because we always lived back
from anybody else and didn ' t have much .
Then young ' uns didn ' t pay any attention
to what they. . . _-_ _ •
Q:
How were the farmers, what was their situation during the Depression?
Do you
thinlc they felt any differently than the people who didn ' t farm?
A:
Yes , because if they that farmed really fared better because they didn ' t have
to buy, you know, all that stuff o It really made a difference all the way around .
�6
Give the farmer some of his money back and give the people , you lmow, something
to eat that they woul dn ' t have had .
Q:
Did you ever sell any of your crops other than the herbs that you collected?
A.
No , not too many, because we were always renters , had the farm on the shares
and usually our part, it would take it, for us to eat .
was the farm that you were on?
Q
:
How big
A:
Well , it would just be small farms that we would be on .
Sometimes it would
be about fi'fteen acres of corn , and then maybe five acres of potatoes , or something like that .
Well , by the time the owner of the land would get his share out
of i t , we wouldn ' t have too much to sell.
We usually always had same potatoes and
beans , to sell .
Q:
How did you think the tenant system worked?
A:
W
ell, you could rent a place and you ' d get house rent .
of the stuff, they ' d give you half of what you made .
If you furnished half
If you couldn't affarEl to
pay for farming equipment, they'd pay for it and you could just end it .
That's
a preetty bad thing, because you had to work a whole lot to make all that .
would taice all your time to aake it .
It
Then , however , it was havested and divided
you didn ' t get much by getting a tmird of it .
So , if ycu were a big family,
you'd have to be careful to make it go around , you know , to do until it was raised
again .
thl~
Q:
Were there very many people doing
A:
Yes , there were a lot of people doing that .
during the Depression?
SeliU!lea to me like that there just
weren ' t too many people that did own their places .
all thouMt was wealthy.
It would be sanebody that we
Maybe there would be two or three tenants on one farm .
The one that did the renting, that owned it, he really come out pretty good , having
�7
several different people .
Q:
Did he sell crops?
A:
Yes , he would sell.
Q:
Did he sell maybe part of the CI'9PS that you harvested really?
A:
Yes , and take it off, maybe to the cities , the town .
were just small and maybe one or two stores .
could take .
Back then the
to~ms
They ' d but everything that you
Then the people that didn 't have it, would come and but it fDom them o
Q:
.Ih you remember any of the work proje cts that were started?
A:
Yes , I can renember that but not until I grew up and got married .
I had t wo
twin brothers so everything was gettin pretty well organized when they got up ,
you know , old enough to work .
Do you remember any of the things that these people on projects did?
A:
I don ' t .
Q:
Were there any other efforts that were made to help recover from the Depression?
A:
I think that what came out when there wasn ' t anything mcuh .
Now what was thi s
Democratic President after Hoover? What was his name?
Q:
Roosevel.t ?
A:
Now it seemed to me like whenever he got in, things began to change .
~an
to build these buildings for schools .
to good .
They be-
That gave people jobs but it didn ' t pay
They ept on until ••• I think they just changed the nam .of it about
the same time .
That was baxk when they started it , that building the gymnasiums
and bigger schools , different room.
Now, back when I went to school , it was
just a one room school building arJI they went from the first grade to seventh .
�8
O
.:
W your father on one-. of the work programs?
as
A:
Yes, that was where he had to work to walk eight miles a day.
miles there and four miles back .
He had to leave at four o 1 clock and cane in at
I don ' t know what time it was .
dark .
It was four
He was so far away, he had to take a light
of the morning to see how to go and we live in Ashe C
omty and that was down at
Fleetwood, you know, where tmy built .
Q:
What was the nome of it where they worked?
A:
It wasn't W . A.
.P
husban
used to
e
They had that going on when I was grown and married .
My
r k on i •
?
A
t
Yes , when me and him were married and then he quit after we got married .
Q:
Was the Depression about over by then?
A:
rle~ ,
yes, pretty much, because everything got to working around until there
was a right smart of work going on and it has been ever since .
Q:
·11e11, what kind of work did you do , Mr. 'l!ownsend?
A:
On thew .
ed buil
a
A.
He worke
hospital ~.
on it some clearing the roads, you know, and he help-
That was up there in town, well, she don ' t know where it
is but they had the old one .
�9
because there were just two brothers .
They was twins so everything
was getting pretty well organized when they got up , you know , old
enough to work .
Do you remember any of the, the t hings that these proje ts, any
of the work that was done on them, wh t they did?
A:
Q:
No, I don't.
fore there any other efforts that were made to help recover
from the
A:
ression?
I think that what came out when there wasn ' t anything much , ••• ow
what was this Democratic President after H
oover?
Q:
As
Roosevelt.
T
Jhat was his name?
l oosevelt?
ow it seemed to me like whenever he got in , things began to change ,
because they began to build, these buildings for the schools, and different
schools ·
1hat gave the pe ople that didn ' t have anything much to do or
to live on, it give them a job, but it didn 't pay too good at the time
being, 1 hey kept on until. •• I think they just changed the name of it
about the same thing is going on now only they raised it up , and gave
it different names •
11
t was back when they started it, th t building
the gymnasiums and bigger schools , different rooms .
Now, back when I
went to school , it was just a one room school building and they went from
the f irst grade t o seventh.
Q:
las
your father on one of the work programs ?
A:
Y
eah, that was where he had to work or walk eight mi les a day,
I.k-
�10
was four miles there and four miles back .
Had t o leave at four o ' clock
arrl cme in at dark j I don ' t know what tbne it was ,
He was
so far
away, he had to take a light , of the morning to see how to go and we
lived in Ashe County and that was down at Fleetw ood, you know , where
they built.
Q:
lhat was the name of it where they worked?
A:
Oh .
Q:
. • p • A•?
No , wasn't ·•• P .
and married .
A.,
because they had that going on when I was grown
y husband used to work on it .
He did?
Yeah , when me and him
~as
married and then he quit after we got married .
at year did you all get marrie ?
'38 .
Q:
W the Depression about over by then?
as
vell , yes , pretty much , because everything got to working around
till there was a right smart of work a going on and it has been ever since .
Q:
· ell what kind of work did you do , M . Townsend?
r
It was •••
Q:
On the work program?
A:
On the
1• .
P . A. he worked on it some
clearing the roads , you know 1
H.e built , helped build, you worked on a hospital, , , what ever hes pi tal ,
the old one , you know, where the old hospital was?
That was , up there
in town , well , she don ' t know where it is at , but they had the old one .
�1Tt.
11
I
(Jc.
He helped work on it and some of them back •••
( ote:
r . Townsend and Jane Efird have been carrying on a
short indecipherable conversation .
Q:
It will be picked up here . )
rlhy don 1 t you tell, talk into there and tell us about working on
the
• P. A., what you remember?
(Laughter)
Q::
ow , you just talk , go ahead and just tell us then .
ou said you
worked on the roads , what di d you have to do?
A:
ell, we fixe d the roads , fiXed the roads down in places ,
places , for people to get in and out .
0
fferent
W hauled dirt and rocks and we
e
fiXed the places so people could get in and out.
Trim the roads , keep
the road , trim the road of bushes and things like that, so people could,
roads would be open .
Q:
.
.
A:
Did you work on that before you were married or after?
Yeah , I worked before I married •
( rs . ·"Townsend)
You just worked before , when we was married and
quit right after .
Q:
at did you do at the hospital, what did you say you helped build
that?
I hauled cement and brick and mortar blocks , I mean cinder blocks .
(Jane Efird speakfng to Janice Young)
during the Depression
(} rs . Townsend)
he could
If they weren 1 t married,
tell something about it .
If you could get him to talk till he'd understand,
he don't seem to remember much.
Q:
(Jane Efird speaking to Janice Y
oung)
aybe if you could let
�12
her ask him .
( Janice speaking to Mrs. Tmmsend)
You could ask him
sane questions that yav. know he would know about .
A:
(l rs . Townsend speaking to
school house at
A:
Q:
A:
You helped build that
alle Crucis didn't you?
(Mr . Townsend)
eah .
• P. A. in that?
(M . Townsend )
rs
( r . Townsend)
Q:
• Townsend)
Yeah , the •T. P . A.
Y , the
eah
•
P . ~A .
built it.
Before you got married , where you living on the farm or · with your
parents?
W
ell, we just had a garden , that' s a ll .
Q:
~ as
it hard to get food then?
I
o, it wasn't so hard .
I just staye d hane an
(lielpe ) my
folks , my daddy and mammy and my brother was all there were of us , so
me and him just stayed there and helpeJ them , looked after them .
Q:
A
:
W
hat di d your father do f or a living?
Tell , he used to work on t he railroads till after he got disabled
till he couldn 't do anything , - couldn't work .
He used to carry the mail, too , didn ' t he?
used to carry the mail.
He kindly ••• ( rs . Townsend)
(M . Townsend)
r
Yeah , he
He carried the mail for several years and he
used to work on the railroad tracks .
Q:
What did he do ?
Y mean on the railroads?
ou
Q:
A:
\
Yeah .
He ftel{)id raise til es , I mean cross ties and things like that .
�13
Q:
Bid you have enough money during the Depression?
A:
Q:
ell , we kindly
made out .
\ ere there any things that were hard to get that you needed?
A:
ell, groceries and things like that weren't as high as they are
now .
There was more and seemed like they were cheaper back then than
there was now .
Oh , we did raise mostly our own stuff from the garden
and things like , we always had corn, corn and potatoes and stuff like
that .
Always had plenty of app les and things like that to live on.
· as there anything that you needed that you had to buy?
ell , we bought some stuff
that we needed such as flour ,
and stuff like that at the store that we needed .
Q:
A:
ere did the money come from to buy the stuff that you needed ?
ell, that was when I was working for that
r.
P . A. business and
then my mother she drew a check every month .
Q:
A:
t kind of check?
County check , they give her a county check , her
and my da dy, a
county check that way every month .
Q:
That was during the Depression?
A:
Y .
eah
Q:
What did they give it for?
A:
They all got it and, they all got rations and things like that with
it .
It was kind of what they called the 01
Age Pension .
I think he is mixed up, th t was just before they died .
(M . Townsend)
rs
�14
Q:
A:
How did you get started on the
• P . A. ?
ell, I just got out there and signed up f or it to give me a job,
something, a job t o work , so I signed up .
I worked up there , I worked
up there the whole time before I was married .
Q
:
~as
it hard work?
· ell , some days it was pre tty hard and some days it wasn ' t .
I
'blilt fires whenever it was col d weather , whenever it was cold why
again they built , kept fires going, to keep warm and everything around.
The bossman always told me , give me the job always keeping fires and
things like that .
Q:
How much did you get paid ?
A:
I couldn't tell you now , how much, it has been •• •
Q:
as it enough?
A:
Huh?
Q:
W what you got paid, was it enough to buy the tllings you needed?
as
O yeah , we ma e out, I made out alright .
h,
Again , I'd get stuff
on credit at the store and then I would soon pay up.
Q:
as +,he pay enough f or
people
t o live on or not?
A:
W
ell, a lot of those ot her peopl e they had rad i os or anything, but
they always paid out, took and got groceries and stuff like that with that .
Q:
A:
D d anybody else in y CfUI' fami l y work on any of those proj ects?
i
o, nobodyA but me worked on i t .
�15
Q:
as it hard to , to get on with work programs ?
A:
o, it wasn ' t so hard to get on and I signed up , up here at Boone .
It wasn't so hard to ge t on .
Q:
A:
Q:
D d people make fun of the people who worked on work projects?
i
o, they never di d, nobody never di
say anything about it .
W
ell, were a lot of people around in your neighborhood workin g
on the project?
A:
Y , there was a lot of people around over there where I lived
eah
that worked on it .
(EN
OF PA_T III )
�16
TAPE .u2 SIDE B PA. T IV
Q:
1
1ell, like over in, I was reading a book that said over in
Kentucky, people that worked in a coal mine •••
A:
Uh, huh •••
Q:
They had it real bad, couldn't get money, couldn't ge t food .
d
you all know people like that?
A:
No .
e never di d have •••
(· rs . Tmms en ) M
ost of the people were , th at would work , a few
people around that wouldn't work , no m tter what kinds of a good job
they had to help them out and they have it pretty rough.
I 'm a having it ri ght now .
Just like
(laughter) A it h s been a couple of
nd
years that I ain ' t been able to work .
The young 'uns helps me out some .
(M . Townsend ) A while back I used to work in the furniture shop
r
down in H
ibriten .
I was down there f or a year or two .
Y
eah, Allen did work in Lenoir at Hibriten some back in
( rs . Townsend)
' 43,
he worked
at H
ibriten.
( r . Townsend)
ibriten and at G
reer's Herb
I worked down there at H
ouse, where they had herbs and things like that you know .
H
I worked
both places down there .
Q:
That was after you got married that you were working down there?
(Mrs . Townsend )
Uh, huh , because what makes me remember it, my
little girl was born while he was working down there and he ha to
stay a week at a time.
�17
Q:
Oh, you didn't live down there?
(M . Townsend)
rs
o, we lived up here and he ' d go down there on
the mail of the first of the week and then he ' d come back the next
weekend .
(He ) Stay a week at the time and I went to my sister's .
They lived over in town and I stayed when my little girl was born.
Q:
D you ever hear of anybody making moonshine during the
id
pression to pay for things ?
Io , I didn't, but I want to tell you sanething my da dy- in-law,
A
llen's father , said that his mo her , the family that she stayed with
that raised her , that they made it and that was on up above where they
lived , and Mr . Townsend said that was why he married
randmaw .
It was
to get her out of the furnace , you know, she was hel ping them make •••
Q: M
oonshine ?
:
Q:
A:
0:
Yeah .
D you remember, during the Depression, the banks closing?
o
o, I don't remember too much about that .
How were businesses affected?
D they lose trade ?
id
ell , I just can ' t tell you , ju t didn't know much about it , you
see , he ' s fifteen years older than I am .
Q:
Did a lot of people move out of the mountains during the Depression
looking f or work?
Y , they did .
es
Q
:
There was a lot of people left, trying t o find work .
D they come back or what happened to them?
id
�18
A:
ell , I don 't know , some of them after so long a time , would
come back , but they waited, I reckon , till sanething,
better and , up here where it opened up .
eems like
ot a little
~it
took
me a long time to remember , I mean, since now , seems like that I
just can't remember back too far or something .
I mean, how things
went or , about business .
Q:
D you remember any women working on any of the Federal ·brk
o
Programs?
A:
The first that I remember about
working, I don ' t remember
wh~t
women
kind it was .
It was at
; ~st
Jefferson
and , it was , now, I ' ve knmri women th t , to be work in the stores , with
merchandi se .
They went and shipped an awful lot of cattle over there
at · rest Jefferson and I don ' t kno
1
where from, I guess it was from
everywhere and they had a stockyard over there and they would kill
them and fix them, give them out, to the people that needed them,
poor people
that.
and it was a job for , some of the women, to help do
To help
to give it out or fix it up , to the ones that
needed it, it give them a job, like people would .
Q:
A:
Q:
A:
That was during the D
epression?
eah .
And it was free?
eah, it was free , to the main people that didn 't have nothing at all .
�19
Q:
· ere there a lot of people like that around?
A:
\· ell , there were several big families , maybe where the families ,
the mother wasn't able to work , well there wasn't work then for .the
women, it's the first I knew women working except , maybe once in a
while , in
st~res
or something or school teacher .
they had great big crowds an
Q:
But -
where
the man, ju t couldn't provi de for them .
•ell, di d you know people like your father who didn 't want to
take things free?
There
was
a lot of people that just wouldn't want to take
things
like that .
Q:
A:
Thy?
ell, I don' t lmow , I guess that made them feel a little bit help-
less or something .
Q:
ell, were the schools affected by the
epression?
ell , back then they didn't have any lunch rooms as I can remember,
anything to offer them at school, they ha d to take their own lunch, those
that didn't live close enou gh , that they could
to eat .
And
rtm
back in a few minutes
so , about something like that I don't remember , the parents
had to buy the books , and the paper and everything that the child used,
see they had to , just buy that and the going to school, it didn't cost
them anything but, the books and the paper , the pencils , stuff like th8t ,
the parents had to pay for it .
Q:
~ell,
do you lmo
they didn't
:
anybody that had to quit because of that , because
ve enough money?
•Jell, they couldn't quit .
They wouldn't allow them to quit .
�20
If they didn 't have it and c
ldn't afford it now I guess it
was maybe scmeway from the school , to give them paper to do
their homework on .
But, it seemed like they didn 't do as
much , as , like they do now .
'·Tere the churches affected in any my?
A:
No, I don't think that they was .
i-. ell, what were , I guess you had people talking about it ,
what were their i deas or attitudes like durine the Depression,
were
they worried about it?
es , about everybody was woITied, afnaid that they cruldn 't
get what they needed, they were going to have to do without, things
that they needed and a lot of them did do without a whole lot and I
guess about everybody did to a certain extent.
Q:
Di
they feel like maybe it wasn't going to en ? W
ere they
afraid that it was going to keep on like th t?
r
ell, I don't know , but I imagine that they do because , now
things that happened, we feel like it .' s going an forever .
Q:
How did they get out of the Depress ion , how did the co1IDtry
get out of the
ression?
·Jell , I reckon everybody must have got together , and worked in,
something to give everybody scmething to do .
Q:
i
at, how did you know it was over, how did you know that the
Depression had ended?
A:
· ell , I guess when everything got better till people could make
it alright .
�21
Q:
A:
o you think that the work programs arrl the federal programs helped?
Y , that helped .
es
f hey gave jobs , but what else do you think helped
Q:
them out?
A: : ell, I don't know , I guess it gave people more ideals , till
they could, could go on and do more , to keep more going , more to do
and causing to be more,
' cause see I reckon it takes talents
and knowledge , to keep it up an
the more that they try to do, the
more you know how to open up , s omething else and I
ess , that's the
way everything got started and to make people feel better anyway and
eally did better .
It's been for a few years , seemed like everybody's
been doing pretty good , but they have to wo k .
Q:
D d you see any l asting effects caus ed by the Depression?
i
o.
Q:
'"ell, do you think , how would you canpare the
~ression
of the
'JO's to the way things are today?
A:
ell , there's been a lot of difference , but there's a lot of
similance (similarity).
H
ere about a year ago , when they began to
close down sane shops and things like that , that reminded me , what it
used to be way back yonder , they wasn ' t nothing open, to do .
Q:
at about family life? Has it been, could you compare the way it
is now as to how it was
A:
uring the Depres ion?
o, I think life goes on pretty well the same .
�22
Q
:
at about prices ?
A:
, ell , there's a difference in prices .
Q:
There are di fferences ?
.
Yeah, there are , there 's a lot of differences , well, everything
i s higher n
than it was back then, but you see , if the prices are
~
low and you don ' t get pay an money, ah , they ain't much difference
in whether you c
make a lot more and the prices are high, than it
i s when you don 1 t get anythin
anything .
0
and you don 1 t have to pay much for
So, it's just as hard, back then when prices were low ,
you didn ' t have anything to buy it with , you couldn ' t get any more
than enough , it's just like it is now , it's just hard life , I reckon ,
'
just you get a whol e lot of money, you have to pay a whole lot and if
you don ' t get much money, well, now if you ain ' t got much money you
have to pay, but then you didn t hav. . to .
Q:
Is there anything else you ' d like to tell about the D
epression,
anything you remember?
· ell, there ain ' t nothing really that I can remember .
Q:
fuat about you M . Townsend , i s there anything you' d like to add ?
r
A:
I don ' t know of anything.
Q:
0.
• , any more questions ?
( END OF
APE)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Townsend, Mrs. & Mr. Allen
Interview Date
9/25/1975
Number of pages
22 pages
Date digitized
9/18/2014
File size
10.2MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
c08dbee4015362a0037fdd0be79ab830
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape335_Mrs&MrAllenTownsend_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mrs. & Mr. Allen Townsend [September 25, 1975]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Townsend, Mrs. & Mr. Allen
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Mountain life--North Carolina--Ashe County--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Ashe County
Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Townsend, Allen
Townsend, Allen, Mrs.
Description
An account of the resource
Mr. and Mrs. Townsend talk about the Depression and how it affected their families. He explains: "It was just everything, you know, seemed different and a shortage of everything." Farmers were the ones who fared the best, because they didn't have to buy in order to support themselves. His family worked on a farm during the Depression, but they didn't own the farm. Most people in Ashe County, because they "lived so far back from everybody else" didn't know much about the political situation, or why the Depression was happening. He remembers that when Roosevelt things changed, and schools started to be built in his area. His father was assigned to a work program and had to walk eight miles a day to get to work.
Allen Townsend
Ashe County
crops
dried herbs
farming
Federal Work Programs
Fleetwood
Franklin Roosevelt
ginseng
Great Depression
Greer's Herb House
Herbert Hoover
herbs
Hibriten
Jane Efrird
railroad
work projects
Works Progress Administration
WPA
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1fbd66f7d563f355b9b46038529a8345.pdf
8abd80a56901f7962cea6994bab58322
PDF Text
Text
Ti1is is an interview with Hrs. Jennie Horton of Boone, North Carolina, done
for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Mabel L. Brooks.
Mrs. Horton: My name is Jennie Horton. I'm sixty-seven years old. I'm
retired. I used to cook, mostly I have always cooked. I worked pretty hard
in my younger days. I worked in Monroe, 11ichigan seven, six years, I left
there and worked in Pennsylvania up in the Pokenoles for four years. And
when I worked up there, I was working with my son-in-law, and that work was a
little too heavy for me so I quit and got a lighter job at a camp where they
have young people come in on week-ends. And I stayed there six years . And
then it was time for me to retire, so I came back home. This i s my home,
Boone. I signed up for social security. Then I worked four years down here
at the hospital, down here at Watauga, I got arthritis and that really threw
me, so I haven't worked anywhere in three years. I have two children, a boy
and a girl. My son is married and he lives here on 8 North Street. My daughter
lives in Strausburg, Pennsylvania.
Interviewer: Could you tell us about life during the depression and how you
made a living?
Mrs. Horton: My children were small then. I worked at a hotel. I didn't
make very much, we didn't make very much in those days. We got b~, but it
was close and very hard. I ah1ays had a garden. I had a pretty good little
garden, and I would can different things that I could get, and what I could
buy.
Interviewer: What food was most scarce at the time? Like now we are having
a beef shortage . What was in shortage during the depression?
Mrs. Horton: Just about everything. I tell you, seems like I don't recall,
any beef being in shortage, just meat. Just pork meat. Sugar, it was rationed
also flour and coffee, and stuff like that, just about everything. You could
only get a certain amount.
Interviewer:
Was it per week or per month or what?
Mrs. Horton: Per week. And I sold, let me see what else . I believe thats
all. Most of the food was rationed. They ~ allowed you to have so much a week.
I don't remember about the beef, I guess it was too, but ... you had such a
little money to buy things like that. If ~e could really do without it we
would.
Interviewer: My grandparents said they couldn't get much meat so they had
to eat horse meat on the table.
Mrs. Tiorton: Oh there wasn't anything like that here. Two, Three months
ago, I heard some say they have been eating horse meat. And you know I said
if it ever comes here t6 North Carolina especially here in Boone, I'll never
but it. I'll never eat it. Cause if you read the Bible you aren't going to
find where Christ ate horse meat, nor any of his Disciples, why should I eat
it? When it gets down that low, I just hope the Lord will take me on out
of the way . Horse meat? Uggh.
�2
Interviewer : Well Y.rs . Horton could you tell us about getting medicines and
visiting the doctors and things?
Mrs . Horton: Well it seems like it wasn ' t too hard to get a doctor. Seems like there weren't as many prescriptions filled. They didn't write you prescriptions
as quickly as they do now for medication . But mostly, if you weren't too
awfullu sick, just with a cold and had to have something like that , the doctor
generally gave you a medication, something you didn't do yourself.
Interviewer :
Were home remedies more of usage then?
Mrs. Horton:
Yeah, home remedies were pretty useful then.
" ~
Interviewer : What do you think works best, home remedies, or that you recieve
from the doctors?
Mrs. Eorton : I don't know. Sometimes that old time stuff is pretty good,
yes it is. It really is. Of course the doctors make light of it and all .
I have heard in my younger days where people would have pneumonia fever and
they ' d make onion polysis and put on the patient, and give them some kind of
tea, and it would break up the fever. If you put onion polysis on you, on
somebody now, I guess the doctor would throw you out of the house .
Interviewer:
You said you had a garden before, what kind of tools did you use?
Mrs . Horton: I had hoes, shovels, madigans, what I got now . I raked in the
garden last year . This summer I had a pretty good garden, but last year, I
didn't do any good. I was on crutches with my knees. I had arthritis so
bad and I was on crutches just about all summer last summer, but by the help
of the Lord, I got better and I put out a pretty good little garden this year .
I think I raised enough potatoes to do me all winter. And I raised corn and
beans . I canned corn and I canned beans.. I canned tomatoes , and I canned
apples and I made apple jelly .
When your mother was
Interviewer: Sounds like you ' re pretty well stocked.
raising her garden, can you remember any methods that she used that you don ' t
have to use today?
Mrs . Horton: No, I don't . I was born and raised on a farm. My father farmed
and there ' s not much difference now . The only difference in it now and back
then, people would have to use a horse and a plow . But now they can take one
of these little tillers and go through and maybe dig a few weeds out and you've
got your stuff made. But then they would have to have a horse and a small plow,
a one horse plow and plow through the rows . But all of thats done away with now.
You just get you a tiller and go on through and plow up your garden without
horses . And we had cows, we had chickens, my daddy raised p.igs, raised hogs
and we got along pretty good . Money wasn't plentiful, but we did have plenty
to eat.
Interviewer: Would you think that your family got along better than some of the
other families durinE this time?
�3
Mrs . Horton: Well yes I do because now-a-days my grandchildren, they have
two and three pairs of shoes, which we didn ' t get but one pair of shoes a
year when we were growing up . Now my little grand- daughter, she ' s got two
or three pairs of shoes . Hy nieces little daughter ' s has two or three pair .
I say if you all had to survive what I came through, I say you'll be thankful
that you have just what you have . Ilut I don ' t know, they still aren't satisfied .
Interviewer:
I guess people had to make a lot of their clothes and things?
Mrs . Horton :
Yes, way
Interviewer :
Did you ever have to go to the grits mill?
back then they did .
Mrs . Horton: Yes, I went to the mill. We ' d take wheat to the ~ill and get it
ground into flour . And we ' d take corn and get it ground into meal . I couldn't
carry but a peck or about a half a bushel. It wasn't too far from where we
lived, where we took our meal to. But the mill we took our flour to was about
four miles from our home .
Interviewer:
Did you have to walk?
Mrs. Horton : Yes pretty much, and that ' s a long way. But generally, my
father would always get our neighbors. they had a team of ~ules and when they
would go to the mill, they would all go in and go together . That made it a
little easier.
Interviewer : Do you know any little funny acts or incidents that happened
on the way to the mill?
Mrs . Horton:
No, I don ' t know any.
Interviewer :
What about the educational situation?
Mrs. Horton : Among the children, there . weren ' t but two of us that went to
school. There weren't but three of us . We had to walk three miles going
and three miles coming. Six miles a day to school .
Interviewer:
Were the whites and blacks going to school together7
Mrs. Horton:
No.
Interviewer :
this time?
Was there a lot of tension between the whites and blacks during
No way .
~
.
Mrs . Horton: Not a bit . I ' ve been here in Boone . I ' ve been living in Boone .
I was born and raised in Tennessee, but ~y mother and father moved here about
forty or fifty years ago and I never heard anything about segregation till I
came to Boone, North Carolina , that's the truth . We didn't go to school together
nor to church together, but sometimes the whites would come and visit our church
and they would invite the Colored to come and visit their church . I didn ' t
�4
know anything about it until I came to North Carolina and seems like it got
worse and worse and worse so I hope it •·s better now. Some places it will
never be any better. That's right.
Interviewer: Do you think it was a good thing for the schools to intergrate
like they have?
Mrs. Horton: Yes I do. Especially in a little place like this. This is no
city, you know that, but the Colored weren't situated to teach some of the
children. Especially when they got to high school, at first they didn't
have any high school teachers here and they would have to send their children
off. My son and my daughter, when they finished elementary school here, I
had to send them to Kings Mountain, North Carolina. I sent them to Kings
Mountain, North Carolina to finish high school. And then, as I remember,
some of the children went to Tennessee and some went to Greensboro these that
wanted to. You know, so many will and so many won't. And so many can and so
many can't. But I am thankful to the Lord that everything has turned out like
it has. Everything seems to be a whole lot different from what it used to be
when I was ~ growing up. If they'd get a job, people would get more money than
they did back when I was a kid. I have worked for as little as three and four
dollars a week and you know that isn't anv money. Now just let somebody ask
you to work for them for three or four dollars a week. Some people would get
rather violent. You'd better believe it. Yes sir.
Interviewer: When you were going to school, how were the schools set up, did
they have everybody in one room?
Mrs. Horton: No, we had two rooms. I got as far as the sixth grade. I went
about two of three weeks in the sixth grade and I had to quit. My father and
my mother weren't too well and my brother, there weren't but four of us, and
three girls and my brother. He lives out on up above us. That little white
house that sits down there, he lives up above there in a yellow house. He
married and we had to be the girls and the boys too so we just quit going to
school. Stay at home and help with the house work.
Interviewer:
Did
peop ~ e
tend to marry younger back then they do now?
Mrs. Horton: No I don't think so. I don't think they did. It don't seem to
me like they did. They jump up and marry, I wouldn't be surprised if some
little ten, twelve year old children don't get married, it wouldn't surprise
me a bit. They didn't marry as young, as early as the young people do this
day and time.
Interviewer: Would you say there was a difference in the races getting married?
The whites tend to marry younf.er than the blacks?
Mrs. Horton: Well I don't know, I don't knm» how old they would be, but seems
that they'd be pretty old when they would get married, no older than eighteen
or nineteen. But now they marry younger than that don't they? Some of them
do.
�5
Well Mrs. Horton, I see that you have company coming and I won't hold you any
longer. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Brooks, Mabel L.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Horton, Jenny
Interview Date
6/17/1974
Location
The location of the interview.
Boone, NC
Number of pages
5 pages
Date digitized
9/16/2014
File size
3.11MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
acacad4985e3489eaecff5dca3a621e2
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape288_JennyHorton_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jenny Horton [June 17, 1984]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brooks, Mabel L.
Horton, Jenny
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County
Horton, Jenny
Description
An account of the resource
Jenny Horton, a black woman living in Boone, talks about working as a cook most of her life. She worked in a hospital for a few years, but had to stop after she developed arthritis. She talks about the rationing of sugar, flour, meat, coffee, and other foods during the Depression and the different views on medicine people used to have. People were much more likely to use home remedies than go to the doctor. She also explains there was "a lot of tension between whites and blacks."
Boone
farming
gardem
garden
Great Depression
grits mill
home remedies
Jenny Horton
Michigan
Monroe
North Carolina
Pennyslvania
Poconos
segregation
Watauga Hospital
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Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, Tape 79
Interviewee: Ted Potter
Interviewer: Karalyn Shelton
Date: 12 June 1973
Transcriber: J. McTaggart
Karalyn Shelton: This is an interview with Mr. Ted Potter for the Appalachian Oral History Project by
Karalyn Shelton at Mr. Potter's home on June 12th, 1973. Okay, where were you born, Mr. Potter?
Ted Potter: I was born up, back up there on the mountain.
KS: In this area?
TP: Yes.
KS: Okay. What year were you born in?
TP: 1908.
KS: Okay. Uh, do you know Tamarack got its name?
TP: Mm no. I don't know unless they got it from the Tamaracks and [inaudible].
KS: Okay, well um has anything happened in this community that you can think of that really changed it?
TP: It's changed a lot. They made that road. Roads are getting better.
KS: They're better now.
TP: Yeah.
KS: How did they used to be?
Female voice: [Inaudible].
TP: [Inaudible] rocky...
KS: Okay, do you know who some of the first settlers were in this area?
TP: The first settlers?
KS: Mm hm, what families?
TP: I reckon it was the Mains and Potters.
KS: Okay, what were your parents' names?
TP: Johno Potter and Lily Potter.
�KS: Where were they born?
TP: Well, I think Mama was born right here in the barn, wasn't she...
FV: I think so.
KS: Well, where was your daddy born, just in this area?
TP: Yeah, he must've been born...l wanna say, I believe he was born back up on the mountain.
KS: Well, how many children were there in your family?
TP: In my family?
KS: Yeah.
TP: Eleven.
KS: Eleven?
TP: Yeah.
KS: Well, what are their names and ages?
TP: [Inaudible]
Female voice: [Inaudible]
KS: Who came after Bert?
TP: [Inaudible] and then Lady Bell and then Boyd...
KS: You wanna read 'em to me?
Female voice: No, I can't see [inaudible]...
KS: Well after Lady Bell was Boyd then Nel and then Rosimer (?) then Ted Ward, Bonnie Lou and born in
1908, and then Ms. [inaudible] was born in 1910, okay. Well, what about your family, your mama and
daddy's family. How many young'uns was in that family?
TP: Five of us.
KS: What were all their names?
TP: Well, uh there's...
Female voice: There's Ted and Ennie (?) and Nan (?) and Charles and Rob of the [inaudible] first family.
Wasn't there?
TP: Yeah and then there's seven in the last one.
�FV: Well, we'll have to count 'em up I don't know how many. There's uh Fred and Howard and Dane and
Velma and Juanita, they call her Tu, who's the other ones?
TP:Johno.
FV: Yeah, Johno. That's six.
TP: And Bart.
FV: Bart's seven.
KS: That's a big family.
FV: I believe that's all of them. Then they've got three, three of the...one of the first one's to join
[inaudible]...
TP: Two, two's dead...
FV: Two's dead.
KS: Well, what did your daddy do for a living?
TP: Well, he uh carried the mail and...
FV: I give up [inaudible].
KS: He logged?
TP: Yeah, yeah, he logged for years when he wasn't carrying the mail.
KS: Well, how did he carry the mail?
TP: Well, he walked to the post office down here at the forks of the road up on the mountain and then
he'd ride from [inaudible] to uh [inaudible].
KS: So he walked and rode the horse?
TP: Yes,
KS: Well, um how much land did your daddy have?
TP: I believe this whole town. Well, when he was dying he was still in charge of 150 acres [inaudible].
KS: Well, did you move a lot or did you just stay around in this area?
TP: [Inaudible] You mean did he move or?
KS: No, you.
TP: No, I've lived right here all my life ever since I've been married and that's forty...43 years?
�FV: I don't know! [Inaudible]
TP: [Chuckles]
KS: But you've lived in this house right here for all them many years?
TP: No; we lived in an old house.
FV: No, we lived in a little ol' box house up here in [inaudible].
TP: I guess I moved well about 20 feet still from [inaudible].
KS: Mm hm, well where did you go to school?
TP: Down here at [inaudible] down by the post office.
KS: How many years did you get to go to school?
TP: Well, I didn't, well I [inaudible] third grade. I [inaudible] didn't go much.
KS: How many months did they have school out of the year?
FV: Six back then I think!
TP: Yeah, they had [inaudible] six months out of the year.
KS: Well, what were the teachers like?
TP: Well, there's uh Charlotte Thompson was my teacher [chuckles] and Ms. Rainy. She's a middle age
woman, wasn't she?
FV:Yeah.
TP: Uh, Louise Sutherland, you remember her don't you? How she looked?
KS: No, I don't believe I can.
TP: She teach school down here. [Inaudible] them [inaudible] that lives over there in the Cove Creek
they teach down here. [Inaudible] Weinberger he teach down here.
KS: Well, what were they like, were they strict with you?
TP: Yeah, they [inaudible] up on you. Well, they'd take kids back down uh make them [inaudible]. I
reckon they're meaner now. They're now [inaudible]. They had to be rough on us [chuckles].
KS: How were they meaner?
TP: [Inaudible] just [inaudible] right there. You know where [inaudible] and stuff like that. They wasn't
uh they hit, when I [inaudible] beat up on you and I reckon it'd make you a lot meaner.
�KS: Oh well, what kind of punishment did they have?
TP: Well, they'd [inaudible] roots with a [inaudible].
KS: Well, what subjects did they teach?
TP: You mean in Boone?
KS: Uh huh.
TP: Here at [inaudible] I don't know what it really, I forget really what was the highest grades. Back then
they had these old timey primers. You know when you first start middle school.
KS: Well, did you just have a primer in the first grade?
TP: Yeah, that's all we had just...
FV: They had ABC's and [inaudible].
TP: Yeah, you just had back in them days there wasn't like [inaudible]. [Inaudible] uh saw mills, logs and
timber.
KS: Mm hm.
TP: And you had to do all the work [inaudible] with horse and mules and steers and oxens would haul
'em.
KS: Well, did your whole family get to go to school?
TP: Yes, they all went a little, I reckon.
KS: Have the schools changed much over the years?
TP: Oh yeah, they've changed a lot.
KS: How have they changed?
TP: Well, you see they put this transportation on and they cut these schools out of the settlements. And
put the buses on them see takes uh the kids there.
KS: What was the first job you ever had?
TP: Well I, I've logged. I've logged here. It wasn't too long. [Inaudible] with a hoe was. Back then you
didn't have no work [inaudible].
KS: Well, what else did they have besides the hoe?
�TP: Maybe some old turning [inaudible] you turn the ground and then I don't reckon there's any
[inaudible] back in them days. One of these old wooden [inaudible] and most of 'em just go over and cut
'em [inaudible] brash, stone brash [inaudible].
KS: Oh, well did you do any...
FV: [Inaudible] just a dollar a day and sometimes it was like 90 cents.
TP: Yeah, now-a-day we [inaudible]. Way back years, before they had [inaudible] it was about 50 cents a
day.
KS: Well, did you have any other jobs besides logging?
TP: Not before I was married.
KS: Well, what else have you done?
TP: I've carried the mail and was carrying the mail when I was married. Then they build some bigger
roads to go on.
FV: You worked over yonder at [inaudible].
TP: I drove on that trade road from Craigstate(?) line. I have to build a [inaudible] over there on that
road that goes through [inaudible].
KS: When was the hardest time you ever had getting a job?
TP: Well uh, to take on the time uh you could hardly get a job.
KS: When was this?
TP: I had to [inaudible] married and...
KS: Was this during the Depression?
TP: Yeah, yeah right in there, the Depression.
KS: Well, how did it affect you and your family?
TP: [Inaudible] uh had to dig lots of roots and skin cherry bark to get along.
KS: Well, did you raise your own food?
TP:Yeah.
KS: What did you raise?
TP: Corn and beans and meat.
�KS: What kind of meat?
TP: Hog meat, killed about two hogs every fall.
FV: Raised buckwheat and make pancakes.
TP: [Laughter]
FV: [Laughter]
KS: Well, did you raise any of these crops to sell?
TP: No, took about all of 'em back then [inaudible]. It wasn't like it is now. You what you made, you see
people went through the summer made their uh what you say your meat and veggies. You raised your
corn and had it to your mill grain or go to the mill every couple during the week.
KS: Well, where was this mill at?
TP: Uh well, there's some all right along up and [inaudible] had one up here. Fred Emerson he lives up
there; he had a mill up there [inaudible]. Earl Lynn he had mill there for years.
FV: [Inaudible] had one up there.
TP: Yeah, Frank Naylor had one up there.
KS: Well, can you remember anything about the banks during the Depression?
TP: Well, the banks?
KS:Mmhm.
TP: Yeah, they went bank, they claimed that they went broke or busted.
KS: Well, did you have any money in at that time?
TP: No [chuckles]. You couldn't have no money back them days.
KS: Uh huh, well, where were you working during the Depression?
TP: Well, I had to quit carrying the mail I just make a [inaudible] around on the farm. Make what we eat
just skinning cherry bark and haw bark and digging roots.
KS: How much money did you get for this cherry bark and roots and stuff?
TP: Well, I don't know it wasn't...cherry bark it wasn't over 2 cents, was it?
FV: No.
TP: And the haw bark it run up 6 maybe cents a pound, wasn't it?
�8
FV: [Inaudible] for 5 cents then it went up to 8 [inaudible].
KS: Well, back during the Depression it took a whole lot of cherry bark and stuff to get money didn't it?
TP: Yeah it just, you had work pretty steady at it. Like [inaudible] you had to work pretty steady at it to
uh get something to eat.
KS: Well, did any of your children have to leave home or anything during that time to get a job?
TP: No, no they wasn't big enough to.
KS: Oh, they wasn't?
TP: And we got a pretty well grown [inaudible] Bernice she took that polio.
KS: Well, um do you remember any programs like WPA or CCC?
TP: Yeah, when they first started that WPA I think we first went to work on [inaudible] work up and
down the roads. And they give a lot, give us an [inaudible] that store up there at Boone. We'd go up
there and get had to go up there and take that [inaudible] team. Me and [inaudible].
KS: So you worked on...
FV: [Inaudible] talking [inaudible].
TP: Nobody gives them...they had to [inaudible]. The store gave enough wheat for your work all week
and you had to take it to Boone up there and [inaudible] the store and take that...
KS: Well, did you work on the WPA?
TP:Yeah.
KS: Well, what all did you do?
TP: Well, I helped build that surge line or sewage in Boone up there on the State Farm. And then later I
worked in Blowing Rock a year or two, didn't I?
FV: Yeah.
TP: Walk up there to uh go over there into Wade [inaudible]. It's through the mountain and catch the
state truck there and ride it on into Blowing Rock.
KS: Well, can you remember the first car that came in here?
TP: Yeah.
KS: Well, uh who had it?
TP: Will Sutherland.
�KS: What kind was it?
TP: I think it's an old A-Model and cloth top.
KS: Well, what'd you think about it when you saw that?
TP: [Laughter] I don't know what I thought about it them days. Shoot. My memories just a little bit
[inaudible]. Down there right well when that old road come up through there then is right in front of
that old house I lived on where my grandpap lived. He drove it up there and turned it. An old two seater,
cloth top A-Model.
KS: Well, before that how did people get around?
TP: [Inaudible] buggies, hecks (?), wagons...
KS: What's a heck?
FV: Riding horse.
TP: [Laughter] Yeah, it's an old four wheel outfit with two seats on it made like a buggy. It had a bed on
it and had two seats on it.
KS: Well, uh what churches did they have around here then?
TP: Uh Baptist Church it set down here where this Baptist Church is. And then the Christian Church uh it
set down right down uh just about where Curtis [inaudible] store is.
KS: Well, where did most people go to church around here?
TP: Well, they split up like they're now, part of 'em go to the Baptist Church and part to the Christian
Church.
KS: Well, do you think the preachers have changed much over the years?
TP: Well, I don't know whether they have or not. They, I know one thing they've done they've back them
days they would walk and now-a-days they ride they've got the cars to ride in [chuckles].
KS: Where did they walk from?
TP: Well, you see they'd walk from or ride horses from wherever they lived, you see, to church.
KS: Well, did they ever spend the night with any of the members or anything?
TP: Yeah, back them days they would stay over. Well, uh most of would have a week's meat and they'd
spend a week with uh Christians one day and members of the church and they'd spend the nights.
KS: Well, how did the teachers do? Did they stay with students or did they have their homes around
here?
�10
TP: Uh, you see Earl Wineberger he lived back in yonder there and he had a big he had him a horse, a
grey horse and a black one. He'd ride one of the horses and ask [inaudible] or one of the boys to ride the
other one across the mountain. And I don't know, I forget how Charles Hompson got over here. I don't
know, seemed like he boarded. [Inaudible] but I have I can't remember where exactly—it seems like he
boarded in [inaudible].
KS: Well, did the Depression affect the schools in anyway?
TP: Yeah, that Depression is hard on everybody.
KS: Well, how did the schools change during that time?
TP: Well, they never changed too much they just keep dragging along you know just people trying to
send their young'uns. Once they got big enough they had to help work the fields, making corn, and stuff
like that.
KS: Who do you think was hit the hardest by the depression?
TP: Well, I don't know. See if the banks went broke like they claim they did then them fellers that had
decent money in 'em of course it hurt them. But [inaudible] to keep something to keep the poor man he
didn't have [inaudible].
KS: Well, back in the days when you was younger, did they have any bad men or outlaws or anything
around here?
TP: Yeah, they were here. [Inaudible] Potters they think he was bad and then they had a killing, well a lot
a killing. Several was killed down there. And they spread the [inaudible]. There were several killed down
there and they [inaudible].
KS: Were those people born here or did they just come into to this section?
TP: Wel,l part of 'em come in from Kentucky. 01' man Brooms(?) then [inaudible] then they come in, you
see.
KS: Well, who was the sheriff then?
TP: I 'bout forgot [coughs] who was the High Sheriff. The first one I remember was uh I believe his name
was Young, Sheriff Young they called him. His name was Young. And he had a daddy that Ed Horton, I
think was his daddy [inaudible]. They change so much, you see, and I think the time I just can't...
KS: Did any of 'em ever get killed?
TP: No, not at all. Officers never did get killed,
KS: Did Tamarack have a jail or anything?
TP: No, no, they take 'em out. When they arrest 'em, they take 'em to Boone's jail just like they do now.
�11
KS: What kind of buildings did they have, like post office and stuff like that?
TP: They just old building, store house just like the one on old [inaudible], store house [inaudible]. Of
course, some of 'em was bigger but just like uh it like [inaudible].
KS: Well, where was the country store around here?
TP: Down there at the fork in the road. Frank Miller owned a store there for years. And then uh after he
quit uh Curtis Potter took up the store down there.
KS: What all kinds of things did they carry in their store?
TP: Well, they carried dried goods and groceries and uh every now and then you'd buy you coffee. You'd
have to buy and the grain. Most of the time you'd have to parch it, grind it at [chuckles] the mill.
KS: Well, did anybody moonshine around here?
TP: Yeah, they [inaudible] moonshining and bootlegging went on back them days, back when I was a
boy.
[END OF SIDE ONE]
TP: ...with a you can cook then you had a six gallon barrel and a little beat boxes back then. They took a
bushel of meal there to the barrel and they put the malt and rye chalk. I've even put a gallon of rye chalk
in the barrel. It takes that about a week to go sour and work off and make the alcohol.
KS: Was it good?
TP: Yeah, just like the on his grain [inaudible] back them days once drain for the [inaudible]. See they,
see they don't know what to make out of it.
KS: Did anybody ever try to stop 'em from making moonshine?
TP: Yeah, the law they's report 'em in and the law they would come and search and hunt for 'em, see. If
they had to arrest a man, they'd have to [inaudible] back when I was a boy put him on a horse up behind
them and take him in [chuckles].
KS: Any revenuers ever come in?
TP: No, I don't reckon there wasn't no federal [inaudible] back then it was just the county officers that
there.
KS: Well, what did they do to you when they took you to Boone?
TP: Well, they was pretty rough on 'em. They fined 'em maybe they'd have to go to jail cells.
KS: How much did moonshine cost?
�12
TP: I believe you could buy you uh it was you could buy a [inaudible] for $10 a gallon.
KS: It was that expensive?
TP: Huh?
KS: It was that expensive?
TP: Yeah, they'd sell it to trade for $10 a gallon and where'd they take a [inaudible] then they'd have for
about $6 a gallon. And take it back into Tennessee in [inaudible]. I believe they put about six and four,
they put about four cans to a hemp sack, tow sack they called 'em, and they'd put one on each side of a
horse roll up on the horse and take it to Tennessee. Take it over night and they'd stay overnight over
there. And then there was a drunk and they come at it. They would get them two or three half gallon
cans and they [inaudible] in their saddle pockets and ride off with it.
KS: [Chuckles] Well, what did you do for amusement when you was a little boy?
TP: For what?
KS: For amusement, what did you play with?
TP: I forget. You see, back then there wasn't no toys to play with it was just, I forget. Little kids back
them days there wasn't much to play with [inaudible]. We had no toys like there is now.
KS: What was Christmas like?
TP: Well, they [car horn honks] there's some difference in it, not too much. There's, now-a-days people
they buy most of 'em buys their cakes and stuff. Back them days they'd [inaudible] and bake.
KS: Did you have Christmas trees?
TP: No, no Christmas tree [inaudible, chuckles].
KS: Didn't anybody have a Christmas tree?
TP: No, they didn't. Nobody had a Christmas tree.
KS: Did anybody believe in Santa Claus?
TP: Well maybe, some of the kids would. And back then they'd go around your neighbors and go around
and fix up some kind of old [inaudible] spaces maybe the night before Christmas. They just [inaudible]
candy, there wasn't no toys then [inaudible].
KS: How much did candy cost back then?
TP: I forget just one cost but it was way damn cheap I [inaudible]. You can get a right smart little pop for
a dime [inaudible] candy in buckets. Well, I guess it [inaudible] in buckets, wooden buckets, the bulk
candy was. The stick candy was in boxes like it is now I'd say. And there wasn't no uh well there way up,
�Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, N.C.
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3
way up that [inaudible] I don't reckon it was the later I got going [inaudible] bark candy, you know,
would break your teeth, it was just all loose candy.
KS: What kind of medicines did they use back then? TP: Well, I don't know. If anybody gets sick they just go, go to the doctor. And I don't know I reckon he
made his medicine.
KS: What kinds did he use?
TP: Huh?
KS: What kinds of medicines did he use?
TP: Well there, use quinine and you know stuff like that most the time. And I don't know what else he uh
made medicine out of.
KS: Well, what about home remedies? What kind of home remedies did they have?
TP: What?
KS: That your mama made up.
TP: Well, they make bone-sift (?) tea and there's some other kind of tea. See there wasn't no aspirins or
none of these pills like there is now. No aspirins...nothing like that.
KS: Can you remember any legends or tales or superstitions that people had back then that's maybe
been passed down to you?
TP: No.
KS: Did your grandfather ever tell you anything about the Civil War or your Papa?
TP: No, I never did hear any him talk too much about it [inaudible]...
[Children yelling in background]
TP: You see, if they wasn't [inaudible] ol' Grandpap he was [inaudible]. He was just uh...his daddy
[inaudible] and Granny's daddy [inaudible].
KS: Was there ever any Negro slaves around here that you heard about?
TP: Yeah, up here on the [inaudible] place used to be a family of Negros that lived up there.
KS: Were they slaves?
TP: No, no they lived up there just like any other family go and make their, made their living.
KS: Well, how did people like 'em?
�Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, N.C.
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_4
TP: Uh they liked 'em all right. They had a little good I reckon they would you know barter with 'em and
ask somebody if they talked to 'em. Yeah they's...! forget what the nigger man's name was but the lady
her name was Reena [inaudible]. [Note: this is the Red or Read family.] Most of 'ems buried up there
just to go up and touch [inaudible].
KS: Would people around here very superstitious back then?
TP: No, they wasn't superstitious.
KS: Was there anything you can think to tell me about the old days?
TP: No [chuckles], you forget a lot.
KS: Mm hm, would you like to live back there in them days, now?
TP: Well I don't know whether I would or not. It's...back them days nobody much tried to save, save any
money like they do now-a-days. Always looking at any [inaudible] to make their what they went up on,
you know, to raise a family.
KS: Well, thank you.
[END]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
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Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-27
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ted Potter, June 12, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Ted Potter was born in Tamarack, NC in 1908 and throughout his life was a logger, mail carrier, and farmer.
Mr. Potter recalls childhood memories of Christmas, moonshining, and the Great Depression. He discusses the schoolhouse experience from his childhood as well as farming during the Great Depression.
Creator
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Shelton, Karalyn
Potter, Ted
Source
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<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
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6/12/1973
Rights
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Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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14 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape79_TedPotter_1973_06_12M001
Spatial Coverage
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Todd, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Potter, Ted--Interviews
Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Tamarack
Farm life--North Carolina--Tamarack--20th century
Tamarack (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Boone
CCC
Civilian Conservation Corps
farming
Great Depression
moonshining
North Carolina
schoolhouse
Tamarack
Ted Potter
Works Progress Administration
WPA
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7955776b936911d510652d48df4bdfc7.pdf
88316902588f76fe8dea2556b50fc363
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Text
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, Tape 74
Interviewees: Mr. and Mrs. Jim Greer
Interviewer: n/a
Date: 11 June 1973
Transcriber: J. McTaggart
Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Jim Greer for the Appalachian Oral History Project in
Triplett on June 11th, 1973. Okay, first I'd like to have your names and ages, please.
Jim Greer: Mine's James Calvin Greer and I'll be 65 years old on the fourth day of September.
I: Oh okay, what about you, Mrs. Greer?
Vera Greer: Um mines Vera Greer and I'll I was 61 the first day of May.
I: Oh and where were you born?
JG: I was born around here at the community center.
I: Wereya?
JG: Yeah, just around the road there.
VG: Yup right at the community, yeah. And I was born in Caldwell County.
I: Have you lived around here all of your lives?
JG:No.
VG: No.
I: Where have you lived?
JG: I lived in [inaudible] state gone for four years before I come back. I lived in Caldwell County, Wilkes
County.
VG: Who's that? I hear another car.
JG: I don't see it. Some folks bought that place up here.
I: Why did you move from here?
JG: Well, my mother moved to Wilkes County to my sister's and my daddy he left when I was four years
old. Mama had to keep me and my sister up 'til I got big enough to work. And I had to help her 'til I got
grown. We left here when I was about nine years old and went on up ahead the creek where Ralph
Greene lives now; got roots and herbs and gathered barks and stuff to get our groceries and clothes
with. Mama made all my clothes she just bought the cloth and made it. And uh you couldn't get no work
�nowhere; there was no work to do. And I wasn't big enough to work and mama she'd wash around here
on [inaudible] branch all day for 50 cents. [Inaudible] not too big a washing for 50 cents.
I: How would she wash 'em?
JG: With her hands and washboard, paddle board. Stand on big ol' banks and she had the paddle and
she'd beat the dirt out with the paddle. It was rough going, I'll tell you.
I: Were there just you and your sister in your family?
JG: Yeah at that time, the other had three.
VG: She was married twice [inaudible] the first time.
JG: She was married twice, my mother but the other two was married and gone. Last, my daddy was
being an [inaudible] sister.
I: Is she older or younger?
JG: She's younger than I am. Daddy [inaudible].
I: What was your father's occupation?
JG: Well, he worked for people, dug ditch and anything you could get do.
VG: All of these cleared fields on top of the mountain up here he cleared them.
JG: On top of the mountain up here, he cleared them. When you first go out up here them fields out
there when you first go out old man Tom Greer's mail [inaudible] on top of his up there. All them fields
my daddy cleared back there.
I: Well, how did he do it?
JG: Ax, chopped 'em. I've seen him cut trees down four foot through with an ax, chop 'em down.
I: How long would it take him?
JG: Well, it'd take him three or four hours.
I: And how much would he make?
JG: Well, he got when he did get anything it was 33 and 1/3 cents a day was all he got out of his work.
Killed himself at work and people living off his labor right now, enjoying it.
I: Did your mother work or was she just around the house?
JG: She worked around the house and whatever she'd get to do for people, haul corn and stuff like that.
Wash and things like that; we'd walk way up here to the creek, three miles down here [inaudible] the
branch and do a little washing.
�I: She would just do the neighborhood's washing?
JG: Yeah, mm hm ol' lady [inaudible] and uh Minnie Hayes' mother, yeah. She'd come on out of there
and work all day and get by the time we had a cow, she'd take it up and fodder. You know, top fodder of
corn. She'd give it about five or six shucks of top for a day's work. And she done carry them out from
around there [inaudible] Creek here in about three miles. And I'd come and meet her in the evening and
take part of the load off of her and carry what I could. I was little I couldn't do much, 'bout five or six
years old something like that. And me and her would get out in the woods and gather herbs and roots
carry it little up here to [inaudible]. [Inaudible] that big brick house up there on the right of the road
there used to be a big ol' store right there where that there cloth place is now. And old man [inaudible]
McNee run a big store there and we'd carry our herbs up there right up there mountain 'bout I guess
we'd go three miles. And the mountain we'd climb all the way 'till we got on top.
I: So you would sell your roots and herbs and things?
JG: Yes, maybe get up there and maybe have a dollar's worth with all we can carry.
I: Mm.
JG: Some of 'em were a cent a pound; some were a cent and a half some two cent, three cents. You
couldn't get nothing for more than that. I've had hard all my life and the highest I ever made a working
was the furniture factory [inaudible] 36 hours. I worked all my life, raised my family, worked for my
mother and sister 'till I was 21 years old. I helped on that highway that goes down the mountain to
Wilkesboro; I helped build that bridge from the bottom to the top.
I: Really?
JG: Yeah, see it's about four miles to do that, no way around it [clears throat].
I: Goodness, what do you do now, what kind of work?
JG: Nothin' I've been disabled for about 16,17 years.
I: Oh.
JG: My [inaudible] to the heart [inaudible] won't let me. He tell me last year not even to put out a
garden. The digging might have a stroke or something.
I: Mm, did you have a garden when you were little and growing up with your family?
JG: Yeah, me and mama gardened every year and raked. You went through the houses sits up here and
you start up the mountain and you leave this old house down here at the foot with the rock crusher. The
two little houses sits on the right on the holler. Now this field right here above the road me and mama
made our bread on that hill there.
[Background noises]
�I: Made what?
JG: Made our corn bread when I was a little boy. We had corn all over that hill. We had a third of it for
raising. We dug holes and plant the corn with a hoe then dug it out and hoed it when it come up, made
our corn up on that steep hill. It's straight up and down now.
I: Goodness, I don't see how you could hoe like that.
JG: You couldn't hardly stand up on it. You'd slide down and fall; we worked it 'til we got our corn
worked out. We made corn out of it two or three years on that hill. It's growed up now they've been
timber cut off it since me and mom worked corn on it.
I: What other kind of crops did you raise?
JG: Well, just beans and cucumbers and maters, Irish potatoes stuff like that.
I: Did you have any livestock or animals?
JG: No, well we generally kept cow most of the time. Dm, I've eaten boiled Irish potatoes for months at
a time for bread. We didn't have no bread and we didn't have no bread to eat. We'd boil Irish potatoes
and eat them for bread and butter. That's what we had to eat. You tell people that this day and time
they wouldn't believe it but it's so.
I: Hm I guess you were glad to get that though.
JG: Oh Lord yeah, I was glad to get it. A lot of times we didn't have potatoes. And I've eaten water gravy
a-many a-times just made out of flour and water and a little grease, you know. Maybe ol' strong meat
skins or something fry the grease out of 'em and make cream gravy. [I'd] eat that many a mornin' for
breakfast.
I: Hm.
JG: Mama made all my clothes. Here, here maybe I'll show you here. I've got a picture if I can find it
when I was a little boy. Where is that picture?
VG: There's one right up here. Yes sonny, they're right up here where I hang it!
JG: No, not mine!
VG: Yes! You're too!
JG: Did I put it up here?
VG: [Inaudible] I know you did!
JG: I'll show you this so you know I'm telling the truth. There it is. That's me and my mother there.
I: Aw.
�JG: I was 21 years old when that was took down at far end of that high bridge I was telling you about.
I: That's a good picture.
JG: There's another one just like it. [Inaudible] my other picture.
VG: Well, I don't know what you've done with it, honey!
JG: Let me see.
I: Your mother made these clothes?
JG: Mm hm, made my clothes.
VG: No, not them. She's talking about the little picture that he had. I don't know what he's done with it.
JG: Here it is! Here it is! I'll show you. I knew I had this.
VG: Damn, I thought that was ones he had...that is him and his mother.
I: You were 21 here?
VG: Yeah.
JG: Mm hm.
I: That's a good picture.
VG: Now, right there's where...
JG: That's where [inaudible] year old when that's took. You see, the homemade overalls and the shirt.
You see the buttons on it. Now that pictures way old, it's about 60 years old I guess maybe more.
I: Oh.
JG: It was took when the old picture was crackled up you know and you couldn't get the crackles out of
it.
VG: Took it from an old picture you know.
JG: A boyfriend of mine had a creek up there in little Triplett and his grandfather's back here behind. I
tried to take 'em both off but didn't get 'em both.
I: Who took these pictures?
JG: [Inaudible] Greene took them way back when [inaudible].
VG: She lives at uh...
JG: Spruce Pine.
�VG: Spruce Pine!
JG: She's dead now. How come you get that now she's around at Minnie Hayes's and uh asked her and
she didn't have one of my old pictures when I was a little boy. And she said yeah, she did she took it with
a little bitty Kodak just made little bitty pictures about 2 by or 2 by 3 or something. And uh she kept it all
this time and I asked her if she'd let me have the picture. She said when I'm dead, says you can have it. I
says well I might die before you go [chuckles]. So she died and her daughter had some made, some
smalls made and sent me two of 'em and I took them and had 'em enlarged like that so they could be a
little bigger.
I: Aw, that's a good picture.
JG: I was about nine years old when that was took.
I: Aw, I bet you're glad to get that.
JG: Oh yeah, I wouldn't take nothirt' for it.
I: Goodness.
JG: I wouldn't.
I: Mm.
JG: I had on a little black hat you see it? You can see it.
VG: That was up here on [inaudible].
I: How long would it take your mother to make a pair of overalls like that?
JG: It would take a month.
I: Did she have an old sewing machine or would she make 'em by hand?
JG: No, she made 'em by hand.
I: Oh and she, where would she buy her cloth?
JG: Go to Eller McNee's (?) store on top of the mountain.
I: Oh yeah, do you know how much it would be back then, the cloth?
JG: Well, it run sometimes 10,15 cents a yard according to what...
VG: Well, you can't put the [inaudible]. [Inaudible] he had surgery on his back twice, got hurt at the
shop. He dropped his [inaudible].
I: Did your mother make her clothes too?
�JG: Mm hm, you had to make your clothes then couldn't go there was nowhere to buy 'em.
l:Hm.
JG: She make 'em [inaudible]. I stayed barefooted Christmas. I never got no shoes 'til Christmas then got
these ol' brogan shoes, ol' yellow shoes with brass rivets in 'em here and brass toes on 'em 'cause if
you're...hard as a rock you couldn't be in 'em, skin your feet all over. You'd have sores all over your feet
and your ankles.
I: Goodness.
JG: It was rough going, I'll tell you.
I: How far did you have to walk to school?
JG: Oh, it's about three miles on the way up there to Howard's Creek where Ralph Greene lives, left at
the rock crusher, and right on up the creek as far as you can go.
I: Oh, really?
JG: Mm hm.
I: How much schooling did you have?
JG: Well, I went to school to the fourth grade but I never did learn nothin'. The [inaudible] didn't have no
dad either I'd look after him. These Tripletts down here all of 'em have a big head and queers(?). They
beat me half to death at school and do things at school to get the teachers to beat me. And uh I couldn't
help it 'cause they'd just double up on me three or four get on me at a time and beat me half to death
'till I got big enough to take 'em apart. I beat two of 'em nearly to death after I got up big enough. And I
broke them and the rest of 'em ain't bother me anymore.
I: They've learned their lesson [chuckles].
VG: They broke once [inaudible].
JG: So uh I was [inaudible] off the road by all the young'uns up them days when I was growing up.
Everybody had well... I was the same about the same as orphans, you know. My daddy's gone, my mama
had to work all the time she couldn't be with me all the time. I wasn't mean; I didn't do nothin' to
nobody. And Stewart Shimens(?) around here can tell you all about my life. He knows everything about
it, knows how people treated me, all these old people around here. And I was treated like a dog, what
you might say all my life. I have been and since I've been married, same thing. People took off me and
beat off of me and you know the same three men got [inaudible].
I: Mm, why do you think they treated you like that?
JG: Well, just 'cause they could get something I had, you know, might [inaudible] borrow it and never
pay it back. Things like that. I've been too easy with people, let 'em go. I ain't doing it anymore, I can't.
�VG: We got a son-in-law that...
JG: Owes me a thousand dollars right now.
VG: Just about a thousand dollars in money now. And we will not I bet you we never as long as live see
every dime of it. They done, you seen that car sitting out here when you was here before. That blue car
that's pushed off down there and I told you that's my son-in-law's. Well, that's the one bless your heart
and they come and got it Saturday.
I: They did?
VG: He told us that his daddy borrowed the money for him and paid cash for that car. And honey, it was
through the American Credit right up here.
JG: He borrowed the money from American Credit.
VG: And went back and borrowed $75 on it besides.
JG: And he's not gonna pay for but he come and got it [inaudible].
VG: But you can tell her to get back on you how you used to walk ten miles a day and work.
JG: Yeah, I walked ten miles a day and worked ten hours and back home, after I go back home by
moonshine.
I: To moonshine?
JG: By moonshine.
I: Oh.
JG: In the woods, you know. Go to the woods, carry wood out, and cut it up-and stow in the woods. In
the summertime, work ten hours and walk five miles this way, I mean ten miles this way.
I: Mm and what were you doing when you were working?
VG: He worked in...
JG: I worked in the furniture shop [inaudible] furniture with my mom. I lived way down on Lenoir Creek...
VG: And then when we was in the Depression though we, we had a terrible time. One of our children
was born.
JG: Me and her during the Depression dug roots and gathered herbs to buy our clothes and groceries
and the baby's clothes.
VG: ...buy our first baby's clothes.
I: Really?
�VG: I went to the mountains this is as long as I could walk.
I: Goodness.
JG: ...crossing the mountains with me, we'd dig roots and gather herbs, sang and stuff.
I: 'Bout how much could you get for that?
JG: Well, it was cheap.
VG: It was cheap then. It wasn't much...
JG: You couldn't get over five cents a pound now for what we had.
VG: No.
JG: And I had to carry it three miles down [inaudible] in the summer. Down the mountain all the way and
carry it two sacks at a time on my back.
I: Was it very heavy?
JG: Pretty heavy, yeah. [Inaudible] I get there.
I: I bet it did [chuckles]. How many children do ya'll have?
VG: We've had nine but two of 'ems dead.
JG: Seven living, six girls and one boy and got two boys dead.
I: You said you had a child during the Depression.
VG: Yes [both talking at once]. I had one good dress and one old ratty thing I'd put on 'till I washed my
good one.
JG: I didn't even have clothes to change in. I wore her overalls [inaudible] my marriage and she could
wash mine. And I dug the ditch and worked the hill and cut the wood for 50 cents a day and had to take
it to mill our flour and a piece of meat or something like that. We couldn't get a dime to [inaudible].
Nothin'...
I: So, uh did ya'll have like a farm or something during the Depression?
VG: No, we just lived in what they called a little sawmill shack. You know where they built shacks
through the mountains, you know, to work a sawmill. And Jim worked the sawmill some after our first
baby is born and then it got down to that Depression. And uh when the next baby come along, and I'd
saved her clothes. If I hadn't saved her clothes [inaudible] went naked 'cause we couldn't buy none.
JG: Two hours a day at the sawmill [inaudible] and saw carrying green lumber and [inaudible] out for 50
cents a day.
�10
I: Mm and was this every day?
JG: Everyday 50 cents a day. That's [inaudible]. You can tell these young people about what it was like
[inaudible].
I: I know it. I've heard too many people say the same thing.
JG: [Inaudible] I couldn't go through it again.
VG: We'd go to people's houses for the raced your own hogs and they'd give us meat skins to season
what little we had to season.
JG: Fry the grease out of it and season your potatoes and beans or something.
I: Oh would, uh were people friendlier during the Depression?
VG: Yeah! We had a few good friends not too many.
JG: The town built her uncle [inaudible].
VG: And then after my baby's born, my aunt give me clothes so I could wear her clothes after the baby.
I: Oh and your uncle what gave you the hog skins and stuff like that.
VG: No, it was another one.
JG: Yeah, he gave us some.
VG: Yeah, he gave us some but there was another one. What was his name?
JG: Dave Frasier gave us some.
VG: Yeah, yeah.
JG: [Inaudible]
VG: We sure had it rough, buddy. And he worked my doctor bill out at 80 cent a day.
JG: Paid half of it on the doctor bill...
VG: ...and half of it to get something to eat.
JG: I stayed away from Blowing Rock for a long time [inaudible].
I: And where was this?
JG & VG: Down in Wilkes County.
I: That's where ya'll were living during the Depression, in Wilkes County?
�11
VG: Yeah.
I: Did it affect many of your neighbors as far as food and things?
VG:Huh?
I: Did the Depression urn affect many neighbors as far as food and things?
VG: Oh yeah, just about everybody.
I: Did the people not have enough to eat?
VG: I don't know but we didn't.
JG: There was a lot of 'em didn't have enough to eat. We didn't make [inaudible]. I was eating, I was
telling you about walking ten miles and working at the furniture shop. I eat oatmeal for breakfast and
worked on it 'till 12 o'clock and maybe make a sandwich, a peanut butter sandwich at dinner time, cold
Cola and work on it 'till night and walk on home.
I: I don't see how you could stand it, could take it.
JG: Well, people couldn't stand it.
VG: People, people at this time now is much as uh we you know have now.
JG: The people...
VG: If it'd come now I don't believe could live.
I: No I don't think so.
JG: Well there'd be a many of 'em starve to death if the government didn't take care of 'em it wouldn't
work. You couldn't get people out here and work for 50 cents a day to save your life now. They wouldn't
do it but I had to do it or starve to death I didn't like the stuff.
I: Did you ever hear about any of the government projects during the Depression like the WPA?
JG: No, well yeah we did too. They give away stuff a lot at Wilkesboro. We never could get nothing of it.
VG: Yeah, we did. We got some blankets and things one time.
JG: One time, yeah one time. I'm talking about food and stuff we never did get that.
VG: We didn't get no food.
JG: And my brother in law, he's [inaudible]. He's got his own farm and he worked for the WPA. And I
signed up don't know 50 times I guess that the WPA and they never would give me a call to work.
I: Hm, I wonder why.
�12
JG: I don't know why they didn't but they didn't...
I: I thought they would let...
VG: I think they just had their picks...
JG: Yeah, just certain ones that would work three days and then the other ones would work three days.
And I finally [inaudible] to call Will and I didn't have any job at the shop. I finally got on a contractors job
up there building that highway to Morganton and Lenoir. I got on that and worked I get to work three
days...
VG: And off three days.
JG: ...and off three days. I think it was a dollar, a dollar and half a day [inaudible]. I worked on that till
they cut me off of it and I finally got me a job in the shop between...
VG: 27 cents an hour.
JG: 27 cents an hour.
I: What were you doing then?
JG: I was working shingling with working with [inaudible] hanging the shingles things like that. Just
anything about if you wanted to know, [inaudible] cut off saw, planters, sanders, two jointers, things like
that. 27 cents an hour and I worked there for nine years. Well for nearly nine years before I ever got a
raise.
VG: Halfway left 'till September we've been married uh, 44 years.
I: Really?
VG: We ain't ever been apart a day in our lives. I mean he's went off to work but what I mean you know
get mad and separate or something.
JG: And since then, people get married and they don't get along.
VG: We don't even quarrel now maybe one of us be a little nervous and might smack one off, you know.
I've got bad nerves. When I was in that wreck, I took I had the epilepse [epilepsy].
I: Oh, have you ever worked any jobs?
VG: Uh uh, nothing only when I was little, I dropped corn and beans and stuff like that for people. And I
take it and butter and milk and take it home to eat for all of us.
I: Yeah, how many were in your family?
JG: Bernie and James.
�13
VG: Yeah but honey, that was after mom married the next last time.
JG: Six of 'em the last time, Carl, Will, Lance, Marie, and Horace. That's six.
VG: Yeah but they wasn't born when I dropped corns.
JG: I know, well there was just three of you. You and James and Bernie.
VG: Yeah there was just three and we had a step dad and he was a terrible man to us. Lord, he'd beat us
for nothin' just beat us like beatin' a dog.
I: Hm, could your mother not do anything about it?
VG: No, she'd try to fight him but he could outdo her.
I: Did ya'll have a farm where you lived?
VG: Yeah.
I: Did you have to work on the farm?
VG: Yeah! He'd give us, if he couldn't find nothin' else for us to do, he'd give us about acre of land to
pick up rock of the bay and we better have that done when he come in or he'd whoop.
I: Why would you have to pick up the rock, where would you put the rocks?
VG:Take 'em off you know pull 'em off the land where was cleared you know. He'd just have us do that
'cause he couldn't think of nothin' else for us to do. And I'd have to get all the wood and carry all the
water.
I: Were you the oldest?
VG: Yeah, yeah I was the oldest.
I: Hm, do you remember...
VG: Pulling drag woods out, drag wood out of the mountains and I'd have to chop it and carry it in.
I: Do you remember any good times when you were little and growing up?
VG: It was a dire some place.
I: You were what?
VG: It was a dire some place. We went out to play, he whooped us.
I: Really?
�14
VG: Yeah! He let one girl, one of our girlfriends, come one time. Asked him if we could goto her house
and play and he told us yeah. We didn't know no better we ain't never went nowhere you know before.
And when we come back, he told us how long to stay, two hours. When we come back, he said you
march right to them woods and get a hickory.
I: Why?
VG: He whooped us for going!
I: Did he tell you you could go?
VG: Yes!
I: Goodness.
JG: He was mean, he was just an old drunk and [inaudible] 'em.
I: Oh, that's just awful.
JG: I'll tell you how we treated my daddy. You know, this white house on the bank down there as you go
out the first one right there. Up on that hill, well Will Willy live there now and he got my daddy to cut
wood for him one time when that hill was there. And my daddy was cutting wood and a log coming
through down hit his shin and [inaudible]. You know what that man done? My daddy went in the house
tied it up to keep it from bleeding. Come over here son and poured on his shin on that skin place and he
had a sore on his leg as long as you [inaudible].
VG: Eat it up! You know carbolic acid will eat you up!
l:Ew.
JG: [Inaudible] And he poured that on his leg and it skinned up like that on my daddy's leg 'til a man
could cure it up. And he had a sore on his leg when he died over there.
I: Goodness.
JG: If I had been big enough and got hold of that man, I would kill him. That's how they treated my
daddy. He worked, the people would work him and they wouldn't pay him for it. They'd say I'll pay you
next week or next day or two or something like that and that'd be the last of it; maybe workin' a week at
a time all he got was what we were eating.
l:Hm.
JG: You couldn't get no 33 and 1/3 cents a day you know what you get out of a day's work then for ten
hours a day. He dug a ditch for people, cut wood, cleared off lands, cut logs for people and roll 'em into
hollers, and burn 'em and everything else, clean off their land for 'em. All these big mountain fields on
top the mountain when you go out, he done the most of 'em.
�15
l:Hm.
JG: People treated him awfully dirty but there's another day coming...
I: Yeah.
JG: ...when they get their part and it hits you.
I: Why do you think they...
[END]
�
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
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Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
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1965-1989
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Wetmore, Dana
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2014-02-26
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Title
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Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Jim Greer, June 11, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
James Calvin Greer was born in Triplett, NC in 1908. Vera Greer was born in Caldwell County in 1913.
Mr. and Mrs. Greer both recall very hard childhoods and growing up in the Triplett area. Mr. Greer worked at the local sawmill during the Great Depression. They recall collecting herbs and bark to pay for groceries and clothes.
Creator
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Weaver, Karen
Greer, Jim and Vera
Source
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<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/11/1973
Rights
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Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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15 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape74_Mr&MrsJimGreer_1973_06_11M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Triplett, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Greer, James Calvin--Interviews
Greer, Vera--Interviews
Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Watauga
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
barks
Caldwell County
Great Depression
herbs
Jim Greer
North Carolina
roots
sawmill
sawmill community
sawmill shack
Triplett
Vera Greer
Wilkes County
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/918b1ffafa4a2a9fe248bbb995492337.pdf
de1b7557918f512ebb32acd029a18650
PDF Text
Text
AUH f Y-L
This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History
Program with Mr. C. K. Morris of Meat Camp, North .Carolina.
The interview is by Mike McNeely and today's date is
June 11, 1973.
Q. Alright, Mr. Norris, Let's start out with talking about
your, the farm you were born on. When and where were you
born?
A. Right up at that old house.
Q. What was the year you were born?
A. Eighteen and ninety-one.
Q. Okay.
Uh, ya...ya daddy was a farmer, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. How many brothers and sisters did you have?
A. I had three sisters and three brothers.
Q. Sounds like your daddy had a lot of help on that farm.
A. Well, right much.
Q. Let me get something here.
Uh, how big was the farm?
A. Uh...
Q. Acre wise...
A. Uh, you might say it's only about, about forty acres now,
till we added more to it.
Q. And how much of that forty acres was used for farming?
A. Well, I'll say about half of it.
�AOH # 71
Q.
What all did you grow?
A.
Crowed potatoes, corn,, cabbage, wheat, rye, buckwheat.
And we had our own fruit, had ? orchard with plenty of
apples. We kept cows, made our milk, made butter and
cheese. Kept chickens for eggs and for the market. That's
about all the farming.
Q.
How much of the vegetables and stuff that you grew, how much
of that was used for the market and how much for your own,
home grown use ?
A.
Well, it took right much to feed all them people. I'd say
about half, about half a that amount. And that, the surplus
was hauled to town. It was hauled to Lenoir, Hickory, and
Morganton. We bought our salt and flour and what groceries
we used then out of the store, we bought with surplus, and
paid on taxes. We h?d to have enough to pay the taxes. And
on this farm one time, the tax was only about $4, 00,
Q.
Was that with all the buildings and everything on it?
A.
Yeah, and now I pay a hundred or more. A lot of difference.
Q.
Did you have hogs on your farm?
A.
Yes, We raised our own meat, raised our hogs, raised a few calves
for the market. And there wasn't so many cattle in the county then,.
like there is now. Most every family had, oh, from three to six
cows. And they milked 'em-a big family used a lot of milk.
And they'd sell off the calf. A plump, good calf would bring
ten dollars,, ten dollars to twenty dollars, A cow would bring about
twenty-five. Mow ed, mowed the meadow with a mowing
siythe. You know what th$t is. Cradle it, cut the grain with a
cradle- you ever seen a grain cradle?
Q. I'm not sure. You got one up in your barn?
A".
There's one a hanging right out there in the back of that shed.
Q.
You shew it to me pfterwhile, and I'll get a picture of it.
I saw your cniltivstor, pnd you had & plow ?nd what else?
�A.
We had a lay-off plow and a cultivator. Where they cleared
the land - where they cleared , now they'd go in the woods and
clear , like that over there. 'That mountain, one time, was
in timber all over this bottom. Go in there, and cut that
timber and pile it and cut it, and saw it up, so they could roll
it in big piles and burn it. Burn the logs and the brush. And
if it was too bad, the first year they'd dig holes sndijilant their
corn and beans. Dig holes with a hoe. And by next year, thye'd
take - they used 9 lot of them, ole shovel plows. Just one plow like sort a like a. cultivator, you know, a lay - off plow. They used
them a lot in gauching up the land. They used mainly the hoe
in the steep land. A lot of land was used , farmed and never cultivated.
I mean they just dug it with a hoe. Stacked their hay, mowed with a scythe,
and stacked their hay out in the meadow. You've seen hay stacks, plenty
of them.
Q. There's not as m^ny now, though as there were.
A. No, no body stacks their hay anymore. Very few really. Back on Cove
Creek way, they.stack right much hay, back toward Mountain City.
Q. Did you let your hogs - I was reading somewhere that a lot of people let
their hogs run free back then.
A. Run their hogs, and their sheep and some cattle - run 'em out in the range. Turn
'em out in the spring and go and, go and get what was left in the fall. And
everybody had fences and some cattle just run out on the outside. They had
stocklaw then and everybody had a fence back when I was growing up. All
the fences were made out of rails. Made out a split rails, yonder lies
a pile right now.
Q. How was that meat from the cows and hogs that ran free around
wag -fotfesin the woods? Was it any good?
'
•w
^
A. Oh yeah. Well, they'd bring 'em in now, they drove - bring
•em in and put 'em in pens and feed 'em corn a while before
they killed 'env And they's a lot - now some of them,
they's sjpme run out and was killed just off of the mash.
Had lots of chestnuts and acorns, and them hogs would get
just as fat , and that was the best meat you ever tasted.
A lot of -'em noe, they'd bring their hogs in, they had 'em
marked, every man, you know, they'd get together. And every
man had a certain mark that he knowed his hogs. And then
when they brought 'em in, they'd sort 'em out. Get "em in
a pen, a lot somewhere, and every fella pick 'em out.
A lot of 'em'd go wild. Once in a while, they'd never get
'em. They'd be wild hogs out in the mountains.
�Q. When did ya'll have your - did you have an annual kill, or
you ju$t kill 'em at different times during the year of what?
A. Anytime, anytime, there wasn't no slaughter pens at that time
My neighbors'd go in and help each other kill hogs. Sometimes
they'd kill fifteen or twenty a day. A whole lot of hands go
in, keep water in big ole pots and barrels and fill a barrel.
And they'd kill their hogs and drag 'em in. I've helped kill
as high as twelve of fourteen in a day. Kill, maybe one man'
have two or three of half a dozen. Go in and dress his'n out
whatever he wanted to kill. A lot of times, they's killed
one or two at, a time. They didn't go in and butcher 'em all
day long lik;rthey do now. •-/• And I never treated 'em or never
really took care of 'em, just kill 'em and salt the meat in
big ole barrels. And where they'd stay, well I've seen old
buildings was good then like that one there and they's
just hanging a;; over up stairs.
Did they smoke a lot of it?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did they smoke it instead of salt it?
A. They had to salt it, It'd take salt - they had to let
it take the salt and then they'd hang it up and smoke it.
They salted it in them barrels and lets see, there's about
a month and a half to two months and then they'd hang it
up, and then they'd put that smoke under it.
Q. Did the smoke give it any flavor?
A. Oh yeah, that smoke flavor's real, well, you can get this
breakfast bacon that's got that smokeed flavor. It was
more of a smoked flavor then, when we smoked it in the ole
smoke houses than they did in this bacon you buy.
Q. That's sorta like getting charcoal broiled hamburgers now,
get the taste of it like that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Well, you didn't have refrigerators or freezers back then...
A. No, we didn't have no freezers, and we kept the milk and butter
in the , had the spring house. Built a house right up the
spring. The water run in, and they have a big ole
trough as long as that car that run that the water right from
the spring in there and they kept their milk and their, all of
their stuff that, they like to use a freezer now. All their
pickled beans and kraut and everything that stayed in that
water. And it was like that, it kept it cold. And they
kept their butter and they salted and canned a lot of their
meat. They canned that and salted as we do yet. And they
salted and tender loined and all that stuff"now, they put
in cans and it'll keep right on.
Q. How about your vegetables? You didn't keep them in your
spring house did ya?
�A. No, nothing much. We buried the cabbage, the potatoes
and rutabaga and all the root crops eventually we
.
And we buried the cabbage and they're burying a lot of times,
burying a lot of them cabbage and use 'em all winter and the
dig 'em up, and sometimes there'd be a whole big field of
'em. And in the winter, they'd haul 'em to market they didn't
need to use and make barrels of kraut. I've seen them ole
wooden barrels - the fifty gallon barrels of kraut. And they'd
haul it to market a lot of it to sell it, oh, in a pint or a
quart. Just measure it out. Used to haul it to Lenior,
and them niggers, you couldn't fight 'em off: of the wagon.
Q. How did you make kraut?
A. Well, ya have that - hack that cabbage up real fine, pack it
in a barrel, put salt on it. Put so much salt. And then they
weight it down, put a plank on the barrel, put a rock and then
they'd put weight on it. And it'd pickle that cabbage in
only a little while. It didn't take it long to pickle it.
And then you'd have kraut right on.
Q. Was that kraut better than what you get over at Watauga?
A. Two to one better! Way better. That old chopped
really good. Take a dish of that kraut on a cold
and put a little sugar and black pepper on it and
it raw. It's good cooked too. I love it raw and
It was really good.
kraut was
winter day
just eat
do yet.
Q. Do you remember any days like Christmas or Easter or your
birthday or anything? What was Christmas like back when you
were a child?
A. Well, we didn't have much Christmas. I gotta stick or two
of candy and an apple or two, and a orange once in a while.
We didn't have but way little Christmas. Most kids got a
few sticks of candy. Didn't have no toys. Very few toys
at that time.
Q. Did you have a Christmas tree?
A. Sometimes we'd have a little Christmas tree. Sometimes at
the closing of school, they'd have a big Christmas tree and
the kids would all getta, all getta a little package, a few
sticks of candy, orange, apple or two, and that's about it.
Baked ole molasses sweet bread for a cake. I love it now
better than anything you can buy.
Q. You ever make molasses yourself?
�A. Oh yeah, we made our own molasses.
Q. How do you do that?
A. Well you grow the cane and pull the fodder off of it. Go
in and top and pull the fodder off and run it through them
rollers and catch the juice. Run it through a cane mill.
You ever see a cane mill?
Q. I think so, yeah.
A. Two; big ole rollers, and you ground with a horse. Horse
pulled it. Big ole pole round and it just went round and
rounf. Stick that cane in and it squeezes juice out. And
they had a furnace and a big ole boiler sitting on it. And
they boiled that sown and made molasses. I've ground cane
a many a time till I'd just about freeze. And then the
kids'd come on and play on the cane stalks and have a good
time. Boiling molasses, ah, nearly every family back then
made their own molasses. Some of 'em made a hundred gallon
or two. But the average family didn't make but twenty or
forty gallon. And then they didn't have to have much sugar.
Sweetened a lot - and they made tree syrup.
Q. Maple syrup?
A. Maple syrup - maple sugar. I can remember my mother sweetening
her berries and fruits with the maple sugar. They'd have big
ole dishpans full of it and just go and shave off whatever
they wanted and put it in their fruit.
Q. Mr. Walter was telling about a guy that still does that,
when he makes pis molasses, he just boils it on down to sugar,
cakes it up, and goes and sells it to the stores.
A. Oh yeah, there's a few that still makes that tree sugar and
tree syrup.
Q. Did your mother use that much in her jellies when she was
making it?
A. Well,,1 don't know whether they used it much. They didn't
make much jelly at that time. I don't know whether they
used any in jelly or not. They could have, I guess. I
guess it would really be better flavor than the white sugar
now. I can remember when you could buy brown sugar. They got
it in big barrels. I've got some barrels now. Four hundred
pounds of brown sugar and you could buy it for $20.00, five
cents a pound. And the white sugar was a little bit higher.
And they weighed it out in, from a pound on up to whatever
you wanted. Dipped it out with' a scoop and put it in bags.
Q. Yeah, its already bagged up.
A. Yeah, it's up to four hundred pounds usually in a bag. And
a, and the first fertilizer that ever come to this county
come in barrels. Two hundred pounds in a barrel.
�Q. What did you use before fertilizer, before it came in the
barrels?
A. We didn't use it. We didn't have it. We just planted
without it.
Q. Did you use any, like cow manure or anything?
A. Yeah, we used what manure we had. We used manure, and the
earth growed the rest of it.
Q. How about the feed for the animals? Did you just feed them
some corn that you grew or did you go buy some of that or
grind it up...
A. Well, we ground into, I had it ground, some of 'em fed the
biggest part of it just whole. Feed your cattle whole. They
had some ground. They'd have the buckwheat and rye, they had
the small grains ground, but most the corn was just fed whole.
Wasn't no hammer mills. Just a flour mill and a corn mill
was all the mills there was then. There wasn't no thing as
a hammer mill. All water power. Back yonder all the mills
in this country was run by water. Big whole water wheels,
you've seen 'em.
Q. Like down at Mr. Winebarger's mill?
A. We take wagon loads of grain up there, of buckwheat, raised
buckwheat, and go and have it ground and then use a lot of
it for flour. And ole buckwheat cakes are good. And then
they haul it. They'd have that flour ground and put in ten,
twenty-five pound bags and haul it to Lenior and all down
south, Lenior, Morganton, Hickory, Statesville. And sell to
the stores. Swap it for wheat flour and we bought our salt.
We'd buy a hundred pounds of salt for sixty cents ($.60) then.
Q. Wow!
A. In Lenior, that's what it cost.
Q. Did you truck it down the mountain in wagons?
A. Oh yeah, there wasn't no trucks.
Done it all in wagons.
Q. How were the roads?
A. Muddy a lot of the time. Real muddy. Sometimes there'd be
a row of wagons as far as from here to the creek, right along
together. And they'd all camp out of the night, tie our
horses and cattle up and feed 'em. Lot of time we got to
make our bed on the ground under the wagon. After we'd get
a load off - after we'd get a load off the wagon, then we'd
have hay and stuff we'd fetch on our load for our produce,
you know, and then we'd sleep in the wagon. And it was fun
when the weather was good. I'd enjoy it now. But it was
rough going, when it was pouring rain or snowing.
Q. You had to go in the winter?
�A. Oh yeah. We'd go when it was cold weather. Oh, we had a lot
of apples then. Haul apples, potatoes, chestnuts, beans, shale
wheat, buckwheat flour, meat, butter, and stuffed hams - people
then sold a lot of hams. The farmers have more meat than they
could use, and they'd haul them and sell them to the stores.
And you didn't see much loaf, well, in this part of the country
they didn't. Very seldom did you see a loaf of bread in the
store. They didn't - well down in the bigger towns you could
get loaves of it some places. And you go in and you could buy
sausage and beef and
. We done our own cooking.
It was fun. Build a fire outside and cook potatoes and cabbage;
we didn't take time to cook beans. Fried taters and onions.
Tie our team up and feed 'em and while they were eating, we'd
get supper or breakfast. Fry eggs and meat. And hit was they was a lot of fun in it. Whole lot of hard work and
hardships too.
Q. Do you remember any incidences where a wagon didn't make it
all the way down? Where there any that ran off the road?
A. Well, not much. There's a woman or two got killed, run off the
road on a wagon, way down at Blowing Rock Mountain. And once
in awhile they'd be a team run away and tear up everything.
But not hardly ever hear tell of any. Once in awhile you
hear tell of a train running over a team and killing them.
And it took about four days to go, four or five days to go
to Lenior and back, sell your load out. Took about two days
to go and get your load off and get back home - and two more
to get back. And if it was slow selling, it took another day
Sometimes you'd see twenty-five or thirty wagons in town selling
produce. They peddled a lot; they'd go from house to house,
done a lot of peddlin'. And sometimes they'd buy half a
bushel of potatoes, apples, bushel - bushel of potatoes, maybe,
and a bushel of apples. Oh, the next house, maybe they didn't
want nothing, maybe the next one you'd go to would buy something. That's the way we got rid of a loy of it.
Q. What was the price of farm products back then?
A. Well, potatoes was a dollar or less a bushel. And apples sixty cents to a dollar a bushel. And cabbage was seventyfive cents to a dollar a hundred. Now we didn't get eight or
ten cents a pound back then like they do now.
Q. Did your mother, here at the house, did she bake a lot?
A. Yeah, they baked corn bread and biscuits, fried buckwheat
cakes , made light - homemade, light bread, baked pies,
cookies, sweet bread, that ole molassey bread. And that was
all done in an ole skillet by the fire.
Q. When did ya'll - ya'll get a wood stove?
�A. Finally, I can remember. I helped work out money to buy the
first wood stove my mother ever had to cook on.
Q. Which did she like better, working on the fireplace or the
cookstove?
A. Oh, it was much better to have a cookstove. Easier to do the
cooking, than it was by the fireplace. But that ole cornbread
and light bread baked in them ole skillets, it would melt in
your mouth. It was the best cornbread I ever eat. She had a
great big ole oven she baked light bread in. Loaf bread, they
call it now. A great big thing. And she'd mix her - make
up her yeast and get her dough ready, put it in that big ole
oven and she just heated it real slow, barely warm, you know.
And it'd rise a way up - just puff a way up there. Be that
thick. And then she'd put coals under it and she had a lid
to fit it, a cast iron lid. And it'd rise up there, and she
put the coals on that thing, heat it slow and after a while
it'd just finally turn - when it got done, there'd be a good
brown crust on it. And it was really good. A lot better than
this bread you buy now.
Q. How often did she bake?
A. Oh, only once in a while. Maybe every two or three weeks, to
make that light bread. They didn't bake it every day. They
made biscuits and I can remember when most people, they eat
cornbread for breakfast and biscuits every Sunday morning.
You wouldn't believe that.
Q. I believe it. I love cornbread.
A. I do too. I eat it, most the time, twice a day. They didn't
have wheat flour to make biscuits every day. And you used
eggs and shortening on the old cornbread, and it like you do
biscuits and it was pretty good.
Q. Did you ever have corn fritters?
A. Yeah, I've seen my mother bake corn sweet bread. Bake
it like they did the ole molassey bread, put molasses in it
and it was good. But I'd rather have that old molassey sweet
bread now than to have any you could go to the store and buy.
They baked what they called gingerbread. Great big, thick.
They baked it in cake, make them cakes to fit the skillet.
It was really good. Put ginger in it and that ole gingerbread was hard to turn down, when you're hungry.
Q. Your mother had to buy a lot of spices at the store didn't
she?
A. Yeah, they bought the grain spice and ground it.
�10
Q. Really? Did you have one of those things like a pepper thing
that you ground?
A. Ground the coffee - ground the coffee in the bean. They bought
that coffee green and they parched it, parched that coffee and
they - seen my mother a many a time parch that coffee in a one, them ole skillets. And they had a coffee mill. I've
ground coffee - you seen them, hadn't ya?
Q. Yeah.
A. Hold it between your knees, grind that coffee. The coffee
then, now you got real coffee then. There wasn't no dope in
it.
Q. Did they do the spices the same way?
A. leah, done the spices the same way. Pepper. Gosh, that
ole pepper. You get it in the grain and grind it, you
didn't have to make anything black to taste it. Ah, it's
a gettin' now, you can make your egg black now, and hardly
taste it.
Q. How about, did they dry a lot of stuff?
A. Dried berries, fruit, dried berries, apples, cherries of all
kind. Beans, dried beans, dried pumpkins, they dried a lot
of stuff. I can remember when my mother didn't have more than
two or three dozen cans. Dry that stuff and cook it. And
them ole dried beans, they was worth it.
Q. I've heard of drying apples - I've seen people drying apples
and beans and all. But I've never seen 'em dry cherries or
blackberries. How did they do it?
A. They used to dry lots of blackberries and cherries. And they
didn't do too much canning and they didn't have no way of
freezing it.
Q. How did they do it? Do you remember?
V
A. Well, they had grates, and they had good, big crates they'd
put 'em on. And when the sun shined good, they put 'em out
on....
Q. The apples they'd slice up and cook....
A. Slice up and dry it out. They dried the bigger part of their
fruit at that time. Dried sweet potatoes. My daddy used to
grow a lot of sweet potatoes. He didn't grow 'em for the
market. He'd just grow 'em to have plenty to use. They cooked
them and sliced 'em up and put 'em on crates. And when it
rained, they'd take 'em in and set them around the fireplace,
so that if they ever stayed out in the weather, they's spoil.
You had to keep them dry.
Q. Back then you had the spring houses, right? So that's where
you got your water. When did you build your well out here?
�XX
A. Oh, it's been about forty-two years or longer.
Q. Where was your spring house located?
A. We didn't even have a spring house here. There's a spring
down under the bank there that we used - we just had a box
down there. And we kept pur milk and stuff to keep it cold
in there 'til we dug the well. I was aiming to pump the
water from over yonder, but the spring went dry. And the
people built way up on the hill somewhere and they carried
their water up the hill. Why, they'd carry, some families
would carry as far as from here to the hog house over yonder.
Didn't think about a well or a pump. No, carried their
water from the spring/
Q. How often did you take baths back then?
A. Well, once a week, and you're lucky to do that.
Q. If you had to carry water that far, you wouldn't take it very
often.
A. Didn't have no bathroom in the houses. Outside toilets.
They wouldn't such a thing as a bathroom in the house. No
where in this county and its not been many years so there
wouldn't a bathroom in none of the houses that are here, in
this part of the county.
Q. How big was the house you were born in?
A. Oh, it had about four, four to five, five rooms, I guess.
And some places, they just had one or two big rooms, old log
houses. Three or four beds in one room and the kids slept
in
little beds you pushed under the big ones.
Q. Yeah, tumble beds. I've seen those.
A. And they didn't have a whold lot of room, like they build
houses now. Wasn't a bedroom in every little corner.
Q. Did your mother have to make all your clothing?
A. Bigger part of it. Weave, she had a loom and she'd weave the
cloth, weave clothing - made our clothing. And they made shoes.
There were men had shoe shops round and made most of them, wore
homemade shoes - men and the women. They had a few shoes in the
store, but the bigger part of the farmers wore homemade shoes.
A lot of the women - the women's dresses drug the ground. And
they wore button shoes up about that high. You never seen
them, did ya?
�JL/C
Q. I've seen pictures of them.
A. And the dresses drug the ground.
Q. Did they go to the store and buy the cloth to make their own
dresses?
A. Well, they went to the store and bought some, but the most part
was homemade. Wove at home. My mother had - she'd card the
wool and spin it. She had them spinning wheels and then she
had a tig ole.Toom that she wove that cloth. I've wore homemade clothes many a time, many a day. And they'd make their
underwear. They didn't wear much underwear, like they do now.
They'd make their pants and coats and vests and all like that
out of homemade - outa wool. That old wool'd get next to the
hide, it'd just scratch ya. It'd rip you to death. Wool and they knit your mittens and knit our scoks, outa that homemade wool.
Q. She didn't have a sewing machine, did she?
A. No, my mother never had a sewing machine in her life.
Q. She did all of it by hand?
A. Did it by hand. My aunt done a lot of sewing for people.
She had a sewing machine. Lived up the road here. But my mother
done all her sewing by hand. And the bigger half of the women
did it. Made their own dresses and their men's clothes and
everything by hand - sewed by hand.
Q. They made their quilts too, didn't they?
A. They made their own quilts. Wove their own blankets. Old
yarn blankets. Now that old wool blanket, it'll keep you
warm.
Q. Scratch you to death, but keep you warm.
A. They was really good and they'd last for years and years.
Had feather beds. They kept geece, and picked your feathers
out of them and made bedx. I sleep on a feather bed all year
round now. We've got two or three feather beds. My mother made
it in her life time. And I still sleep on it.
Q. Was the church really important in this community?
A. Well, more than it is today. About everybody walked to church
And ole timey preacher. And they got up there and preached,
we sat on ole benches. Had four legs on 'em shaved out of a
round piece like a chair post. No back. Hardly a few of 'em
had benchs of this - seats made out of plank. But back as Ion
as I can remember they sat on them old split logs. And they
all went and they enjoyed the meeting, they enjoyed the sermon.
And sometimes the preachers had to walk four or five miles.
And he's get maybe fifty cents or a dollar for two sermons.
And they all - and the preaching was over and they all walked
out and ever - out this road they all walked together. Where
�13
one or two would drop out, and they'd stand and talk and they
enjoyed themselves, much more than they do now.
Q. How often did you have meetings?
A. Well, they had it once a month, a lot of churches. Just have
it once a month, two services. Then they'd run a week or two
of revival, sometime during the year, usually in the fall of
the year. And they'd have a - have a real, live one. One
of 'em get happy and they'd really have a time.
Q. Was the preacher a hell-fire, brimstone preacher?
a mild one?
Or was he
A. Well, they - sometimes there'd be one preacher for eight or ten
years before they change. And then maybe they'd set a new one
amd maybe he'd serve a good many years. Now they have to have
a new one about every twelve months, don't they? A lot of
churches. They change right often.
Q. Did the preacher - what type of sermons did he preach? Did
he tell the people what they were doing wrong or did he tell
'em something they wanted to hear, like...
A. Ah, he went to the Bible for it. Told 'em their wrong doing.
Q. What church did you attend?
A. Meat Camp. Right over here. I went ot differnet churches.
Went to Howard's Creek. You know where Howard's Creek is?
Went there part of the time and went to the Rich Mountain
to that church. Sometimes we'd go way down yonder to Fairview
way down toward the river. People wasn't too selfish where
they went to then. Now they have to - there wasn't so many
churches as there is now. Built a lot more as time passed by.
Q. Were there a lot of community activities centered around the
church?
A. Well, not too much.
Not like it is now.
Q. Did ya'll have any square dances then?
A. No, they wasn't no - wasn't nothing of that kind a going on
in this part of the country.
Q. What did ya'll do for recreation, when you weren't farming?
A. Well, we'd go a fishing or squirrel huntin1 or something of
that kind.
Q. What did you do when you were courtin'?
A. Well, we walked out there to our girlfriend, whereever she
might be. Sometimes we'd go to church, sometimes we'd walk
out and pick cherries in the summertime. Sometimes they'd have
a candy pullin'. Gatherin' in all and have music. Not too
much dancing. There wasn't many people could dance.
�Q. Did they "flatfoot" a lot around here?
A. Well, not too much.
Q. What type of music did you have?
A. Had a fiddle and a banjo. Once in a while a guitar, French
harp. My daddy and a neighbor, they went lots of places and
made music. My daddy was a fiddler and my neighber was a
banjo-picker. They'd go to the closing of the school, sometimes to a neighbeor's house, make music - a few of the neighbors
would come in. They'd just set and enjoy it. Close of the
school, they usually had 'em come in. They'd give 'em a
dollar or two at the close of the school.
Q. Tell me something about the school around here, like the
size of it, and the people in it?
A. Well, these old school houses where they walked, I've known
teachers to walk five or six miles to teach school. And there
wasn't too many One teacher was all they had, and they teached
up to about the seventh grade. And then they had to go - they
went to Boone then to finish up. The eighth or tenth grade,
something like that. Go to Boone - go to town for the rest
of it.
Q. Tell me about life during the Depression.
A. Well, we got enough to get by with, but it was hard going, we
just had to work a day or two to get a little chew meal to help.
And we're lucky to get by with it. People didn't have enough
to eat. They got by, but Their clothes were pretty bad, hard
to get a day's work. Dug roots and drained the wood and dug
roots and gathered herbs to help keep clothing and something
to eat.
Q. How about - were there a lot of moonshiners?
A. No, not much. There's never been - oh there's a few around.
Right many in Wilkes County. And if they had to get something
to drink, they went to Wilkes and got the most ot it. I can
remember when you could buy corn whiskey for sixty cents a
gallon, and it was pure corn. And they was - there was one
man that made it, I'll never - my mother got some for my
grandmother once, take it back here between here and Todd,
on the Big Hill. He had a bonded outfit and they come around
and check 'em once in a while. Gaugers would come around they wasn't allowed to have so many barrels, you know. He'd
come around and they always knowed when he was coming, then they
would get it down to where they wasn't in no trouble. And
theycould sell - I don't know how much they's allowed to sell.
I was too little to know much about it.
�15
Q. Do you remember any government programs?
the CCC?
Such as the WPA and
A. No, no, well, I remember when the WPA worked here. They bought
'em a lot of mules to farm with. They were army mules that
was brought here when the war was over with Germany. And they
had people take 'em and work 'em. Farm 'em too, try to raise
'em something to eat. And they worked 'em on the road. They
worked a whole lot - the WPA worked at a building that highway ,
They let 'em work ehm mules, to farm with and, I don't know,
they all just gor old. Last one I ever knowed of, well it had
a picture of him. An old white mule and man a following the
plow. And they said the best they could estimate his age, he
was fifty-five years old. He was a relief mule.
Q. Oh, the mule was fifty-five years old.
A. He was fifty-five years old, the best they could estimate
his age. H<=: was still a pulling the plow. I never did get
one, I didn't use 'em. Had my own work horse. We plowed it
off a lot, plow, harrow with 'em, seen'a few worked a mowing
machine. But they was too slow to do much more with a machine
Most of it was with things like that out there. Pitch fork,
I've seen 'em use. I've seen 'em use old hoemmade pitchforks,
three-prong, I've got one. I'll show it to you. I've got one
that I guess is two hundred years old.
Q. You've given us a lot of information. I've just got one more
question. What's your philosophy of life? Do you have one?
A. No, I don't think I have one.
Q. Why do you think you've lived as long as you have?
getting along pretty good here.
A. Well I just worked hard all my life.
day, eat cornbread.
You're
Drink lots of water every
Q. Molasses bread too.
A. Molasses bread and I get along pretty good.
Q. Have you got anything you'd like to add to what we've already
talked about?
A. No, I couldn't think of anything more that would be of any
interest to you.
Q. Well, thank you very much.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scnajet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-24
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Title
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Interview with C.K. Norris, June 11, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
C.K. Norris was born in 1891 in Meat Camp, North Carolina where he grew up on a farm.
Mr. Norris talks mostly about growing up on the farm, such as raising crops and livestock. His family would haul their produce to Lenior, Hickory, and Morganton to be sold. Mr. Norris talks a lot about food throughout the interview including how to dry fruits and vegetables, make sauerkraut, use spices properly, grind coffee, salt meat, and make maple syrup. He also describes other aspects of his childhood including church, school, and the Great Depression. Mr. Norris also talks about WPA's affect in the Meat Camp area.
Creator
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McNeely, Mike
Norris, CK
Source
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<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/11/1973
Rights
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Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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15 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape71_CKNorris_undatedM001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Meat Camp, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Norris, C. K.--Interviews
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century
Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
United States--Work Projects Administration
C.K. Norris
cane mill
church
dried beans
dried fruit
farming
Great Depression
Hickory
hogs
Lenior
livestock
Meat Camp
Meat Camp Church
molasses
Morganton
North Carolina
sauerkraut
spices
spring house
wagon
weaving
WPA
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/27b53db1ad01c1f3a826eda7b31264f6.pdf
cb874bf7faff180b24891f6117d6ed17
PDF Text
Text
AOHP #$7
This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Project on April
10, 1973. The interview is with Mr. L.E. Tuckwiller, County Agricultural
Extension Agent for Watauga County. The interview is being conducted by
Joy Lamm.
Q: Mr. Tuckwiller, you have been county extension agent for how long now?
At
Thirty years this last February.
Q: Are you going to be here thirty more?
At
No. I expect about another year and a half or two years will get my tenure
filled out.
Qt
Was this your first job?
At
No. I worked for a cooperative, coming out of school, for seven years -
Farmer's Cooperative over in Cherokee and Clay County, N.C.
Qt
What kind of cooperative?
At
It was handling feed, farming supplies. At that time we were making some
butter, and also we were pasteurizing some milk, and got into bottling milk
before I 16ft there. We were processing farm products and selling supplies also*
Q; Was this a large farming area?
A: No, it's a very small farming area. Farms are small - well, I would say
an average of 30-1*0 acres per farm. Most of the farmers had from one to five
cows and sold a little surplus milk. They also, at that time, were keeping a
large number of chickens - by large number, I mean most of them had a few
chickens which amounted to a large number in the area. Cur cooperative purchsed
the eggs, ran trucks through the community. We purchased the eggs and purchased
the chickens«
That was before broilers got to be very prominent, so we purchased
what we call fryer chickens, and roasters0 They were fryers after they weighed
about h Ibs., they they were called roasters after they got above that. So we did
quite a bit of business that way.
Qs
And then you pulled these and sold them at a market?
At
Sold them mostly in Atlanta, Georgia. We had a truck that usually carried the
produce to Atlanta each week* Thay would take some live chickens, some eggs and
�often times some butter, processed and packaged of course. We would bring back
farm supplies, and also, often times we would bring back feed.
Qs Now what years were these?
Aj That was 1931| - 19U2. I graduated from Berea in 193U, June, and went directly
to this cooperative. The post office was Brasstown, N.C, I left there in February
of 19U3 to come over here.
Qs
And so your only training before then was at Berea?
At
At Berea, yes. In the meantime, since I'*ve been working here, I've been to
workshops and extension courses. I've taken k of their three-week summer sessions.
I've had numerous week-long sessions of training, what we call in-service training.
I couldn't count those, there's been many of them, usually 2-U a year. So you
count 30 years, there were probably 75-100 of those week-long sessions.
Q: Plus working in the cooperative was probably the best trainifeg you could get,
wasn't it?
As That was good training, yes.
Q: What was your job in the cooperative?
A: When I started I was called the butter-maker. I made the butter, processed the
sour cream. I did that for approximately a year, then I was promoted to manager
of the Cooperative Feed Store, and as that I was kind of kicked upstairs to an
office.
Someone else took over the butter-making, and I suppose that would be the
title you would call me through the other six years that I was there. But, of
course, we grew from a small butter-making plant. We began to handle poultry and
eggs and more feed and supplies in 1937> so it increased in volume from, oh, I
think we had sales of something like $i|0,000 - $50,000 the first year, and it ran
up to about $250,000.
QJ What was the name of the co-op?
A: Mountain Valley Cooperative, Inc. It's defunct at the present time,, Went out
of business after we quit the manufacture of butter from sour cream collected from
farm to farm0 You see, the Health Department got into that a little bit.
�Qt
How did you make the butter?
A: The sour cream came to us in containers, cans , and we pasteurized it and made
the butter in those large churns - well, not a large churn - we would make from
300-500 Ibs. of butter at a time, but it wasn't large. Of course, they have churns
that will make k or f> tons of butter at a time.
Qs Was this electric or hand operated?
A: It was electric. The churn and the pasteurizer was electtic. Of course, we
had the steam boiler that produced the heat for pasteurization - just a process we
went through.
Q: And did you have a factory?
A: It was a small factory - I'd guess you would call it a small factory. The
building was about 100' X 1 0 I believe. Run one way kO1 and then we had the
|'
boiler room to the back. It was a small unit.
Q: Getting back to Berea, could you tell me about your schooling there; what you
studied, and what you remember about the school?
As Well, it was a four-year collegej a small college, with only about liOO students
when I went there. They did away with the section they called normal school, and
they built it up to around 800 by the time I left there. I went in 1930, right in
the bottom of the Depression, and then it was coming out of the Depression a little
bit in 193U» when I completed there.
Qs What was it like going to school during the Depression?
A: Well, I suppose it might have been easier going to school during the Depression
than any other time, because you couldn't get a job, and if you could make enough
to kino, of keep going, why you could feel like you had been occupied. So, I didn't
have any money, and Berea was a very economical school to attend - I worked 2 hours
during the week, and on Mondays when we didn't have classes. I usually tried to
work from U-6 hours, and of course our wages were Iow0 I think I started in around
1U# an hour and worked up to 2£# an hour, which is not quite the minimum wage now!
I was able to go through school - I think I had something like $165 when I went there-
�I borrowed from the strident fund, worked, and got out owing approximately $300,
Probably did pretty well. I worked through h years, stayed at the school during
the summer months, and worked - first summer I worked in a broom factory carrying
broom corn to the broom makers. Then I worked in the shipping department the latter
part of the summer. The other two years I worked in the creamery. That's where
I learned to make butter, pasteurize the milk, make cheese, so it was a learning
experience even while I was working.
Qs And this is what got you interested in the Job with the co-op?
At
I expect it was. At that time, jobs were very scarce. A few of the boys got
jobs teaching - or boys and girls - got jobs teaching. When that was over, there
were not many that were employing college graduates for more than just manual labor,
and I felt very fortunate to get a job; even though the salary was very low, it was
a job.
Q: Inhere was your family living during these depression years?
As My family was on the farm, or were paying on a farm in Greenberry County,
West Virginia, and they were lucky to keep their payments up, and they were not
able to help me. Also, the two sisters at that time were just finishing high school
and were ready to go to college. They finally wound up going about a term each, but
they didn't go through. But if there had been a little more money, they probably
would have.
Qt Were you born and raised in West Virginia?
AJ
Yes, I was.
Qs Was this in the mountainous section?
A«
Yes, it's not quite as mountainous as around Boone, but over where we were
raised it was what they called the rolling lando And, part of it got up on the
mountains also, but we had land you could get machinery over. It wasn't quite the
one-horse farm you find in some of the steeper mountains0 It was a 200-acre farm quite a. bit of land involved,
Q: T/fes there coal mining going on around there, or was it agricultural?
�A: It was agricultural entirely,. There was coal mining approximately 25 miles
away. We were - well, later than that it came a little closer when it got to strip
mining. But, we just at that time, some few were beginning to go to the coal
fields for work, because the roads were built just before that; they had hard
surfaced road, and they begun to get automobiles and trucks dependable enough to take
a transport to and from the coal mines. Up until that time, we were strictly
agricultural, and that was the only kind of work we had available. There was not
much money. I can tell people we grew up in poverty, but we didn't know it, se it
didn't make too much difference I guess*
Qt Did you make and have the things you needed from the farm?
A: Most things we made. We bought, I think my mother had the few chickens. She
made some homemade butter. She sold butter and eggs to get sugar, salt, coffee.
As I remember, that was most of the things we purchased. The rest of the things we got our meat, vegetables, wheat for the flour - most everything was produced
right there on the farm.
Q* When were you born?
A: September 16, 1908.
Qi Were you at home when the Depression started?
Ai I was - yes, I suppose. I finished high school in 1?29 and I got a job working
on a neighborhood sawmill, immediately after finishing high school, and my
application for college; I planned to work a year to try to get a little money to
go to school on. Actually, the Depression hit, started in 1930, and that's the
year I started to Berea, So, I had my application in, had been accepted, and was
planning to go when things begun to really tighten down.
Q: When you growing up on the farm, did your family farm by planting by the signs,
or did they have any superstitions regarding fanning?
AJ We heard about those all along, but as a rule we paid no attention to them.
My father was not much on signs, neither was my mother, so we planted when the
ground was dry, and we farmed when the weather was suitable, so I heard very little
�about the signs when I was growing up from my family. Now there were people in the
neighborhood who did farm by signs. They did certain jobs when the signs were right
and only when they were right. I heard them, but I never grew up believing in them
very much.
Q; Do you remember any particular superstitions?
A: Oh, I heard quite a number of things. If you planted when the sig.i was in Twin,
I believe, it was suppose to yield a good crop0 If you planted when the moon was on
the decrease, your bacon and fat would shrivel up when hogs were killed. Several things
I heard, but I don't remember too many of them.
Qs It was a whole lot easier to just go on and do what you wanted to do.
At
I tiling so, yes.
Qs
Did your mother help your father on the farm?
As Not too much, except my mother always did the milking in the summertime and my father
was working in the fields* Usually in the winter months, my father took over that chore.
My mother always tended to her chickens, those were hers. She took care of those0 The
rest of it, my father pretty well took care of. My mother was there were six of us
children born just two years apart then, for 11 years, so she had her hands full at the
house. I was the oldest of six. She didH have much time to get out in the farm. She
would help occasionally. In hay harvest, she would get cut and what we call hitch hay
shocks, bringing hay into the stacks. Or, she would drive the wagon hauling the hay
sometimes, something like that.
Q: What about your sisters? Did they have different tasks to do than the boys?
A: They had their household tasks to do, and as I remember, one of them would-it kind
of rotated-one of them would wash dishes, one of them would peel potatoes and prepare
�the vegetables, and one of them would carry in the wood-that got to be-we cooked with
a. wood stove-it was a right smart little chore sometimes. My father and I did a lot
of that, but during the summer months, why, that usually fell to the girls. They
carried the wood in from the wood shed, saw that everything was ready for the fire.
The water was on the back porch. Had an old well bucket, so they had to draw the water
at certain times. Some few things like that that I remember.
Q: Had your family been in that area for several generations?
A: Yes. The old family farm had been in the family since this area was settled, because that area, the colonists from Virginia began to spill over in there, about the
1^70's, sometime in there. Some of the little tales that I can remember about some
of the ancestors that had been in there. Around 1785, something like that—they had
been there for a long time.
Q: What are some of the tales that you remember?
-A: Well, the tales, of course the ones that are scary, and things like that, would be
the Indian raids. One that my grandmother used to tell was pouring scalding water through
the puncheon floor to scald an Indian that had crawled under the floor to try to get into
the house. Of course, that would be one I would remember, something like that. Then,
about hearing the Indians at night-acting like- making sounds like hoot owls communicating
with each other across from the home, and barring the door-keeping everything closed. I
remember those kind of things0
Qt
Did they ever have any attacks?
At
Not right in our immediate community. There was a fort some 8 or 10 miles away that
did have and Indian attack-in fact, I think it was burned. I believe one time, but there
was none right in our immediate community0
Q: What was the name of the fort?
�A:
Fort Donneley.
Q:
This was in your grandmother's day?
At
No, it was before my grandmother. My grandmother was born about 1852 or 1853• That
was after the Indians were driven out.
Ail these tales were before, just something
passed down by her parents or grandparents, or something. There was no Indian there
when my grandmother was, as far as I know. She said there was bears and deer. I heard
them tell about seeing deer go through the clearings they hacked out of the woods, things
like that.
Q:
Did they have some Civil War stories?
As
Tes. There were some Civil War stories. They were pretty well on the border, and
I think seme of the people went to each army, so there was-I don't know of any brothers
against brothers, but I've heard some tales of some cousins against cousins on different
sides. There was always an alert to - if the soldiers of either side were coming, they
were to hide in the woods or somewhere„
Qi Who was to hide?
AJ
The family-the women and children would hide.
Qs
Oh, the whole family would go hide?
AJ
Yes, they would particularly try to take care of the horses because the horses were
essential to the farm. So they would try to hide the horses0 There's one tale-this is
limestone country-and ther's one tale that they took the horses of anyone to a limestone
cave and took them back into where they couldn't hear the horses of any soldiers Cavalry
that came by.
Those were scary tales too, you know.
Q:
The soldiers on both sides would come through and just take whatever they wanted?
A:
Yes, that seemed to be the idea, that if either side would come through, they would
�pick up anthing was loose. If there was a cow or calf, they would drive it
off, you see. If they found any potatoes, why, they would take them. That's
all "hear say", but I would suspect that there is quite a bit of truth in it.
Q:
What side was your family on?
A:
Most of my family was on the Soughern side-Confederate side. My father's
people were all, and my mother's people were divided somewhat. There was two
sections of those. One brother had already migrated to down of the Ohio River,
which is 150 miles further northwest, and they were very definitely Yankees,
but the ones right there in the community I suppose they had more Southern sympathy than they had for the Northern. The next door neighbors was a Northern
soldier so-both ways.
Qs
Do you remember any stories about hiding runaway slaves?
As
No, I suppose that, evidently, not many went through that areao I think
that most of the slaves headed further East into-up Harper's Ferry, West Virginia.
Of course, that was Virginia until Civil War time<> West Virginia was cut off because what is now West Virginia wanted to go with the confederacy. That's really the reason the state of West Virginia was formed I guess, when you get basically down to it.
Q:
Your family migrated from Virginia?
A:
Yes, they migrated from Virginia. They came with the colonies from-well,
actually we don't know what ship the ancestors came over on or anything like
that, but they were with the Jamestown Settlement, but they might have been,
I don't know.
Qt
You had never been down to Norht Carolina until you came down after col-
lege?
As
I came down after finishing college and got a job.
Qj
What were the farming conditions like when you first came to this area
�10
30 years ago?
At
Well, most everyone depended on their farm for their income, whether it
was, whether they actually farmed or whether they did business with the fanners
such as the fertilizer dealers and the merchants. The biggest payroll of course
was Appalachian State University, as it still is. We had, the census gave us
around 2600 farms, and the income about l^g million, total sales during the year,
so you see, there wasn't really a lot of money floating around<, Part of it was
what we would now call "Subsistence farming", with making most everything that
you used at the farm, on the farm, and in the home. We didn't buy a lot. I
guess the grocery stores would say we didn't buy anything much,
Q:
What portion of the farm products were marketed?
AJ
We were producing at that time quite a number of vegetables. In I9k3>
when I came here-the second World War in progress-we were growing cabbage, snap
beans. Irish potatoes for sale. We were also "growing some beef cattle, a large
number of farmers kept sheep and sold sheep and lambs. Then there were poultry
and eggs on a good many farms at that time. So, we sold vegetables, livestock,
livestock products, and eggs, poultry.
Qt
Did the family use most of what they produced?
Aj
Depending on the size of the farm. The small farmers used a higher pro-
portion of what he produced-total poduetions-thah the larger farmers. Of course,
the larger farmers sold quite a volume of their produce. I would say of the
amount produced was actually sodl or more, and livestock, it would be 9/10 I
expect, because they would produce enough, where 1/10 of what they produced
would supply their needs.
Q:
How did you define1 "subsistence" then?
A:
Well, what we mean by subsistnece was what that most of them raised all
that they needed on the farm, and then sold the surplus.
Q:
Were there outside laborers that worked on the farm?
�n
A:
Usually neighbors. The small farmers would work on their own farm part
of the year, and then work for their neighbors part of the time.
Q:
And the neighbor would pay them cash?
AJ
Cash, or pay them sometimes in farm produce, swap labor with them sometimes.
There wasn't an awful lot of cash to change hands, but some of it did, of course.
Q:
What were your main markets—the main commodities produced?
As
The vegetables were sold through-at that time we had, well Goodnight Bro-
thers were operating at Hollar's Produce, At time to time other large farmers
would have some produce. As trucks,- began to come in, we got more and more
of the outside truckers coming in buying a truckload of cabbage, a truckload
of beans. The biggest bean market in the world at that time was at Mountain
City, Tennessee. We had a bean market there. We had a small bean auction market
here in Boone for a while, and there's also one in West Jefferson. Some of the
towns south and east of here, such as Charlotte, and Gastonia, were good markets
for farm products. Farmers began to get pick-up trucks. They would load a pickup, or maybe a larger truck, with cabbafe, beans, apples-take off down there for
2 or 3 days and sell a load* Potatoes were a Mg item. We could store potatoes
all winter.
Q:
What did the Goodnight Brothers and the Hollars do?
A:
They shipped their produce by the truckload, to the terminal markets—Atlanta
Charlott$, and up the Eastern Seaboard-Washington, New York. I've even heard of
sine if tgen giubg as far as Boston. Some went to Louisiana. That used to be a
pretty big market for cabbage in the late summer, so they distributed wherever
they could find a marketo
Q:
Did they use the railroads at all the ship the produce?
A:
Some. But, most of them went by truck* They could load up in Boone and be
in Washington, D.C. the next day. The railroad was a little slower. A good many
�12
of the livestock, cattle and sheep, were shipped by train to the processing
plants in New York City, Baltimore, Maryland. Usually our produce would head
East and North, because you could get it from the West in to New York a little
later in the season0 • We were a little bit earlier than some of the northern
markets•
Q:
Ai
Were there any local trucking companies?
There were some local trucks. Sometimes you would find people that would
gather up a load and take it to these markets themselves. Some fortunes were
made that way, and some were lost too, from what I hear. A rather risky business.
Q: Do you know the names of any of the people who did that?
A: Well, the Critcher brothers, Fred Critcher and his f?mily, were one of the
ones that I remember making a pretty big success of it. They are still in the
business.
Then the Hollars family was into it. Of course, the Goodnights,
that's the way they started,, They started with, I think, if I remember tales
I've heard. They started with just a wagon and horses, hauling cabbage and
potatoes to the East or Southeast, selling them that way.
It grew into a very
successful business. The Cooks, McNeils, Browns, you could just about name
any family.':and you would find somebody that's done a little bit of that trucking trying to get produce to the market.
Q: Were there any particularly larger farmers when you first came here?
A: Well, yes, there were some large farms. Most of the large farms were
livestock because they could handle livestock with less labor than the vegetable farm. That's, in what we would call large fawns, there really was not
any. I expect the largest would be 1 0 - 0 acres with £0-68 acres cultivation
|050
which would be what we would call a large farm, which wouldn't be anything,
today we wouldn't call it large,, But, the average farm in Watauga County
�13
has always been somewhere from £0-60 acres, wiich would indicate that there's
quite a number of 10-20 acre farms, some were UOO-5QO acres.
Q: Who were the larger farm owners?
As
Well, one of the larger ones that I remember was the Dr» Peary farm
which more recently is owned by Floyd Ayers, who is now deceased,and over on
Highway 10$. Then we had farms over in Valle Crucis, the Tom Beard farm,
Will Mast farm, the Taylor farm, Don Shall farm, those were fairly large farmsi
Down at Brownwood on the Ashe County line, we had the Coopers, Albert Cooper
farm, it was a fairly large farm. And down at Deep Gap, old man Moretz had
all that land there in the gap, which was a pretty large farm. Of course, a
few of them stiU have farms. The Murray Brown farm, he was a pretty young
man at the time, he had a little over 100-150 acres, rapidly accumulating more,
The Neil Blair farm, where the golf course is now, was considered a pretty
large farm.
ASTC Dairy Farm was considered a fairly large farm.
Q: So a lot of this area that we've seen developed into other things is
where the prime farm land used to be?
At
That's right. The development has taken quite a large part of the better
farm. The Neil Blair farm was a big farm. Where the Hound Ears development
is was the Claude Shore's farm. That was not an exceptionally large,farm,
but it was good farm land. Where Boone now sits, wJiere all this shopping
development on the Blowing Rock Road is, see that was farm land. That belonged to the Farthings-mostly, Grady Farthing's brothers, Ed, Zeb, and Don.
Q: How do you feel when you see the shopping centers and bulldozers where
your best farms used to be?
Aj Well, I have mixed fellings on that. A lot of the people are making an
easier living, at least part-time, in industry, than they were able to make
on the farm with the assets that we had for farming.
So, that has helped.
But, also I hate to see the bulldozers tearing up our land. I think it could
�be done without as much destruction as has been for the last few years, but
they say it's progress, so we'll go along with it to a certain extent. We'll
do all we can to try to keep them from tearing up all the beauty0 We still
think that the farmers are the backbone of Watauga §ounty, that is as far as
the attraction for tourists» There's nothing more attrac tive in our reports
that we get, one of the things that they like about Watauga County is these
well-kept farmsteads and nice cattle on the hill, tilings like that. So, I'm
still a farmer, I believe in farming.
Qs
Do you think that it will be possible to continue with out well-kept
farms and cattle on the hillside?
A: I'm hoping it willo I know we'll have difficulties and we're going to
have problems. But, I think we'll be able to maintain quite a bit of that,
and may see some of it coming backo We've cleared some land when we're trying
to farm extensively that I know would be better off in forests. So, I'd like
to see some of these steeper, rougher places go back to forest production,
which I think would add to the beauty of the area. I hope that we'll be
able to keep enough of our rolling land, sloping land, bottom land, to produce feed for livestock, support our operation, and I believe we will.
Q: Were you involved in the timber growing business, or was most of the limber sold before you came here?
As Most of the timber was sold before I came to the country. We have had
the part in getting quite a number of seedlings set, pine seedlings, poplar
seedlings, and in some cases walnut seedlings, locust..
T e've
also been in-
volved in sane timber stand improvement work, but most of that timber was cut
out before we came or was being cut out during WWII, pretty extensively at
that time. So, we didn't get in on too much. We worked with the land owners
where we could„
�Q:
How did WW II change farming, or change the acea?
As
Well, when WW II was over, the market for Vegetables dropped off, and our
farmets went to other types of production. Many of the boys who had been in
WW II were not satisfied with what they could produce and income they could
get on the farm, so they went seeking other employment. It was a period of
change--the automobile came in strong*, prosperity seemed to increase and the
young people became more restless. Of course, the rural prpulation was too
great for the land to support all of them, so they began to spread out.
Qs
Would you say this was when the major change took place?
As
I think it is, yes.
Qs
Right at the end of the war?
As
Yes, just in the years right after the end of the war. Actually, I expect,
when we begun to get industry in Watauga County, most of it occured in the 'Jo's
which was a period not too lone after the war. We begun to take stock of what
we had, and work with industry to get some payrolls in the county. So, we were
instrumental in studying the situation and getting several facts before the
people. Then we worked with the Chamber of Commerce and others to bring in some
industry. I tell some of them we might have overdone it.
Q!
Were you personally involved in helping to get industry in?
A:
Yes, we were. We were one of the counties designated as rural development
county, and in 1956 one of three in N. C. An extensive study was made of the
situation and the assets and possibilities in Watauga County. We got quite a
lot of help from the state, notable N. C, State University. We were pretty
active in that,
Q:
Going back for a minute, during the war, was there a decrease in farming
because the men were away?
As
Well, we have reduced the land that is being used for agriculture. I think
�16
according to the US Census, only about % of Watauga County is now used for
agricultural purposes. Most of the agriculture has shifted from a row-crop
vegetable production to more of a livestock economu with grass covering the
hillfi, and some of the roughland going back to trees. The income from the farm
has increased from about $1.5 million sales back in 191*5 to approximately $k.£
million at the present time, and the large part of the people that live on the
farm, one or more members are now partly employed or full-time employed in
industry.
So, we would say that our area is more of a part-time fanning area
at the present than it was back in those days.
Q:
What about the crops that are grown? Has there been any change?
A:
The crops grown now are mostly the U-H crops, grass crops, livestock feed
crops. We've gotten away from the vegetables, and the crops that require too
much labor—what we call child labor. There's not as many people on the farm,
the farm families are not as large, they don't have a large number of children
growing up to help pick beans and cabbage and things like that, so we're getting
away from that type of farming.
Qj
Are more outside laborers employed?
A:
No, most of the farming is done by the fanner and his family,, There's
not too many outside laborers employed by the farm. There is some, but not
as much as there was a few years ago.
Q:
What about the markets?
A:
Well, the market—transportation has come in with the better roads and
trucks, so you can get rid of most any crop you can produce. On the other hand,
the transportation through the U. S, , so that crops producedlin one area, can
be qu±6kly transported to another area where they're used. So, that's maybe
reduced the demand for the corps we produce in other areas with machinery, and
the price has become more equalized and not as profitable for us.
�1?
Q: Do you sell the grain crops outside of this area?
A: No, ma'am, most of the grain crops are now fed to Itestock in the area, and
we're even importing some grain from other areas, because it's easier to buy
corn produced at the foot of the mountain than it is to grow it here, sometimes
more economical. But, we grow our hay crops and our silage crops,
Q: What is a silage crop?
A: That's corn that is put in these horizontal silos and used for livestock
feed during the winter months, usually corn,
Qi Since cattle is one of the major animals raised, how do you feel about the
meat controversy?
As We do not agree with the housewife when she says she's paying too much for
meat. If she had to get out here and produce it, I think she'd change her mind.
We think food is still a bargain. The U.S. housewife is only spending around
17$ of their income for food. Most countries, they're spending quite a bit more,
so the farmer, as yet, is not getting his fair share. I think the increase in
price, the increase has come about largely because of increase in the cost of
labor, transportation, marketing, and so on.
Qt Are there any particularly good years that you can remember, or one best
year or best period, for farming in the area?
At No, I don't remember any particularly good years that, there was a time long
about '50 or '51 when livestock prices were quite a bit higher than they had been
before, that were considered good years for livestock producers. Every so often
you'd have a good year for vegetable producers0 Cabbage would bring a good price,
but I don't recall which years those might be.
Q: What about a worst year or years?
A: The worst years were the years around 'f&-'55, in there, when we had unreasonably dry weather for our area, and our vegetable crops were short, so we ran
short all the way through« Those were pretty hard years for us. We can get
�19
them anytime again, too.
Q:
Do you know how the 'ijO's flood affected the soil, and therefore, the
farming?
A:
Only from hear-say. There were still signs of the flood on these mountains
when I came in 'ii3. Many of the little fertile valleys were covered with logs,
ricks, and debris taken out of cultivation. We could see what they called "burst
outs" on the sides of the mountains, where it looked like big patches of the mountain slipped off and slid down the valley. It was evidently, a scary time of destruction at that time.
Qr
Was that land ever recovered?
A:
A lot of it is gradually being recovered, but there's some of it that has not.
Some of it was just graved beds. The highway department has gone into several places and scooped up the gravel and used it for highway construction, and things
like that.
I'd say 1S% of it has been recov ered, but farmers have been reluctant
to plow up those bottoms and make them more vulnerable to erosion, in case we do
have high water. We tru to keep a high percentage of it in sod crops that won't
be—they can be washed away, but it takes more water to wash them away, and it's
n6t quite as vulnerable.
Q:
Have there been any floods or natural disasters since then that have affected
the terrain for farming?
A:
Not to any extent. Some of the river bottoms have flooded a little bit, but
we've been remarkably free of disasters-natural disasters-such as excessive flooding or wind damage, tornado damage, anything like that.
Q:
Could you comment on the Watauga Sour Kraut Factory and impact on farming?
A:
The Watauga Krout Factory was here when I came. They have been processing
cabbage from 75-125 acres of land over the years. They were, I guess, one of the
first industries using farm products.
Sawmills used lumber, timber, but--and they
�have helped quite a number of farmers, probably 60-100 per year, with a small
income, no excessive income, but they've been a good substantial, stabilizing industry for our area.
Q:
When was that started, do you know?
As
I do not know, but I think it must have been just about after the first World
War, shortly afterwards sometime, but I do not know just when,
Qt
Do you know who started it?
At
I do not, I'm sorry.
Q:
Who runs it today?
A:
Mr. and Mrs**Bil Miller-William Miller-are the operators. Mr. Miller's father
operated, it for some time with the help of Dr. K. C. Perryk who I think furnished
part of the financing. So, I really don ft know just how they gained control of it>
or just what did happen. Maybe I should have been curious enough to try to find
out, but I did not.
Q:
But they are still as successful as ever, aren't they?
A?
I think so.
They—I don't think they make any great lot of moJiey out of it,
but they are making a living and they're supplying a market for cabbage, which is
a good thing for out there.
Q:
They buy from individual farmers, is that what they do?
A:
Yes.
Q:
How has—I'll ask you this, then I'll
let you rest. How has your job changed
over the years?
A:
My job, when I started, was working with individual farmers trying to help
them change their management practices, or their production practices, to produce
more and make more money for their farm. My job has been more in the last—well,
since the rural development program in the mid 1950's, has been to try ot help the
people help themselves, whether it be in agriculture or whether it be funding employ-
�ment or starting some kind of small business that would help them with better incomes or make a better living0 It's evolved from a help the people in a limited
way with agriculture to helping them in any way that we can to make—to give them
a better living whether it means more money or just more pleasure from what they
are doing.*
Qs
What sort of assistance has the United States government given to these kind
of programs to help people?
As
Of course, part of the salary of the country extension agents, home agents,
Ij-H agents, is appropriated by the Congrss and that comes through the North Carolina University which is supplemented with some money from the—appropriated by
the state and them that is in turn supplemented by some county money topay personbel and to do research work to try to increase the income or the know-how of farmers c, You see, back thirty years ago, we were producing thirty to thirty-five bushels of corn per acre when the hybrid corn was devleoped and now we're not satisfied
if they don't ge over a hundred. So there's been quite a lot of work from the federal government, the U, S, Department of Agriculture, plant breeding, animal breeding
and soil testing, fertilization, chemicals can be used to control pests, those kind
of things. The research, as far as direct supplement ot farmers, unless you would
call the fertilizer that came through the agriculture stabilization program as a
supplement, why the department has not given farmers the handout or anything like
that. They did give them some money to encourage conservation, and that's one
thing that helped us to get away from plowing up too much of these hill land, those
kind of things.
Q:
Well, I have read a lot about how universities like North Carolina State, the
land grant colleges have poured millions of dollars into developing machinery that
really puts the samll farmer out of business and I've been concerned about that.
I wondered how much they've done that actually helped the small farmer.
�22
Q:
Well, unfortunately I think there's too much truth in the statement that they
have developed machinery and technology that the large farmer or the one that is
able to control the acreage or rent their own acres-a little more benefit to them
than it has been to the small farmer, so I'd say there's more truth than we'd like
to talk about that.
Qj
What can the small farmer do to compete then?
Aj
Well, there are certain crops that the small farmer can produce more econom-
ical, that require a lot 6f hand labor and he can increase his income if he's
willing to maybe work a little bit harder. We think this small fruit crop is one
reason we're into the strawberry plant businesso That's an opportunity. We know
that, with proper care, that a farmer could can have a labor income of from $2f>00$3000 from an acre of strawberries and maybe blueberries, take longer to get them
established, but that may increase to that amount or even more so then with such
crops as trellised tomatoes that require a large amount of labor, at a high income
per acre, other fruits, the production of fancy vegetables, things like that. There's
Opportunities there I think and North Carolina State University has worked for those
type of people quite a little bit. Maybe they can do more, but it's a—I don't
think we've left them our entirely and now at the present time we've got--we're
working three, what we call nutrition aids that are working with'the low income
farm families on a-not only producing vegetables, fruits, and a family food supply,
but on usine what they buy from the stores preparing balanced meals and health
care.
Q:
What is the U. S. Government doing to help the small subsistnece family far-
,mer?
Ai:
Outside of the educational assistance we can give them with extension programs
through the home economics and different kinds of sids, I don't know that the Department of Agriculture is doing a lot for the small subsistence farmer. They are
�more concerned with getting the farmer and his family educated so they can take
advantage of employment opportunities. It seems to me that they might be encouraging part-time farmers more that they are full-time farmers on these small farms.
And perhaps, outside of the few speciality crops, especially vegetables, and small
food projects* Why, if the farmer doesn't want to do a pretty good job of management and take quite a bit of pains, he might make more money on the job. But I
think at the same time, and I think our Department of Agriculture is encouraging,
the use of the resources that they have, such as the land for the production of
these high-income-per-acre crops* We are not willing to admit that the samll farmer is completely out.
He may have to do a little bit better job of management,
and have to get his business established, spend a little more money to get started
then he used to, but he can stiU. make a pretty good go of it,
Q:
Is money available to help you get started?
A:
Money is available usually through the Farmers Home Administration and usually
some other sources to help him get started. He does need to work out a pretty good
farm plan and know what he wants to do, and how he wants to do it.
Q:
And that's where you would come in?
A: Yes.
Q:
Do you see any hope in cooperatives or farmer's associations to kind of band
together to compete with the very large farmers?
As
If cooperatives—if there is a place—if they have a specific purpose and know
what they're after, and have a pretty good plan to go after that particular point,
then a cooperative will work. There's been too much emphasis place on cooperatives
just because they're called cooperatives. Farmers get together and they don't know
what they want* They don't plan far enoueh ahead, so I'm not too strong on just
fanning a cooperative just to say we have one. Let's have a purpose and have a
real need for it.
I think the Blue Ridge F.lectric Membership Cooperative-the Elec-
�trie Co-op, the teltphone co-op, have done wonderful-have been wonderful, and they
are doing a good job.
There is a need for it-there's a purpose, and they had it
well planned. If you talk about a little co-op such as a transportation eo-op,
which I know of, it wasn't planned well enough, and the people were not willing
to use it, so those types of things I think we need to be care ful what we get
into.
Q:
What about a cooperative or association to pool and sell produce or livestock?
As
If the visiting markets are not doing what they should then a co-op can step
in and do the job, but your management in a co-op needs to be just as good as in
a business. Sometimes that's hard to1get. We need to study carefully.
Co-ops
are not a cure for everything.
Q:
Are there any in this area?
A:
As I mentioned, the telephone and the electric co-ops are the better ones that
are going strong.
Q:
I'm thinking of fanners.
A:
Well, of course the PCX is a co-op—it's a large one.
Qi
Are there any that market farm products?
A:
Not that I can think of right off hand. But there-is , over in some of the
western counties, there's a tomato marketing co-op, and apple marketing co-op in
Mitchel County* We have not had a co-op here to market vegetableso I think a lot
of that will depend on if you have good, conscientious markets-private enterprise
markets-then the farmers will go along with that before they'll put their own money
in and try to form one of their own. I think they're wise to do that, because its
hard to hire-you just can't hire the type of management that it takes sometimes.
Q:
What about a farmer's market?
A:
Well, we have-now, let me go back a little bit. Our livestock market is-the
building and facilities-is supplied by an association which is leased to private
operators, so we have gone that far, so maybe I better back up a little bit on
�what I said awhile ago. We do have a. livestock association that has supplied the
facilities, which is in turn leased to private operators. Those types of thingsI think the situation has to be evaluated as it develops.
You can't just make
a general statement, say every place should-the producers should land together to
get facilities and them lease it to private operators* Mayb;e they should get the
facilities and msybe operate it themselves, and maybe a private operator who will
bet or funish the capital themselves can do it. So, each situation needs to be
evaluated in itself.
Qx
Has there ever been an open-air market, where the fanners could bring in thfeir
produce?
At
When we had our bean market, there was-you might call that a kind of open-air
market. There's been little small curb markets, but there's never been what you
referred to as an open-sir market, as far as I know, in Boone, as there is in the
larger towns. So, you've got to have buying power before those type of things will
succeed. I don't believe that you have enough buying power around Boone to operate
a very large market. Little private roadside markets, will do a good job. I don't
believe we've got enough buying power to operate a big market*
Q:
Do you know if any of the farmers take their produce to Winston-Salem or other
cities?
A:
Very few. Occasionally you'll get them taken further away the Columbia Veg-
etable Market, Columbia, S. C. we well a few loads down there, but it's sporadic.
A farmer has a surplus and he don't think he's getting the market price satisfied,
then he'll take a load, but it's not a good sustem.
QJ
Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think would be helpful
for us to know?
A:
I believe you've pretty well covered the agricultural situation. I don't
know, I hope I've given you the facts. Ifve given you my opinion, so maybe you
�can compare it to someone elst, and them form your opinion.
Q:
Thank you, Mr. Tuckwillere
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-25
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with L.E. Tuckwiller, April 10, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
L.E. Tuckwiller was born September 16, 1908 in West Virginia. He graduated from Berea College in 1934 and was the Watauga County extension agent for the past 30 years.
Mr. Tuckwiller talks mostly about his career as an extension agent throughout the interview. He explains his academic career and what lead him to the job. Mr. Tuckwiller was born and raised in West Virginia, so he describes the history of that area and compares the land to Boone. He also talks about his childhood on the farm and stories he heard of the Native Americans and the Civil War. For a large portion of the interview, Mr. Tuckwiller talks about farming in Boone and how he has worked with farmers. He also discusses the loss of farming land to development.
Creator
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Lamm, Joy
Tuckwiller, LE
Source
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<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
4/10/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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25 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape57-58_LETuckwiller_1973_04_10M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Boone, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Farm life--West Virginia--20th century
West Virginia--Social life and customs--20th century
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Mountain life--West Virginia--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Berea College
1940 flood
Appalachian State University
Atlanta
Berea College
Blue Ridge Electric Membership Cooperative
Brasstown
Cherokee County N.C.
Civil War
Clay County N.C.
Columbia Vegetable Market
Cooperative Feed Store
country extension
Department of Agriculture
Farmer's Cooperative
Farmers Home Administration
farming
Fort Donneley
Georgia
Goodnight Brothers
Great Depression
Greenberry County
Hollar's Produce
L.E. Tuckwiller
livestock
Mountain City
Mountain Valley Cooperative
Native Americans
North Carolina
North Carolina State University
sawmill
subsistence farming
superstitions
Tennessee
Watauga County N.C.
Watauga Kraut Factory
West Virginia
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3452c0315f054b3e81d01edac3cda72c.pdf
4c7fcd0af7786bcaa3d72357db39392f
PDF Text
Text
AOHP #66
Page 1
This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Lee Greene
for the Appalachian Oral History Project, by Donna
Clawson, at Route 2, Boone, on June 11, 1973.
QUESTION:
Mrs. Greene, I'll start with you.
ANSWER:
Where were you born?
(Mrs. G) You mean the county?
Q:
Yes, the county or the area.
A":
(Ms. G) I was born in Watauga County, or Meat Camp.
Q:
What was the year?
A:
(Ms. G) 1908.
Q:
What about you, Mr. Greene?
A:
(Mr. G) Well, I was born in 1904.
Q:
Were you born in this county?
A:
(Mr. G) Watauga County, yes.
this house.
Just a little ways right here from
That little house that used to stand out here where that other
house was.
Q:
Who were your parents?
A:
(Mr. G) Henry Greene and Lura.
Q:
Who were your parents, Mrs. Greene?
A:
(Ms. G) Pink Jones and Laura Jones.
Q:
Had your parents always lived in this county?
A:
(Mr. G) Yes.
Q:
They were born in this county?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, Watauga County.
Q:
What about your parents?
A:
(Ms. G) They were too.
Q:
Mrs. Greene, I'll talk to you a while then.
did you have?
Both of them.
How many years did you go?
A:
(Ms. G) I just went to the seventh grade.
Q:
How many months out of the year did you go?
What kind of schooling
�AOHP #66 Page 2
A:
(Ms. G) Six.
Q:
Was it a one-room schoolhouse?
A:
(Ms. G) Yes.
Q:
How many teachers did you have?
A:
(Ms. G) Just one teacher, every year.
Q:
The same teacher the whole time?
A:
(Ms. G) No, a different one each year.
Q:
What kind of thing did you study in school?
A:
(Ms. G) Let's see.
Arithmetic, that's what they called it back then.
English, spelling, history, geography, sanitation, and, one other thing.
I can't think of the name of the book. (Mr. G) Grammar? (Ms. G) No.
Q:
That's about the same thing they teach now.
and sisters?
What about brothers
How many did you have?
A:
(Ms. G) I had one brother and four sisters.
Q:
What were their n^^es?
A:
(Ms. G) Well, Docia's my oldest sister.
And Allie Barnes.
You want
their full names?
Q:
Yes, that'll be fine.
A:
(Ms. G) Docia Suddreth, Allie Brown, Bessie Greene, Verlee Brown,
and Stanford Jones.
Q:
Were they all older than you, or were you in the middle?
A:
(Ms. G) I was next to the youngest.
Q:
Mr. Greene, how much schooling did you have?
A:
(Mr. G) I guess I got through maybe what they call the fifth grade.
Q:
How many months out of the year did you go?
A:
(Mr. G) When first I went it was just three months.
There were four older than me.
up to six months.
Q:
Did you study about the same things Mrs. Greene did?
A:
(Mr. G) About the same things.
Then they got
(
�AOHP #66 Page 3
Q:
A:
What about teachers, did you have one each year?
(Mr. G) They teached all the grades that was teached, they didn't
grade them like they do now.
went along.
Passed them through their books as they
Didn't grade them like they do now.
(Ms. G) We never had a
report card or anything like that.
Q:
You just went through?
A:
(Ms. G) Yeah, they just passed you.
Q:
Do you remember the name of the school you went to?
A:
(Mr. G) Huh?
Q:
What was the name of the school?
A:
(Mr. G) Uh, Sands.
Q:
What was yours?
A:
(Ms. G) I went to three different schools.
I guess you know where that is, up Meat Camp.
Springs.
I went to Chestnut Grove.
And then went to Maple
It was only two schools, yeah.
Q:
Well, what year did y'all get married?
A:
(Ms. G) 1927.
Q:
Did you live around here then?
A:
(Ms. G) We lived in PErkinsville.
Q:
How long did you live there?
A:
(Ms. G) Three years.
Q:
Then did you move back up here?
A:
(Ms. G) Yeah, we moved down here where Herbert Foster lives.
And
then we moved from there, down there on the creek, you know where J. D.
Greene owns that little house below the creek.
And then we moved from
there to here.
Q:
How many children do you have?
A:
(Ms.G) Two.
Q:
Mr. Greene, what kind of occupations have you had, what kind of jobs?
A:
(Mr. G) Farming the most of the time, up till the last twenty-two
years.
Two sons.
Then I been working in produce ever since.
�AOHP #66 Page 4
Q:
Can you remember a time when you had hard time getting a job?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, they wasn't no jobs, back then 'cept only farming.
I never had no hard time gettin' a job.
I could get work to do.
body wanted any work done, if I had time to do it.
/
then, you didnjt get too much done away from home.
If any-
If you tried to farm
(Ms. G) They weren't
no plants you know, or anything like that to work at.
Q:
They've not been around here too long.
A:
(Ms. G) No, they haven't.
Q:
What kind of crops did you raise?
A:
(Mr. G) Raised corn, potatoes, rye, wheat, buckwheat.
Q:
Did you sell any of them or did you just use them?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, sold some fo 'em.
his tax.
A fellow had to sell enough to pay
That's the only way we had of paying the tax.
Q:
Is that all you ever had to pay?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, that's about all.
Had to buy a little sugar and
coffee once in while.
Q:
Goodness, that's not like it is today.
What about livestock, did
you have livestock?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, kept one cow most of the time.
two.
(Ms. G) Three, we had three cows.
Part of the time I had
(Mr. G) Three here one time,
didn't we.
Q:
What about churches in this area, what kinds of churches have been
around here?
A:
The denominations and all.
(Mr. G) Well, the Methodist and the Baptist have been around the
longest, I guess.
Q:
Which church did the most people belong to?
A:
(Mr. G) I'm not sure I could tell you about that.
Baptist, most of 'em.
Q:
I suppose the
Right through this area, anyway.
Were the churches a lot different then from what they are now?
�AOHP #66 Page 5
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, they's a whole lot different.
People didn't try to
dress up so fine like they do anymore, when they went to church.
Q:
I guess not.
A:
(Ms. G) Didn't have it to dress in.
Q:
What other ways have the churches changed?
A:
(Ms. G) You answer that. (Mr. G) What?
Q:
What other ways have the churches changed?
A:
(Mr. G) Well, these trends. . . trying to build bigger churches.
And having less attendance, I think, than they used to have.
Q:
That's right.
A:
(Mr. G) That's the way I think they've changed.
Q:
That's true.
A:
(Mr. G) From an old feller by the name of Sands, I guess what give
it the Sands name.
Q:
How did this community get its name?
(ms. G) That's what I've heard.
Can you remember any of the decision makers in this community in
the past years?
A:
(Mr. G) I can't think of any of them.
Q:
I guess its mostly just been involved in the county, iL-/ rather than
so much of a separate community.
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah.
Q:
Has the community changed a lot?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, right smart.
Q:
What about the population of the community?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, more.
Q:
Are either of you interested in politics?
A:
(Mr. G) Interested in politics?
Q:
Yes.
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, I've always been interested.
Q:
Can you remember any special elections?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, all of 'em.
People don't visit nigh like they used to.
Is it more?
�AOHP #66 Page 6
Q:
Oh, really?
A:
Yeah!
Q:
Did you get out and politic?
A:
(Mr. G) No, I didn't politic but I always tried to get over there
and cast my vote.
Q:
Just kept up with 'em, huh?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah.
to go vote.
(Ms. G) We've always just been interested enough
(Mr. G) No, I ain't never took no part in the local affairs
much.
Q:
Well, voting shows a big interest.
How did most of the people
around here vote?
A:
(Mr. G) Well, I guess 'at most of 'em, biggest majority of 'em
was Republicans —
Q:
A:
in this county.
How do you think politics have changed over the
years?
, (Mr. G) I think its got rotten, that's how. (Ms. G) You shouldn't
'a said that.
Q:
No, that's fine.
I've heard a lot 'a people say that.
just about agree with you, too.
A:
I think I
How have the politics changed?
(Mr. G) Used to, the candidates would debate, ya know, at some certain
place and speak against one another, but they don't do that no more.
It's
all on television, or not no speaking a 'tall, or maybe have a few gettogethers somewhere, where the parties met.
An' when they debated aginst
one another, an' face to face in politics it 'uz even more interesting
than it is now.
Q:
I bet it was.
A:
(Mr. G) They'd get so mad they could kill one another when they get
up to speak at one another.
(Ms. G) I can remember going to hear people
speak with my daddy when I was just litt^g,
An ' he'd want to go hear
somebody speak that was on his side, ya know.
night and he'd take us children and go.
They'd usually speak at
�AOHP #66
Page
7
Q:
Well, did they ever get in real heated arguments?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, they'd get in some purty hot 'uns, sometimes.
Q:
What about the crowd, did they get mad, too?
A:
(Mr. G) No, the crowd didn't seem to worry much.
think so.
I can't remember anybody getting too mad.
probably riled up on a few of 'em in the crowd.
that 'ud give us any trouble.
(Mrs. G) I don't
(Mr. G) Course it
(Ms. G) Wasn't nothing
(Mr. G) No trouble, whatever.
I never did
hear of ..having no trouble
Q:
That's unusual.
At least now it seems unusual.
How did people get
around, back when you were growing up?
A:
(Mr. G) We walked, wherever we went.
or a wagon.
We went in a horse and buggy,
My father bought an old steer wagon.
(Ms. G) My daddy had
a steer, yoke 'a steers that I remember we rode to church in.
You know what
a steer is.
Q:
Yeah.
Did you ever walk pretty long distances?
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah.
Q:
How long did it take ya to do that?
A:
(Mr. G) Not too long.
We'd go five or six miles.
Back then when I'se young I could walk
purty good.
Q:
Where did you have to walk to ?
A:
Yeah, ya had to walk to town when ya went to town.
three miles, ya know.
Did you, like walk to town much?
That 'uz about
That 'uz just a short distance, back then. (Ms.G)
Nobody didn't mind walking to town, back then. (Mr. G) Never thought nothing
about it.
(Ms. G) When my daddy moved down here, ya know, where Wilson
Brown lives, we moved down there, and I'se eleven years old when he moved
from Meat Camp down there.
And all of us walked back up to Meat Camp to
church.
Q:
Well, that seems like a long way now.
I guess people have gotten lazy.
A:
(Ms. G) And they'd be running a revival meeting, ya know, at night,
and we'd all fall in, ya know, and get ready in time to go to church at
night.
�AOHP #66
Page 8
(Mr. G) People back then when they had produce to sell they hauled
it to Lenoir and sold it.
On a wagon, and team.
Q:
How long did that take ya?
A:
(Mr. G) Take 'em three or four days to go from thefeto Lenoir and
back.
(ms. G) My brother used to run a steer wagon for hauling produce.
Took a long time to go with a yoke 'a steers down there.
Q:
I guess it did.
A:
(Mr. G) Back then nobody 'uz in no big hurry.
They'j^meet up with
somebody, they'd stand and talk for an hour or two an1 now they won't
hardly speak howdy to ya.
Q:
That's the way it goes.
It does seem to be that way. You'd
\k with people having it easier getti
to spend with people.
A:
(Mr. G) It looks like it.
But they hain't, they've got to go.
(Ms. G) Looks like when you can go so much quicker that you'd have more
time.
(Mr. G) Everythings speeded up the past few years.
Q:
Yeah, I've seen it speed up just as long as I've been alive.
A:
(Mr. G) Yeah, you've seen it speeding up, all the way up. (Ms.G) I
know we lived on Meat Camp one time.
They'uz a having a revival meeting,
ya know, an' they had it in the afternoons and the evenings.
An 1 I can
remember walking and going with Momma, and we went across the
where Mr. Ira Brown used to live, the Dr. Harmon place, ya know, and come
on across that way.
And I can remember, as we went back, ya know in the
fall of the year it began to get dark so early.
And we got down to where
Aunt Mary Jones used to live and it was agettin dark there, and we had to
go through the dark from there on home.
Q:
That'd be something today, wouldn't it.
Where did most of the roads
and the railroads run around here?
A:
(Mr. G) Well, there wasn't no railroads here, till Tweetsie come into
Boone and I don't remember what year that was.
it never did come back in.
It washed it out in "40 and
�AOHP #66
Q:
Where were most of the i(a:ojds and things?
A:
(Mr. G)
Page 9
Only railroad was Todd, I guess.
gauge running into Boone.
place.
And that little narrow
(Ms. G) But the roads now aren't in the same
(Mr. G) And then they built a road that goes up here to Rich Mountair
to get logs out.
And then went on that narrow gauge over to Shulls Mills.
See, they had a sawmill over there.
up Howard's Creek, was there.
(Ms. G) There wasn't much of a road
(Mr. G) No, not much of one at that time.
(Ms. G) Then they built a good road up there.
We can remember it but I
don't remember what year it was.
Q:
What about some of the other roads, like Meat Camp Read?
Was it a
pretty good road?
A:
(Mr. G) No, rough road, and trees so low you couldn't get around them.
(Ms. G) They wasn't many roads that was even just gravelled, much that
you could travel.
Q:
Of course, I guess, without having cars it didn't make much difference
what the roads were like, did it?
A:
(Mr. G) No, they got to improving roads when cars begun to come into
this country.
Got to hard-surfacing 'em then.
(Ms. G) This road that
goes around down here, ya know, this old road, I can remember when they's
a-building that, before I was married.
And then out there at Sands, right
below, or about even with that house there of
( ? Mr.) Cook's, there's a
big mud hole there, ya know, and couldn't nobody get through it.
car had tried to get through there.
And one
There wasn't but a very few, ya know.
They would get stuc^r And they's always somebody coming out to my Dad's
to get Stanford and Daddy to take their yoke of steer and they'd have to
go pull those cars out of the mudhole.
Q:
When did the first cars come in?
saw your first car?
Can you remember the year you
�AOHP #66 Page 10
A:
(Mr.G)
(Ms.G)
(Mr.G)
(Ms.G)
seeing.
then?
I don't remember the exact year.
I don't believe I do remember the year.
It would 'a been about '15, I guess.
But I remember who was driving the first one that I remember
And I was scared of it.
Do you know I was scared of a car back
We lived on Meat Camp, that was before we moved doen here where
Daddy lived.
And we had come to Mr. Dan Cook's to the store, when he had
an old storehouse - - -out ttere.
Well, where was it that stood?
(Mr.G) Right down this side of where J. B."s got# his store.
(Ms.G) No, that first one that was doen here beside- - - (Mr.G) That first one stood right down this side right below the old
Ingram house down there.
Alongside of the road.
(Ms.G) Oh, I thought you said below the road.
(Mr.G) Well, 'tis, down this-a-way.
(Ms.G) Well, it was on the other side of the road.
be, you're right.
Yeah, it would
That one down there. . . .
(Mr.G) He moved out right down and went up by George Hayes', you
know.
When that storehouse stood there.
(Ms.G) You know where Oscar Hayes lives, don't you?
the George Hayes place.
left on around there.
can you remember it?
Well that was
And the road went way around that hill, to the
And right there below where that old Ingram house,
It's not been tore down long.
Q:
Yeah, I think I remember it.
A:
(Ms.G) It's right there below where Charles Hodges, uh,. . .
(Mr.G) . . .slaughter - place is at...
(Ms.G) Well, I don't know what I was going to tell you before that.
Q:
You were talking about the car, the first one you saw.
A:
(Ms.G) Yeah, that car.
We'd been over there to that store, and we
went back around that road, ya know, and we went, walking up around up
through that bottom above where Oscar Hayes lives.
And went on up the road
there a little piece,...we got over in Tommy Hayes' field and walked on
�AOHP # 66
that hill to where the Howard Foster house is.
Page 11
You know, where Howard
Foster used to live, you know, over near Meat Camp.
Who is it lives
there now, Mr. Shook?
(Mr.G) Yeah.
(Ms.G) We'd go right across that hill, ya know.
We heard this car
a-coming before we got to where we always crawled under this wire fence,
ya know, where we'd come up there above Oscar Hayes1.
And I can remember
how scared we was and we run ourselves near to death because we's so afraid
of that car.
And we wanted to get there and crawl under that fence and
get in that field before that car passed us.
it.
And Henry Miller was driving
Henry Miller had bought him a car back then.
And that's the first
car I can remember seeing.
Q:
I bet that would have been scary.
A:
(Ms.G) We was so afraid of that car. . . . because we had never seen
one.
And we's afraid to be out in the road for it to pass us.
Q:
Can you remember the first car you saw?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, I believe it was along back about '14 or '15.
Around
that year.
(Ms.G) It was . . . now we moved from over there in 1918.
And it
was just a few years before that becuase I was a purty goog-sized Qirl.
And I was eleven years old when we moved there.
I guess he's about right.
About 1914 or '15.
Q:
What did you think of the first car you saw?
A:
(Mr.G) Well I thought it was a kinda funny looking outfit.
Q:
I guess they did look strange at first.
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, but I soon got used to 'em.
Q:
What was the first car you ever had?
A:
(Mr.G) Ah, the first 'un I ever owned was a '21 Ford, I believe.
Q:
You remember when you got that?
A:
(Mr.G) I got it off 'a Larry Lane.
�AOHP #66
Page 12
(Ms.G) She said when.
(Mr.G) Oh, no, I don't remember exactly when.
It musta' been
about 1920, something along that.
Q:
Did you enjoy riding around in the car?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, I liked to drive it.
T-Model Ford's what it was.
One seat.
Q:
Did you like it better than walking, and horse 'n buggy 'n all that?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, Yeah I liked it better 'n that.
where quicker and back.
Q:
any-
Go further.
What about some of the crafts in the area?
the curing, and the weaving.
A:
You could
Like the soapmaking,
Have you done much of that?
(Ms.G) I never did do any weaving.
to make all the soap that I used.
I've made a lot of Soap.
I used
Me and my mother used to make soap.
She
done a lot 'a spinning and carding, but she never did any weaving.
Q:
Did you ever learn to do any of the spinning?
A:
(Ms.G) No, I never did any spinning.
Q:
I've heard it's pretty hard to do.
A:
(Ms.G) It was for me.
I never did try, though, very much.
put us to doing other things since she did all that.
Mother
She never did teach
us.
(Mr.G) Yeah, people used to save all their ashes where they burnt the
wood to make lye to make soap out of.
Set off a hollow tree, make gums,
pour the ashes in 'em.
(Ms.G) Set 'em up on a big rock, let the rock be a little slant.
They'd pour water down in those ashes and set a crock down under there, my
mother did, to catch the drippings.
(Mr.G) They'd chisel 'em out a little channel, you know, that'd run
into the vessel.
Set 'em up there, pour water in 'em to get the lye.
(Ms.G) She never did buy canned lye.
(Mr.G) Why back then, people was the lyingest things you ever seen.
LAUGHTER.
�AOHP #66
Page
13
Q:
I guess they had to be.
A:
(Ms.G) My mother made her own vinegar and all that she used in the
pickles.
She never bought any.
Q:
Well, I didn't know you could make vinegar.
A:
(Ms.G) Well, she'd take a bunch of apple peelings.
exactly how she made it.
How do you do that?
I don't know
But she'd pour water over that, and let it set
'til it would work, ya know, and then she'd strain it.
Just have the
liquid part, ya know, and let it sit so much and she skim it.
know exactly how she did make it.
And, ooh, it was strong, too.
Q:
I don't
But she'd make some of the best vinegar.
It'd really pickle things.
What about mountain cures, like when somebody got sick, did you have
cures for different things?
A:
(Ms.G) Yes, we had some.
Q:
What were some of the cures you can remember?
A:
(Ms.G) Well, back then children had worms and you know they say now
they don't have 'em.
And Momma would always give garlic, ya know the heads
of garlic, or the bulbs, ya know, out of the ground.
And she'd beat that
up, andy put it on, . . . between a cloth, ya know, and put that on your
stomach.
And that would cure worms.
And then they was an herb that she
growed in the garden, she called rue.
that was good for worms.
I think it was spelled r-u-e.
And
And she would get that, and beat it up and put
it in a cloth, and tie it on the wrist.
Q:
My goodness, did it work?
A:
(Ms.G) Yes, it sure did.
It helped.
a sore throat she made onion poultice.
she do?
And then she made . . . . for
And, let's see now, what else did
She took wheat bran, I forget what else she put with it.
remember how they fixed that for something?
Do you
What was that for?
(Mr.G) I don't know.
(Ms.G) I remember she she used to take wheat bran and make some kind
of cure.
She did all kinds of things like that.
�AOHP #66
Page 14
We ' s never ever took to a doctor, or sent for a doctor or anything.
Anytime, except when the flu WcvS around so bad, in 1918.
That was the
only we ever had a doctor at my house that I remember.
Q:
Who was your doctor?
A:
(Ms.G) Uh, yes, Stanford did freeze his feet one time in the winter-
time.
They come big old holes in his heels, ya know.
in there.
Big old holes, back
And, old Dr. J. B. Hagaman lived at Todd at that time.
he come on horseback.
And we'd send for him and he'd come over nearly
every night. . . ride his horse over there to Meat Camp.
doctored Stanford's feet.
when we had the flu.
And
And then Dr. Bingham come.
He come and
Dr. Bob Bingham,
And Bessie had pneumonia when we had the flu.
Dr. Jones, J. W. Jones, I believe.
And
He was at Boone, and he come to see
her a time or two when she had pneumonia.
(Mr.G) And they all traveled on horseback then.
(Ms.G) Yeah, they had to ride horse back that far.
make all kinds of tea/ in the wintertime.
whether we's sick or not.
And Momma would
She made us drink it all along
She'd made boneset tea, and oh how bitter it was.
And when we had whooping cough she made chestnut leaf tea and I've drunk
quarts and quarts
of that.
Shti. made peneroil tea out of this big red. .
. .no, that's horseleaf that has big red top, but they was a kind of stuff
called peneroil, wasn't they?
(Mr.G) Uhmm - uh.
(Ms.G) She gathered that and dried it to make tea out of.
she made tea out of that.
And catnip,
All kinds of different things.
Q:
Well what was all that for?
A:
(Mr.G) Spicewood, sassafras
(Ms.G) Well now they said the spice wood was to thin your blood.
How they knew that it was too thick, I don't know that.
But they'd make
us drink it and I guess it didn't hurt us.
(Mr.G) They give you spicewood tea to break you out with the measles.
�AOHP #66
Page 15
And they used a lot of these hot teas, now, for measles.
they had to do for measles, back then, ya know.
tea to get you broke out.
Just use some of the hot
They used spicewood tea for measles and they used
the boneset tea for measles, too.
things.
That was all
And it was good for coughs and different
And they used polecat oil and groundhog oil for croupe.
Just
think of them terrible, horrible things you had to take back then.
And
Momma would get
(Mr.G) How'd you like to be greased with polecat oil?
Q:
I don't think I'd like that at all.
A:
(Ms.G) If you take the croupe, or a real deep cold, ya know, ooh,
that stinking stuff, they'd grease your chest with that, and take a real
flannel cloth, ya know.
They'd heat it, ya know, and put that thing on
your chest right here, ya know.
It'd break up pneumonia.
(Mr.G) People'd take a fit now if they had to be greased with it,
wouldn't they?
(Ms.G) I heard Ern Brown one time, tell about breaking up pneumonia
with those things.
(Ms.G). . . . she'd get a great big bottle, it'd hold about a quart
I guess.
And she would put sulfur in that, and fill it full of water, and
she'd shake that up, and make us drink that for something.
terrible.
Ooh, it was
And then she would get horseradish roots and cut that up and
put it in water, and make us drink the liquid off of that.
Something to
keep us from being sick, I don't know.
Q:
Did it keep you pretty healthy?
A:
(Ms.G) Yeah, we's never sick much.
(Mr.G) Yeah, they's never sick.
Healthiest set of Joneses I ever seen.
Q:
I guess they musta' worked, then.
A:
(Ms.G) You know, them old remedies was good.
an awful bad sore throat, I'se nearly grown.
I can remember having
And she put that onion poultice
on my throat, I couldn't hardly talk and it cured me.
...
�AOHP #66
Page 16
Oh, that old soggy-wet, nasty thing on my throat, it felt terrible.
them onions, shooool
And these old hen-an-chickens, ya know, like grows
out in the yard, hens an things, ya know.
them or not.
And
I'll show them to ya.
I don't know if you've ever seen
But they would get that, and would
get a cloth and beat 'em up, and then they'd squeeze that out in a spoon,
and put a drop or two of that in your ears for earache.
cure the earache.
And that'd sure
See, all this stuff grew for a purpose.
Back then people
knew what it was for and they used it for things like that.
(Mr.G) Nobody knows what it's fer anymore.
All folks knows now is
when a youngun gets sick, take it to the doctor.
(Ms.G) Now, what was that sassafras tea for?
That was just as red.
It made the purtiest little tea you've ever looked at.
Now we buy our tea
at the store.
Q:
I guess everybody does.
What does sassafras tea taste like?
A;
(Ms.G) I don't know hardly how to tell ya.
(Mr.G) You've eat sassafras candy, hadn't you?
Well it tastes
a bit like that.
(Ms.G) It was good-tasting.
wood tea wasn't too bad, either.
No, it wadn't a bad taste.
This spice-
But they'd make it for supper and drink
it at the table for supper of the nights.
(Mr.G) Ole boneset was the worst tea that 'uz ever made.
(Ms.G) Oh, it was bitter.
(Mr.G) I've a mind itis.
That must be what quinine's made out of.
I know it tastes a lot like quinine.
(Ms.G) But that's the way they doctored back then.
Never bought
no medicines
Q:
Well, they were making do with what they had?
A:
(Ms.G) And there was only one phone in the community as I know of.
That was Mr. Dan COok and Miss Bertha.
They had a phone, back then.
of these old-timey wall kinds, up on the wall.
a doctor always had to go there and call.
One
Anybody wanted to send for
�AOHP #66
(Mr.G)
Page 17
Andrew Cole used to run a store down there below where
Tabernacle was.
(Ms.G) Did he have a phone?
(Mr.G) No, he didn't have no phone.
(Ms.G) Well, I'se talking about the phone.
that had a phone.
Mr. Cook's the only one
Now us a-livin1 plum over on Meat Camp, if we wanted a
doctor that was the only way. . .
than walking all the way to Boone.
course that was quicker
But we had to walk plumb out here and
back, and Mr. Cook's was a pretty long way.
Greene's and Mr. Walter's that goes up to
Henry Miller and Etta used to live?
lived a way on up in a holler.
Ya know that road at John
the left there?
You know where
Well, it 'uz up that road.
Now we
Turn out into another road, right there you,
the road, you went a way on up in the holler, about a mile, . . .
(Mr.G) Yeah, a mile, I guess.
(Ms.G) From up in there, that was a long ways to walk.
Q:
Can either of you remember anything about any outlaws or badmen
around here?
A:
(Mr.G) Ah, they wasn't many of them.
boys that was out through here.
I've heard about them Allen
Shot up the court that time.
(Ms.G) I've heard older people than I am talk about the Allen boys
that
up the court.
(Mr.G) I've heard it said that old man Ed Miller brought 'em through
this country,
Q:
helping 'em get away.
I don't believe I've heard anything about that.
Do you know what
year that was?
A:
(Mr.G) Uh-uh, I don't know.
(Ms.G) No, see we just heard talk of that and didn't ask about the
year.
�AOHP #66
Q:
Page 18
Can you remember any folktales that you heard your parents or
grandparents tell?
Or legends?
A:
(Ms.G) I don't know.
I can't remember none.
Q:
What about things like planting in a certain sign?
Do you believe
in that?
A:
(Mr.G) Old people, all of 'em used that.
(Ms.G) Kinda go bit it yet, some.
(Mr.G) I believe in it myself, but I didn't plant in them signs.
..
.
I agree that the moon has a whole lot to do with it.
need to talk to Raleigh Williams.
You
He'd give ya something on this sign
business.
Q:
Can y'all remember much about the Depression?
Did it affect you
much?
A:
(Mr.G) Well, about all it was about that Depression was just big
men and all got their money outa the banks and let 'em go broke and nobody
could get no money to do nothing with and there wadn't nothing to do.
And stuff got so cheap ya could just buy a whole lot of stuff for nothing,
about it.
(Ms.G) But you couldn't get that little bit of money that it took
to buy it with as cheap as it was.
You just couldn't get that money.
(Mr.G) You couldn't pay a debt.
Q:
Prices were real low then, but you just couldn't get the money?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, back then you could buy a pair of overalls for seventy-
five cents.
(Ms.G) Now you spend five.
(Mr.G) Six.
Q:
Where were you living at the start of the Drpression?
A:
(Ms.G) We lived at P rkinsville, didn't we?
(Mr.G) Yeah.
Q:
Were you living on a farm?
�AOHP #66
Page 19
A:
(Mr.G) Un-uh.
Rented farm.
Q:
Did you raise everything you needed?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, raised plenty of grain, stuff like that.
And managed
to get hold of enough money to buy what we had to outa' the store.
But
we didn't have much.
(Ms.G) We didn't raise wheat, and make out own flour.
We had to
buy flour.
(Mr.G) Yes, we did raise some wheat when I lived at Perkinses,
Raised wheat 'n rye.
Buckwheat.
(Ms.G) Yeah, but we didn't make all our bread out of it.
I remember us buying some flour.
with that Truck, you
'Cause
Don't you remember when you hauled off
bought some flour?
But he could get a hundred
pounds for a dollar seventy-five, wasn't it?
(Mr.G) Yeah, a hundred pounds of flour fer a dollar and seventy-five
cents.
(Ms.G) And now, ten pounds cost almost that.
Not quite that much,
but it costs a dollar thirty-five, I think for just ten pounds.
And he'd
get a hundred pounds of flour for a dollar seventy-five.
Q:
How old were your children during the Depression?
A:
(Mr.G) We just had one.
(Ms.G) G. L. was born in '28.
Q:
How did the Depression change working conditions and getting a job?
Was it hard to find a job?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, I'd say it was.
Wadn't no jobs to get much.
(Ms.G) Well, everybody just farmed, you know.
Just weren't any jobs
much to get.
(Mr.G) And it hurt the people
that Depression year hurt the people
like Cleveland and places like that hurt worse than it did around here.
Cause the people there ya know had jobs.
jobs.
And it got hard for them to get
�AOHP #66
Page
20
(Ms.G) And we've heard a little talk about in Detroit, Michigan,
having an effect on the people up there.
and had nothing much to live on.
got out
can
And I heard one man say that this man
and sold, uh, can something
what was it?
They got out of work, ya know,
what was it?
Can openers or
You heard him tell it.
(Mr.G) I don't know if I did.
I forgot about it.
(Ms.G) Seem^like it was just can-openers.
Just any little thing.
He'd get out on the street and try to sell that to make a little money,
after he got out of a job, ya know, his work shut do^/n.
(Mr.G) Yeah, get anything ya could, and get out and sell it.
any way in the world to make a penny.
Just
Course there wasn't as much stealing
and bank-robbing and rogueing a going on today as there is.
Q:
Did you ever hear of any of the government projects, like WPA & CCC?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, they had some projects like that back then.
They didn't
amount to much, I don't think.
Q:
Do you remember when the banks closed?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, they closed when, uh, Roosevelt took office.
'em in the next day or two after he took office.
He closed
Ordered all banks closed.
(Ms.G) I remember hearing Mr. Charlie Hodge say that he acted the
quickest of any president we'd ever had.
(Mr.G) Then he got 'em a foothold or something some way, and everything began to pick up a little again.
a whole lot too.
The^he got us in war and that helped
And then we've stayed in war ever since.
since that day, since war was declared in '40.
Still a fightin' some of 'em now.
Never been out
Never been out of war yet.
Over there in Laos, they're fightin1, I
reckon some of the Americans is bombing yet.
Q:
Did the community change very much during the Depression?
businesses, and the churches, and the schools?
Like the
�AOHP #66
A:
Page 21
(Mr.G) No, un-uh.
(Ms.G) I don't think they's any difference in the schools and
the churches.
(Mr.G) They've changed a lot more since the Depression than they
had before.
(Ms.G) Than they did during the Depression, I'd say.
Q:
Who was hurt worst by the Depression?
A:
(Ms.G) I don't really know, do you?
(Mr.G) Well, I guess the businessman was hurt the worst.
they did get all the money
Even if
. What caused the Depression
was everybody drawing their money out of the bank.
go broke 'n they started drawing their money out.
This fellows was gonna
That's what caused it.
And then they wouldn't pass no bills or nothing that Hoover wanted to pass
so they couldn't do any better.
lican president.
It was a Democrat congress agin a Repub-
They held him down.
(MS.G) If a poor man was in debt, he was really hurt.
you couldn't get money enough to pay it.
Because
There just wasn't any money.
(Mr.G) Yeah, if a man owed anything
A man that didn't
owe nothing boys he 'uz in the best shape he'd ever been.
Everything 'uz
more on equalization then than it's ever been in my lifetime.
(Ms.G) But you just could not get any money.
Q:
Was there anything that was good about the Depression days?
A:
(Ms.G) Well, I guess there was some.
(Mr.G) What 'cha sold brought just as much according as what 'cha
had to buy.
It don't do it anymore.
What 'cha buy is more than what 'cha
sell.
Now they're fussing about such high prices of beef 'n stuff like
that.
And now's the only time the farmers have had a chance 'at raise
cattle to make a penny 'o money.
�AOHP #66
Q:
That's right.
It's unfair to them.
Page 22
I've heard a lot of people say
that families were closer during the Depression, and the communities were
closer.
A:
Do you think that's true.
(Mr,G) They was.
A whole lot closer than they 'air today.
(Ms.G) Yeah, that's true.
They'd work ten whole hours for a dollar
back then and get a dollar a day.
buy much with or to pay.
They just wouldn't get enough money to
Just didn't get much money.
Q:
What do you like best about the way life is today?
A:
(Mr.G) Eatin' 'n sleepin'.
Q:
Well you've been able to do that all along, haven't you?
A:
(Mr.G) Ah, yeah, I've done more sleepin' before.
I can't sleep
good no more.
Q:
Is there any thing you like about what life is like now?
A:
(Mr.G) Well, we didn't have no electric lights, or no power, or
electricity of no kine.
to pay.
Course now we got plenty of it hooked up and have
Nose agin the grindstone to pay our bills.
(Ms.G) Well, I know that still we enjoy the lights.
(Mr.G) We enjoy the little things we have now.
(Ms.G) And now we have a lot more conveniences than we used to have.
We have a electric stove, and refrigerator.
used to have.
We have all that that we didn't
That saves a lot of time, and it's nice.
(Mr.G) Used to have to do the washin; boil the clothes out in a ole
pot and bring 'em up on a rock 'n beat the dirt out of 'em with a stick.
Scrub it out with ya fists.
Lot more conveniences now.
(Ms.G) All the modern conveniences.
I like that part about it.
I have an automatic washer and that's easier.
Now
Used to have to scrub 'em
by hand.
(Mr.G) They's a awful sight o' lazy women, though.
Q:
Do you think it's because of all the conveniences?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, that's what caused a whole lot of it.
�AOHP #66
(Ms.G) That's what he says.
Q:
Page23
I guess that's the truth.
You'd think they'd have more time to visit their neighbors then,
wouldn't you?
A:
(Mr.G) Yeah, but they don't.
visit their neighbors.
They have to watch TV I reckon, can't
Some ole story on TV they want to see.
(Ms.G) Well, that's another convenience that we use.
Q:
What did you do before you had a television?
I guess you got to
visit your neighbors a lot more then, didn't you?
A:
(Ms.G) Well, I don't know that we did.
(Mr.G) All that time she has now to watch television she had to
work than and get her work all done.
(Ms.G) It took longer to get "cha work done.
And you had to work
so much harder you were so tired at night that we always went to bed at
nine o'clock.
tired.
Never stayed up later than that, cause everybody was so
You'd go to bed at nine o'clock 'n have to get up "n get a lot
done ready to start on a day's work.the next morning.
You just didn't
have too much time.
(Mr.G) You go anywhere to work, you had to be at work seven o'clock.
Work till six then of the evenin'. Get in ten hours.
(Ms.G) We had to get up earlier then than we do now.
And had to work
a lot harder.
(Mr.G) Boy, I think today, take it all the way around, is a lot better
time than it used to be.
Q:
It sure has changed a lot.
A:
(Mr.G) Well, I think people's got less care for one another, got
twice, three times as little care for one another as they had back then.
(Ms.G) Well, seems like we did get our work done more back then in
time to visit some durin' the day or through the week or somethin1.
anymore we hardly ever go off the place.
And
�AOHP #66
Page
24
(Mr,G) If I go a-fishin anymore I just have to leave something
undone 'n go on.
Cause there's always somethin' to do.
Back then I'd
have plenty o 1 time to go a-fishin' a day out of a week if I wanted to.
Course I wadn't trying to work on the job then.
I'se working the farm.
(Ms.G) Well, if you work at home you can quit anytime you want to and
go some place if you want to ro go a-fishin1.
ya just don't have the time.
But when you work on a job
Ya come in late, and its time to milk, and
time you eat supper, it's eight o'clock time we eat supper a lot o' nights.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-25
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mr. & Mrs. Lee Greene, June 11, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Lee Greene was born in Watauga County, North Carolina in 1904 and farmed all his life. Mrs. Greene was born in Meat Camp, North Carolina.
Mr. and Mrs. Greene talk about their education in a one-room schoolhouse. Mr. Greene talks about farming and the changes he has seen in the community, specifically in politics. Mrs. Greene explains how to make soap and homemade remedies. Both recall their methods of transportation as children and the transition of using cars. Mr. and Mrs. Greene also recollect memories of the Great Depression.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Clawson, Donna
Lee, Mr. and Mrs. Greene
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/11/1973
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Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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24 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape66_Mr&MrsLeeGreene_1973_06_11M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Boone, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century
Boone
cars
Chestnut Grove
Great Depression
homemade remedies
Lee Greene
Lenoir
Maple Springs
Meat Camp
Perkinsville
Politics
railroad
Sassafras Tea
schoolhouse
soap
Watauga County N.C.
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f3905df2ba703c574ba8227640ecbad0.pdf
444744f7916455869455aa54a4b58318
PDF Text
Text
AOHP #73
Page 1
This is an interview with Mrs. Elizabeth Hartley^ and
her son, William, by Karen Weaver for the Appalachian Oral
History Project in Triplett on June 11, 1973.
(in this transcript Mr. Hartley and "son" are the same person)
Q:
First I'd like for you to give me your name and age
please.
A:
Lizzie Hartley, Elizabeth Hartley and I'm 73.
Q:
Where were you born?
A:
ABout
Q:
Did it have a name?
a mile over up this holler.
Did it have a certain name for the
area?
A:
Arnold's Branch.
Q:
Arnold's Branch?
A:
Yeah, Arnold's Branch.
Q:
How many children were in your family?
A:
Seven.
Q:
How many brothers and sisters did you have?
A:
I had four sisters and two brothers.
Q:
What did your father do for an occupation?
A:
He farmed and worked the sawmill.
I've never heard of that.
�Q:
The sawmill?
Was it around this area?
A:
Yeah,rail around this area.
Q:
Did your mother-was your mother just a housewife?
A:
Yeah, my father was a carpenter.
Q:
Was he?
A:
Built houses.
Q:
So you had a farm?
A:
Yeah, yeah we had a farm.
Q:
Did the children have to help with the work around the farm?
A:
Yeah, the children helped with the work.
Q:
What did you have to do?
A:
Oh, we hoed corn, made a garden, and all such things as that,
What did he make?
Building, he worked at a carpenter's trade.
Is that where you get most of your food from?
raised cattle, chickens and hogs.
Q:
Was it hard work?
A:
Yeah, it was hard work.
Q:
How long did you have to work everyday?
A:
'Bout twelve hours every day.
People worked form sixvo1clock
till six o'clock for 60£ a day0
�Q:
So you rteally felt like you'd earned that, didif'^. you?
A:
Yeah and most everybody lived in a one roomed house.
Q:
The vtiole family?
A:
Yeah, amd we were raised right here in a little ol' log cabin
with-it had three little rooms.
One big one and two little ones.
There wasn't hardly anybody that even had a stove to cook on.
They cooked on fire.
Q:
You had to cook all your food on fire?
A:
Yes.
There wasn't anybody, only just- I bet there wasn't half
a doxon in our community that owned cookstoves.
Q:
Really?
Who were some of the families that had stoves?
A:
My grandmother had one and Mary Carroll had one.
That's the only
two I know of in the whole community at that time.
Q:
I bet living in a small house, did you have alot of fights with
your brothers and sisters?
A:
No, no.
I's the oldest girl in a family of seven and I took care
of the other young'uns.
Q:
Oh, so that's mainly what you had to do?
A:
Yeah.
�Q:
Did your brothers have to help around the house with the housework?
A:
No, they didn't do no housework.
Q:
They just farmed.
A:
Yeah and fixed wood and things like that.
Q:
Have you had any jobs?
A:
Nol
Q:
lfc>u just lived around here on the farm all
A:
Yeah, and people used to gather all kinds of herbs and dig roots
your life?
and all for a livin1.
Q:
Did you all used to do that?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
How much would you make?
A:
Oh you couldn,'t make nothing hardly.
You could a lots a kinds
of roots you could dig 'em and dry them and sell 'em for 2$ a
pound, and people would dry fruit and sell it for 2C a pound,
corn 50£ a bushel and coffee IOC a pound and sugar about 4C a
pound, cloth about If a yard.
Q:
Really?
Some of that cloth now is two and three dollars a yardl
�A:
Yeah.
Q:
What kind of roots and gerbs did you gather?
A:
There way May Apple, Blood Root, Black Cohosh, Blue and Stone
Root, and Quill Root.
Q:
Quill Weed?
A:
Quil Weed, yeah.
Hydrangeas, something that is on the root
list, hydrangeas was then.
Gather pine tips to make Christmas
roping and skin white pine bark.
Q:
What were some of these used for?
A:
Oh, it was all used for medicine.
Q:
Can you still sell them today?
A:
Oh, yeah.
It was 2C a pound.
(Mrs. Greer's neighbor) Beadwood leaves are 15C
a pound green now, 30C for dry.
Q?
What are they used for?
A:
Medicine
Q:
Any particular type of medicine?
A:
(Mrs. Greer) No, don't know what kind.
(Mrs. Hartley)
It's
Oxblood that they use for heart medicine, they sell it up here
at Boone, that medicine for heart trouble made o : of oxblood.
u|
It had a little purple bloom on it.
Star root and Gensang and
�lady's slipper, wild cherry bark, "sassyfat" root bark, that's a
tree.
Q:
What is lady's slipper used for, do you know?
A:
Some kind of medicine, I don't know what.
And Beth Root and
Indian Turnip, sprigmint and angelico.
Q:
I've heard some of these, but some I've never heard of before.
Like I have heard of ginsang and things like that.
They pay
a pretty good price for tinat, don't they?
A:
Dollar an ounce.
(Mrs. Greer)
get hardly nothing.
(son)
Pepper drinks that you but.
Q:
A:
It wasn't back then, you didn't
You take now, you know these Dr.
That's wild cherry flavor.
It is?
Yeah and this here root beer drinks that you buy?
That's sassafras
flavor.
Q:
It is?
I didn't know that.
So they use some of these herbs
for those drinks too?v>
A:
(Son) I think so.
(Mrs. Hartley)
Sassafras and you never see
no drink made with Beadwood do you?
Q:
Is that a herb or root or something?
A:
A little branch.
(Mrs. Greer) just pull the leaves off.
That's
�what we's telling you was 15C a pound, green now.
we are talking about spicewood..
(Mrs. Hartley) Mo,
Them there are beadwood leaves, they
are called witch hazel on the list.
Q:
Yeah, I have heard of that.
Did your family used to use any of
these for medicine, like when you could'nt get hold of a doctor?
A:
Oh, yeah.
Make tea out of them and catnip, catnip tea.
TMey
used to make catnip tea and boneset and lemon balm and another
kind we gathered, bugle weed, and wild horse mint.
What people
hepatitis 'now, wild cherry- tea from wild cherry bark will
cure that in two or -three days.
(Mrs. Greer)-
Lord a mercy, yeah.
I took my, one of my young'uns had it one time, had that for I
don't know how long and I took her to the doctor time after time
and she didn't get no better, just laid there like she's dead
or something.
Little girl came up and she was-well her and
Mizelle was A'sout the same age I reckon and she said, "I had that
stuff and Momma made me some wild cherry bark tea," and said,
"It cured me".
So I said wouldn't j^t, no harm in trying.
ANd
I went down here and got me some and fixed her some and in three
days she's well.
Q:
Did you tell the doctor what you had done?
A:
No, they wouldn^tbelieve you.
it.
He'd say some of his medicine done
�8
Q:
Wild cherry bark, is that what it is?
A:
Yeah (Mrs. Hartley)'
and Balm of Gilead buds you pick them.
I picked eleven pounds one time and took them to Boone and
got eleven dollars for it.
Q:
Really?
Do they fix. them in town or do they send them off
somewhere?
A:
They ship them.
Q:
Did you mother or grandmother used to have any home remedies,
like for Wtan4lvLkids were sick?
A:
Oh yeah, Catnip tea and wild cherry tea, boneset.
If I had to
die or drink boneset , I'd have to die because I couldn't swallow
that.
Q:
A:
That is a bitter thing, oh nasty.
(Mrs. Greer) Corn silk tea's
good for your kidney's if you can get it ciown, but getting it
down.
(Son)
Have you ever tasted any Quinine?
Q:
I have heard of it, but I have never tasted of it I don't think.
A:
(Mrs. Greer)
Well they used to give us quinine when we was little
for a high fever.
Q:
Really?
Did it cut it down?
�A:
Yeah, but it would run you crazy.
(Mrs. Hartley)
was assifidity, you buy it at the drugstore.
That there
You can put that
in a- put that in some kind ofaicokol, it is awful good medicine
for your stomach.
(Mrs. Greer) Yeah, for babies for the cholic.
(Mrs. Hartley) Now you can tell her what you make.
Q:
(To Sofl) What do you make?
A:
Well, few dancing dolls,-and churns, buckets, and lamps.
Things
of that nature.
Q:
How did you get started in doing these things?
Making these
things.
A:
Making them?
Q:
How did you get started making them?
A:
How did I get started?
Q:
Why did you get started making them?
A:
I picked it up myself.
Q:
You just wanted to start making them?
A:
Yeah, well in fact I think I must have been gifted to work
like that because that is what I like.
Q:
You sell these to craft shops?
�10
A:
Yeah to different places.
There's not alot to be made at it
because there is to many in it. Ocaasionally I build a little
machinery once in a while for woodwork as the drill, lathes,
grip saws, ^B^rfLuS. a"d things like that.
Q:
What kind of instruments do you have, do you own that you play?
A:
I have three right now, two guitars and a harmonica.
Q:
You have a dulcimer, don't you?
A:
(Mrs. Greer)
Yeah, he's gonna build him one.
one to build him one.
(Mr. Hartley))
not mine, I borrowed ri.t.
He borrowed that
The dulcimer , that's
I got it and I'm gonna get the pattern
off of it to build one for myself.
Q:
Oh, how long do you think it'll take to build one?
A:
Weil, now I wouldn't have the least idea, because I ha^re never
built one of those.
Q:
Well that makes sense.
A:
Well, no, I just work around home.
craft work.
Do you have a certain job you work at?
I do garden work, I do some
Well, occasionally I'll work away from home <X livrl^j
help somebody finish a house of something like that, but not very
often.
Q:
Oh, so you just stay around home and work mainly and carve all this
�11
stuff?
A:
Well, I have been playing the guitar and other instruments
like that.
I reckon I been where I could play an organ ever
since I coiald walk because they was an organ in the home when
I was born wasn't there?
Q:
Who played it?
A:
The whole family.
Q:
Where did you get it?
A:
(Mrs. Hartley)
(Mrs. Hartley) Yeah.
Roebuck then.
Ordered it fro'm Roebuck, Sears.
(Mr. Hartley)
I am gonna show you.
It was Sears
I have something in a few minutes
It is a 1908 Sears catalog.
Q:
Really?
Is it an original one?
A:
(Mrs. Hartley) Yeah.
Q:
Is it one that you all had?
A:
(Mr. Hartley) I found it advertland and I bought it.
In a few
minutes I'll get that out and we will go through it.
Q:
Okay.
What can you remember about the Depression?
A:
(Mrs. Hartley)
Well, I don't remember anything unusual that happened,
Alot of people suffered for something to live on and you would
see people- we lived in Tennessee part of the time at that time
and you would see whole wagon trains going down there and stop
�12
everywhere a wanting potatoes or something to live on.
We made
it pretty good through the Depression, but a lot of people suffered.
Q:
So it didn't affect you all as far as food?
A:
No, as far as food was concerned it didn't bother us.
Q:
Did any of the children leave home during the Depression to
find work?
A:
No.
Through the last Depression, now we went through two- one
±>out 1916 and one about 1930 and the first on I believe was the
worse than the last one.
We skinned pine bark and gathered
stuff and bought food we had to have and o£ course we always
put up a lot of food at home.
(Mr. Hartley) Well the way it
was, I remember just a little bit about it because I was very
young, but the pBople that owned right much property and owned
their own home where they could farm it, they made fairly wellthey growed allftheir own foor, but the people that rented or
depended on jobs- they suffered.
Q:
Were neighbors helpful to each other during this time?
Did
they help each other out a lot during the depression?
A:
Oh yes.
Some did- them that had anything divided with them that
didn't.
(Mr. Hartley)
Well it was about the same way then I
think it is now, there as some people that wouldn't work regardless,
(Mrs. Hartley) and we helped Virgil folks down here out.
had a big family.
They
�13
They didn't have - they owned their own home, but they didn't make
much.
We helped them out a lot.
We always kept hogs , we killed
hogs every fall, had plenty of meat, kept cows and had plenty of milk
and butter and things like that.
And then we growed a lot of corn
and potatoes and beans and all kinds of stuff like that.
Q:
What about -this first depression?
in 1916.
A:
I had never heard about it-
What can you remember about it?
I don't remember to much about that.
remember that at all can you Vear?
But these people- you can't
It was hitting pretty hard on
them, at that time, them that didn't have nothing to live on.
And we gathered pine bark and all such things as that in order
to buy the the things you can't raise like sugar and coffee,
salt and stuff like that.
(Mr. Hartley)
Made no difference
what you took to the store when they ran out of herbs at regular
how much, you never got no money for it.
If you get enough you
get it all up in groceries or whatever you needed.
They wrote
out what they called a due bill.
Q:
A what?
A:
(Mrs. Hartley) A due bill.
not a penny.
Wouldn't never give you no money,
People couldn't hardly get enough money to pay
their taxes at all.
Q:
What did they do when they couldn't pay their taxes?
A:
They just let them go until they could pay them.
�14
Q:
Just let it pile up kind of?
A:
Yeah, our tax never did.
We never did have our property advertised
for tax, but the last paper we got there's two whole pages people's
land advertised for tax.
Q:
They advertised it for sell for their tax.
A:
So they could pay their tax they were gonna sell their li'.nd—
A:
Mo they had to pay it with that.
Now a lot of people owns enough
that they pay their tax and never miss it, but they don't want to
you see.
(Mr. Hartley) What's the matter with times now they're
taxing people so high and they're getting sick of it.
(Mrs. Hartley)
They will tax them so high that they CQiA't pay it hardly.
Q:
You said that your father had a farm.
Did he ever take any of
his products into towns to sell?
A:
No not much, well they used to.
Used to take a yoke of oxsns and
a load of Irish potatoes to Lenoir.
Take them about three days to
go «Iown there and back and they would take them a load of Irish
potatoes down there to town and sell them and bring back a load of
flour.
Q:
How would he get it?
Would he get his flour like in
A:
Iibags just like it's bought now, cloth bags.
back a thousand ppund6 at one tirae.
I have seen him bring
�15
Q:
A thousand?
How long would it take you all to run through a
thousand pounds of flour?
A:
Oh, we didn't use it all.
He let other people have alot of it.
I would ruin before we could use a thousand pounds.
Q:
What else could he get besides flour?
When he took his produce
in what else could he bring hack?
A:
Well he never did bring anything , but flour.
Q:
Is that all?
A: .Yeah.
You see they had a little grocery store round here just
below the church and there's one down on the creek and you could
get all things like that, well we could have got flour, but I
remember Wivius_ 4iu/ju. wasn't no flour in the stores, nor no meal either,
Q:
Why not?
A:
They just didn't sell it then.
the flour mills to but flour.
They'd have to go to Lenoir to the
(Mr. Hartley) We raised wheat, lot
of wheat, had to take it to the mill and have it ground.
Q:
Did you have a lot of wheat?
A:
No, not too much.
Q:
Just enough to live off of?
A:
Yeah, we raised wheat and rye, cut it by hand.
�16
Cut it with an old-fashioned cradle.
I bet you've never seen one
one of them.
Q:
A:
I don't know whether I have or not.
Oh they had a blade that long and then a little bitty fingers
on it about- they's little bigger round than your finger and I
guess they was about 40 inches long.
You'd just take that
cradle, swing it around, get you a bundle and just pour it off
of it.
You'd get about a bundle ever lick.
and rye both.
I've bound wheat
Go along behind the cradle and tie it up in shocks
and let it dry and then stack it or thrash it- stack it and then
the thrashing machine come and thrashed it, after there got to
be any thrashing machines.
A lot of people thrashed it out by
hand.
Q:
How would you do that?
A:
Fixed them a thrasing floor and spread that our on it and just
beat that grain out of it.
Q:
Oh, I ' l l bet that was hard work, wasn't
A:
Yeah.
it?
Then you could hold it up and the wind was blowing it'd
blow every bit of the chaff and trash out of it and you just had
clean wheat.
Q:
Isn't there something in the "Bible about the wind blowing the chaff
away.
�17
A:
Yeah
Q:
With all the work around the farm, when did you all find time
to play?
A:
When you were children?
Oh we didn't play none.
I was having to tend to the young'uns
till I got too big to play.
Q:
So you never got to play?
A:
No, No.
Q:
Did your brothers and sisters ever have any little games that
I didn't play none.
No.
they used to play?
A:
Oh yeah.
Played ball and once in a while I could get time to
jump rope or something.
(Mr. Hartly)
Q:
What would you do?
A:
Veil, we'd get out and maybe we'd go somewhere there's a big
a big whole of water- go swimming, or we'd get out in a good
cool place in the voods, set around and talk, find us a good
grapevine to swing on and played with that.
Then after we ' <'
learned to play music we'd get together some of us over the
weekends, get back where it was cool at.
Maybe a whole crowd
of us gather around, play sing, and dance.
sometimes keep as many as four cows
(Mrs. Hartley) We'd
and it's whole lot of trouble
to take care of youTmilk and keep it clean.
�18
Q:
How would you go about doing it?
A:
Well, you'd just milk the cows and then strained your milk and
diurn, make butter.
And we kept four or five old hogs all the
time and we'd feed the hogs milk and now give $1.;35 a gallon
for milk.
Q:
Did you have any kind of ice box or something to keep your milk
and stuff in?
A:
No, but it kept in the spring.
Kept a race below the spring
water ran in it all ihe time.
Q:
Oh, I bet it kept a lot colder, too, didn't it?
A:
Yeah, it kept it good and cold.
We had a spring box down here
when we lived here and we kept our milk in the water.
(Mr.
Hartley) The way we'd do-that we'd get some kind of good wide
board, make a box*
Make it waterproof.
Go right down below
the spring, we'd dig out a space in that branch there that
would fi>^ it so the water would stand about eight inches deep
in the box -and the W^W- hjojld, flow through that box all the time
and that's what kept the milk and butter cold.
Q:
Looks like after a while the water would start to rot the box
or something.
A:
Oh, it won't run under the water at all.
�19
Q:
What the box. wouldn't be under water?
A:
No, not under water, no.
Q:
How long did you have to use it like this before you got an icebox1
A:
I guess about my whole lifetime up until about thirty years ago.
Q:
Really?
A:
About thirty of thirty-five years old.
I guess I was thirty-five,
maybe forty before we ever got refrigerator.
our first refrigerator in '55.
five years old then.
(Mr. Hartley) We got
(Mrs. Hartley) Well,X was fifty-
(Mr. Hartley)) Well, you see we didn't get
ttie electricity until '54, then '55 we got the refrigerator.
(Mrs. Hartley) We didn't have no electricity till about '54.
Q:
Iteally?
A:
(Mr. Hartley)
They didn't nobody around down in here have no
electric til right up around '53.
(Mrs. Hartley)
Electric wasn't
down in here til that time.
Q:
Wasn't that hard not having electricity?
A:
Well you never was used to it, you wouldn't miss it, if you never
knew nothing about it. But now if you were to go back and didn't
have electricity it would be rough.
It would be bad now.
never was a car down here til about '22, 1922.
down here.
There
Not even one car
�20
Q;
Really?
Do you remember if that is that the first time you had
ever seen a car?
A:
Oh, no.
I had rode in a car before that time.
Q:
Wiat did you think about the car when you first saw it?
A:
Oh, I didn't think much about it.
First car I was ever in was
Charlie Watson's, when Roxy and Deity, my two sisters went to
Boone to lave their tonsils out.
and I rode in that car.
taken out.
That was nineteen and eighteen
I went with them to KuVt- their tonsils
But the first car that was ever down in here was
Seymore Carroll's car and they never was a car down in here til
'22.
Q:
Why not?
Just nobody down here had one?
At
No they couldn't get in and out of here.
There wasn't no road.
Couldn't get in and out, no there wasn't no road they could drive on.
Q:
So that's how you traveled before you had a car?
A:
Yeah, walked.
I walSed.
I could walk then.
First time I ever went to Boone
I was eighteen years old before I ever went to Boone.
Q:
How long would it take you getting there wilking?
A:
Oh not long, not too long, no.
Deerfield, that way.
Went up to Jake's mountain through
�21
And the first time I ever went to Boone I went up there to my mothers
sisters, walked up there.
We got back home about two o'clock.
Q:
Did you?
And that is the first time that you had been to Boone?
A:
First time I ever went to Boone I was eighteen years old.
Q:
What did you think about it?
What did it look like when you were
eighteen, what did the town look like?
A:
I don't remember. cThere wasn't too many buildings there.
I remember
Roby Blackburn's, went into see him, she-her son had died and
she went up there to, have , be appointed administrator.
Roby Blackburn up there and he asked me how old I was.
And I saw
I told him
I was ei ghteen and he said I was old enough to begin to court
just a little bit but I wasn't old enough to get married yet.
Now most all the buildings that was up there at town, I would say
fourteen years ago, was torn down.
Q:
Really?
What kind of buildings were up there?
A:
Well, there's some of them was dwellings and some of them was
for business purposes.
Now up at the place where I bought my
first Gibson guitar I ever owned was tore down.
the theater is at?
You know that parking lot just above it?
Right there.
Q:
You know where
That is where it was?
The store?
�22
A:
Yeah, it belonged to Richard Greene.
Q:
Richard Greene?
A:
Yeah he owned it.
He owned the store?
He had his music store in the basement of
his house.'
Q:
And it/s torn down?
A:
He is dead now.
Did he go into another business or what?
I have got the guitar now yet, the one I bought
from him.
Q:
The very first one you bought?
A:
No, it is just the third one but it is the first Gibson.
Q:
Oh, -that is the kind that my brother has.
I think it is a Gibson.
When'did you get your first guitar?
A:
The first guitar I got was in, the first one that I ever owned
I got it in 1936.
Q:
Who did you get it from?
A:
Sears and Roebuck.
Q:
Did you?
A:
Uh huh.
Do you still have it?
I wished I had kept it. A guitar like it today costs
$32.00 and that one costs four dollars and thirty-nine cents.
�23
Q:
What kind was it.
A:
Silverstone.
Q:
Prices have certainly changed.
A:
(Mrs. Hartley) You could get a good cow for $15.00 but you had
to work thirty days to get that $15.00.
Q:
WMit, just doing any kind of work?
A:
Any kind of woirk that you done you just got 50C a day and you had
to go to work at 6:00 of the morning and work till 6:00 of the
evening, for 50C.
Q:
That is the most you could make was 50£?
A:
50C, 50C a day, and people got so they could get a dollar a day
for work and they thought they's going to town.
Women, when they
worked they got 25C a day and the woman would do just as much a«
the man, they got, a man got, 50C a day and that wasn't fair.
Q:
What kind of jobidid the women have to do?
A:
Oh, they would get and work in the fields hoeing corn and working
out like tbat.
Q:
What about the men, what did they do?
A:
They would do things like that too.
Worked in timber and the saw-
�24
mill, cut timber and logs, and I worked in the sawmill. They wasn't
no way to get lumber out of here only haul it out with,* team.
Couldn't
get in here with a truck.
Q:
Either oxen or horses?
A:
Oxens or horses.
Q:
Didn't you say that your father worked wi-fk the sawmill?
A:
Yes
Q:
Would he just cut up the lumber?
A:
He usually logged.
Q:
Logged?
A:
Pull logs into the sawmill out of the mountains.
What would he do, what do you mean by logging?
He'd pull them
with teams and he done a lot of carpenter work, too.
(Mr. Hartley)
He helped build every house that was built in the neighborhood,
until he died.
Q:
He was probably a pretty \\&rd worker then, pulling all that stuff.
A:
Yeah
Q:
How long has it been since you have made a quilt?
A:
I ain't been too long.
four years.
(Mrs. Greer-neighbor)
It's been about
(Mrs. Hartley) I guess it has since we made one.
But I've got some more to make cause I have got some to quilt.
�25
I ain't got nowhere to put them up to quilt.
Ain't got room in here
and it is too hot upstairs in the summer time and too cold in the
winter time.
Q:
Where did you used to quilt them?
A:
We'd quilt them right here but we didn't have as many things in
this room,
(Mrs. Hartley left the room to get a quilt to show me so I talked
to Mr. Hartley about school until she got back.)
Q:
How much schooling did you have?
A:
I went to the fourth grade and then I got sick end had to quit.
Q:
Do you remember your first year of school, the Very first day of
of school?
A:
Yeah, I didn't like it.
Q:
You didn't like it?
A:
Well, I didn't like my teacher awfully good.
Q:
Where did you go to school?
Ai
It was down here.
Why not?
I tell you, you know down yonder where come
down, you know where the church is around there?
Well, you know
where you come on down to that road you turn left to come straight
on down
this way?
Well you remember after you got on down, you
�26
remember that house that's setting over that creek?
Right there
was where the school house was at.
Q:
Really?
How long has it been since they have torn it down?
A:
They te.d the last school house there at the '40 flood.
(Mrs. Hartley returned with her quilt)
Q:
Oh, this is beautiful!
When did you make this one?
A:
It ain?.t been too long since we quilted this one.
Q:
Is this a certain pattern?
A:
Star. (Mr. Hartley)
If she wants to make a certain design in
her quilting, I help her figure her patterns out.
Q:
Do you make up the patterns?
A:
Yeah
Q:
I knew that there were some certain patterns to go by but I
didn't know that you all had made these up.
pretty.
A:
Oh, these are
Now, do you do these by machine or hand or what?
(Mrs. Hartley) I can do it by hand or by machine or either one,
It is quilted by hand.
Q:
Are you ging to go back to quilting?
A:
I don't know.
I don't know whether I could or not.
I've got
�27
I ain't hardly able to do nothing.
A:
(Hr. Hartley)
People used to talk about seeing such hard times
back then, I don't wonder at it.
Took everything they could
rake and scrape to buy buttons with to go on the clothes aad
they was made of brass, and brass never was cheap.
(Mrs. Hartley)
Well, people back then didn't know how to have nothing.
The land
vas worth three times as much as it is now and -they planted about
four hill of corn to the acre.
(Mr. Hartley)
They would plant
•the corn four foot apart each way.
Q:
They just didn't know?
A:
(Mrs. Hartley) Didn't know hosr to do it.
take you right now and show you a farm.
(A\r. Hartley) I can
It is in Ashe County
and it is a beautiful farm too and way back, it is a great big
farm about 300 acres was sold for one old hog rifle.
Swapped
for one rifle.
Q:
Really?
Whose farm'-is it?
A:
Cooper's, Cooper's farm.
(Mrs. Hartley) People used to buy all
all the land the land they wanted for $4.00 an-acre.
(Mrs. Hartley)
Sell any kind of old bluff for $2.00 an acre.
Q'i
Why do you think their has been such a drastic change in the prices
of land and everything>else?
A:
Well I don't know.
People has just got to be bigger dogs than
�28
they used to be I reckon.
(Mr. Hartley) and what's run the prices of
land up here in the mountains so much is the people from Florida and
also from the North coming back here, and what I think has really
happened is people has made so much money they either have a farm
or a lot that costs just so they got it.
See they could buy that
land cheaper than they could pay their income tax.
Q:
What do you all think about all these people coming from Florida
aid like from the North coming in and building houses and all these
condominiums and things on top of mountains?
A:
(Hrs. Hartley) Well, I don't exactly approve of that, do you?
(Mr. Hartley) Well, I will tell you what I think about that.
I think we should hold that more or less for the people in our
own state.
a home.
Now say for instance,say you wanted to go buy you
How much more would that home cost you on that account?
A 30, a $25.000 and a $30.000 home now ain't worth over $45.000.
And they will burn you. up building it.
And'the labor costs on
a home now is more than the material to build it.
people wfisn^t work like they used to did.
Because
And most of the contractors
when you build now, they build you a house at costs plus 10%.
Well they don't try to save nothing on that building material.
They don't try to save nothing on the lot.
Now they don't care
how long it takes them to build it, why the more they are going
to make.
self.
(Mrs. Hartley}
Well, built our house practically his
He cut every piece of framing in it but three.
it his self.
He built
�29
Q:
How long did it take you to build it?
A:
Well, in getting my^timber out and having it sawed, it took me a
little over a year.
See, I cut my own logs and had them sawed.
I built this houee for a little less thafa $22.00.
I am thinking
about, I don't know whether I will or not, I been thinking a little
bit about building me another one.
Me and a friend of mine are
going to buy a sawmill, in fact we are going to build us one
a piece.
Yeah, we are going to cut our own timber.
Q: Where would you build it?
A:
I would probably build right around here somewhere and my friends
gonna build one about a quarter of a mile on up above here.
Right
there's where I was born and raised.
Q:
You said awhile ago when I was talking to
you about school.
Do
you remember any experiences that you had in grade school?
A:
Well, not but a very few of them, Matter of fact, what I liked
about school, only it was different than it is now.
We run up with
a problem then in school that you didn't know what to do with, your
teacher, she would come to your seat and sit with you and explain
dt to you and help you, or my teachers would.
She would work with
the whole class like that as long as we had her for a teacher.
learned in school and learned and learned fast.
And my favorite
subject was arithmetic, but today we call it math.
Q:
How much schooling did you have Mrs. Hartley?
We
�30
A:
They just, when I was growing up they was just three months school.
Maybe I would get to go two or three days during the whole term.
never went to school none to amount to
nothing.
I
(Mrs. Greer) She
can out read any body you ever seen.
Q:
Did you teach yourself to read?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
You did?
A:
Well, •-! just got to reading every little thing I could come across.
How did you know how to teach yourself?
(Mrs. Greer)
there?
Q:
You see all them books and things stacked up across
She reads everything in the world.
That is really good.
What about your brothers and sisters, did
they get to go to school?
A:
Oh yeah, they went to school.
Q:
Did your parents go to school?
A:
Yeah, both of them could read and write.
Q:
How many years did £hey go?
A:
I don't know.
They didn't have no school much.
Back then children
didn't get to go to school, they had to work, and their wasn't
no compulsion school laws then.
Q:
I never went to school none hardly.
Do you know what they used'to do Hor discipline in the schools?
�31
A:
Used to whip them.
stand up.
Sometimes make them slay in.
Sometimes make them
I was going to school in an old log cabin, and one
boy, they made him stand up and he fainted.
He was a grown man
just about, Granville Tripplett.
Q:
Who was it?
A:
Qranvilfc Tripplett.
Q:
Do you say you went to school in a log cabin?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
Was it one room?
A:
fust one room and they didn't have no glass in them, just open
He is dead now.
windows and a big old fireplace, they kept a fire in it, big old
chimney, kept a fire in.
Q:
Who would keep the chimney supplied with wood?
A:
Well, the students would.
Yeah, they was woods all around it and
and they would cut the wood.
Q:, About how many students would be in the classroom?
A:
They would be about.
I've got a group here of pictures taken,
maybe I can find it.
Q:
What did they used to do for discdpLine when you went to school?
A:
(Mr. Hartley) Well, sometimes they would use a switch on them,
�32
sometimes a paddle or they'd rnark a ring out in the center of the
floor and make them stand on one foot for a certain length of time.
Q:
What if they would fall?
What would the teacher do if they lost
their balance?
A:
Send them back to their seat.
Then alot of times they would make
them mark a ring on the floor and make them hold their arm up
like that for a certain length of time, ot again go up and put a
dot on the board and make them stand on their tiptoes with their
nose in that dot on the chalkboard.
Q:
Just anything they could think of to do.
A:
Yeah.
But I will tell you though, the teacher I had was good to
them but she kept them under control.
Q:
Was she a strict teacher?
A:
Well, the same teacher I went to was my first grade teacher, second,
third and fourth grade as the grades come up for me, why she got up,
she come up and started teaching higher grades.,
Q:
Who was she?
A:
It was Ollie Triplett at that time, it is Ollie Thompson now.
Q:
So she would just move up with you all in the grades?
As you
would move up to another grade, she would move up?
A:
Well, see she would go to school herself when school was out.
She
�33
would build herself up to it,.
She'd teach around here and -then when
school was out she would go to college.
Q:
Well how would the teacher go about teaching if you were all
different ages?
A:
Would he teach you all at one time?
No, they had certain classes for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and
7th grades.
Q:
Would they all be in the same room?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
What would the other ages be doing when he was teaching another
age group?
A:
They was, they'd just call them up to class and have them recite
one class at a time.
Q:
What would the others be doing though?
A:
Be studying.
(Mr. Hartley)
I believe folks back then days too
Wis alot stricter with their younguns than they are now.
Back
then it is a possibility that they were too strict with their
family andnow it is a possibility that some of them are not strict
enough.
Don't you believe that a lot of this doping that has got
dnto the college and many different places, don't it start at the
students homes?
Q:
I couldn't really say.
�34
A:
(Mrs. Hartley) No, I don't really believe parents, if they know
that, I don'tAtheir parents would allow it. Of course alot of the
parents are dopes too.
(Mr. Hartley) Yeah, what I mean, I think
alot of times I believe these things begins at home.
Q:
Probably so.
Probably has the roots of it at home.
A:
Or at least in the hometown.
You see, the students that go to
college up there are from all over.
some cases their from other nations.
All over the nation and
I don't know you might not
agree but I think in America, I don't think they should allow
anybody in Boone to have schools but for theJAmerican students.
And you know that as messing up our nations too much and that is
giving other nations the chance to learn too much about our affairs,
Q:
You think they should stay in.their own nations and country and
go to their own schools?
A:
I think that we'd be better off.
Q:
That is interesting.
A:
This United Nations"4Keu have got I don't think too much of fchat.
Because we are paying for all of it and the other nations are
paying for none of it.
Q:
We are paying all the expenses.
You don't think that it is helping keep peace or something with
other countries or anything?
A:
There^ is no way to keep peace with other countries because we have
�35
done found, looks to me we've done found that out.
All they are
doing now, just trying to get everything out of us
that they can
and we are giving it to them.
Now I have had people that stayed in
i
Germany for three or four years andhow I had a cousin, her and her
husband stayed ovet there for four years and she told me that the
German people had any love for Americans they did not.
they hated our guts.
fact.
(Mrs. Hartley)
She said that
And I wouldn't doubt it that ain't about the
Now I think that our government authorities is
just doing the American people awful wrong.
They are taxing them out
of all reason in the world and then sending it to them people over seas
now that is not fair.
I don't think they should do that.
(Mr. Hartley)
Well, now you know when they settled this here peace treaty there in
Vietnam, whenithey went- and signed that peace treaty and they wanted to
i
give North Vietnam so many million dollars, two and and a half million,
I think, and South Vietnam two and a half million , I agree with you
that isn't fair, it isn't fair.
Q:
What, to give them the money?
A:
To give thm the money to build back with.
They was the ones that
started the war and they were the ones tho^" tore up everything.
Vfty not let them fix it back themselves.
Q:
Where would they get the money to fix :it back?
A:
(Mrs. Hartley)
Where did they get all the money to buy all that
equipment for the war?
�36
Q:
Well, that is right.
A:
(Mr. Hartley)
I think to let them whup theirselves, that would
teach them a leason.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-25
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William and Elizabeth Hartley, June 11, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Elizabeth Hartley was born in Arnold's Branch, North Carolina in 1900 and lived on a farm where her only job was to collect herbs and dig roots. William Hartley is the son of Elizabeth Hartley.
Mr. and Mrs. Hartley both talk about growing up and childhood activities such as picking herbs, but they both agreed their childhoods were mostly hard. Mr. Harley talks about playing instruments like the organ and his interest in music, while Mrs. Hartley discusses her hobby of quilting. They both reminisce about what it was like living through the Great Depression and such as using electricity for the first time in 1953 and seeing their first car in 1922.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Weaver, Karen
Hartle, William and Elizabeth
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/11/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
36 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape73_William&ElizabethHartley_1973_06_11M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Triplett, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Elizabeth Hartley
farming
Great Depression
herbs
homemade remedies
instruments
Quill Weed
quilt making
quilts
roots
sawmill
schoolhouse
Triplett
William Hartley
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b82b7c50d44c31b219ccc5f34376f72c.pdf
2ae609794a1902a7d0c69e515a224fb7
PDF Text
Text
AOHP
This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. San Jones on the Castle
Ford Road on June 12, 1973. The interview is with Mike HcNeely.
Question:
Mr. Jones, would you tell me something about the farm you
were born on?
Answer:
It was sixty-five acres, X think.
I've cleared it here the
last few years, all ray life nearly. There's about as much land as you
can see.
Done everything that can be done to get it to work.
Qt
How many were there in your family?
A:
Nine.
Q:
How many brothers and sisters?
A:
Five girls and four boys.
Q:
Your dad had a lot of help on that farm, didn't he?
A:
Yeah, when we got up big enough. Oh we just growed corn, potatoes,
mostly theni"—-beans, and peas
anything like they do now.
little stuff like that.
Didn't grow
Pumpkins, just grow all the pumpkins and
string it and string it up and put it on posts and dry it.
Q:
Did you have any livestock?
A:
Yeah, we had hogs, cow or two and hog or two.
Chickens, geese,
guineas.
Q:
Were the cows and chickens used for meat, or were they used for
milk and eggs?
A:
No, just milk and eggs mostly.
Q:
How about your hogs?
Did you let them run free or did you keep
them in pens?
A:
No, we had a big lot back then.
That's about a acre a lot for *.-•
them to run in.
Q:
I was reading somewhere that some of the farmers let their hogs
run wild.
A:
My dad used to have forty—-one year had forty head.
Cholera got
�2.
amongst them, they was out in the mountains.
six.
That cholera111 kill them right now.
All died but five or
I've never seen but one--
I remember seeing them bring one old big hog in.
that far, I guess, out of his mouth.
His tusks was stuck
We had to cover that fellow,
you stick your finger, he'd make a dive at you, just like a snake
a-grabbing.at you.
mouth and all.
He'd eat you up.
Ah, they had him tied all over,
I don't know how in the world they ever, caught him.
I was just a little bitty fellow then, but I can remember it.
That's
been sixty year ago or more.
Q:
How often did they have a kill?
A:
Every fall.
They'd go out and shoot them down, with old war rifles,
anywhere they could find them.
Q:
How was the meat back then?
Was it as good as it is today?
A:
Well, I don't believe there was as any a fat hog, unless they got
fat on mash, they used to get awful fat on mash, Chestnuts and acorns,
Lord, there used to be worlds of them.
I picked one day, part of a
day after a big snow, about ninety pounds of chestnuts.
Early fall
and they'd been dry, you know, and they wouldn't open up, well they'd
open, but they couldn't pull out.
bring them out.
They'd take damp, you know, to
They come a snow, four or five inches, and I was on
Buffalo, and it went off a little while and boy, I mean to you, trees,
there was two or three growed up in one bunch there.
bushel or more under that.
I got a half
Boy I got all I could carry and I never
got started on them.
Mrs. J.:
Me and my sister used to pick them up, had four or five ^
trees out in the field.
went to school.
We'd pick them up in the morning before we
Sometimes we'd get three bushels.
Dad always took
produce down around Salisbury and down in there, he'd take them down
there and sell them for us.
�3.
Q:
Did you all use them around the house any?
A:
Mrs. J.
(Chestnuts, oh we'd eat all we wanted and sold bushels of
them.
Mr. J.
I used to climb trees to shake them out.
Mrs. J.
We never did shake them out. We'd just pick them up as we
went to school of the morning,when they started falling.
Q:
Was there a lot of fruit around here--berries?
A:
Mrs J.
Yeah, there used to be all kinds of berries, and apples,
and cherries.
Mr. J.
Anymore you don't get many a meal, once in a while. .. .
Now you couldn't get a cherry ham shuck for years around here.
Mrs. J.
Cherry trees just about all died.
And blackberries seem
they blight anymore, you can't get none of them.
Mr. J.
Hadn't picked a blackberry in four or five year, I don't reckon.
Mrs.J.
Sometimes you can get some wild strawberries if they don't
freeze.
Lot of time there comes a freeze about the time they're
blooming.
Don't get to bloom anymore.
Q:
How about huckleberries?
At
Mrs. J.
Are there any around here?
Ah, none to amount to anything, they used to be a good
many, back in the mountains, you know.
Mr. J.
We got, was it ninety-six quarts or something---over a hundred
one year?
Mrs. J.
About ninetyfseven^quarts, but the field that had so many in
it's been cleaned off, bulldozed out.
Mr. J.
Timber
them out, killed too lots pine
and everything. We found a bush one time, I don't know, I wasn't
with them.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Had I went that day or not?
Yeah, you was off in the field here picking.
And one of my girls found it first, then one of my boys, and
she pickftd a gallon bucket! full and he finished his off on one bush.
�4.
The biggest huckleberries
it after that.
I always
there, you know.
Q:
I ever seen.
I never did see that many on
it up when I went over in
I think it's dead now, it's been destroyed.
How did they used to put up their fruits back in your mother's
day?
A:
Mrs. J.
Most the time they just canned them, cooked them and put
them in cans, sealed them.
Mr. J.
Now they made a lot of dried sweets too.
Mrs. J.
Of course apples, they dried a lot of apples, had dried
apples and they'd dry pumpkins and way on back before I ever remember, I was told, my mother told me how they used to dry their blackberries.
They dried them.
They dried their peanuts, string beans,
and they had what they called leather britches.
Mr. J.
They are good.
They'd just seal and dry them and put meat to them, they are
good.
Q:
How much of the crop that was on the farm was sold as produce and
how much of it did you use?
A:
Mr. J. We never sold---growed anything back then when I was a boy.
Mrs. J.
Since we
when,we lived out there, a lot of time,we growed
beans.
Mr* J.
We might have sold a few taters
Mrs. J.
We growed tobacco to sell and grain, what corn we put out,
we'd use it, have our own meal and so forth, take beans to market and
tobacco.
Mr. J.
We used to make seventy-five and seventy-six gallon* of molas-
ses here and never sold a one, we eat everyone of them.
My dad, after
we all left but my youngest brother and he would eat a snuff glass
full every morning, you know, for breakfast.
(chittling) molasses.
That's a half a pint of
�5,
Q:
Did you ever make maple syrup or maple sugar?
A:
Mr. J. I made a lot of maple sugar, I know how it's made ....
Well there was three pots, I think, one was an awful big one.
Just
out in the woods, had an old pole, and a fork in the pole laid in*it
and the lails across it. And we'd give out troughs, wooden troughs,
take . peck buckets and go around and dip it out.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Tapped the sugar trees, sugar maples.
My dad used a axe, cut a place right handy and hewed out a
little old thin strips about that wide, stuck in there and drive it
in there, you know, catch your water.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Makes a spout for the sap to run.
Sometimes it's clean, sometimes it'd just drip calmly, some
of it runs better than others.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
That boiling it down though.
I've boiled to twelve and one o'clock plenty of time.
Get
it down to pretty good syrup and bring it in home the next day or
night and boil it down to sugar.
best syrup I've ever eat.
I Hike that syrup, boy it's the
If I had a gallon I wouldn't take---wouldn't
sell it for a ten dollar bill, it'd cost more than that if a man
could get it. Dad made some for years, a little and sold it, they
was all gone, I understand it.
Q:
Did they use the sugar instead of white sugar?
A:
Mr. J.
No, sold it.
Q: How much did it bring?
&
: Mr. J.
I forget now.
Only good time was forty cents, fifty cents
a pound, thirty and forty, well the last he made he sold to a postmaster down there at old Jefferson, he got fifty or sixty cents or
more down there.
Mrs. J.
Now a---white sugar was cheaper than the maple sugar, buy
�6.
the white, would save money.
Mr. J.
Now there's a man over there on Buffalo, that would be,
he's a doctor, Sam was his name, Sao Perkins, and he tried to run it
on yarn strings, you know, to a-.-he had a outlet, you know, little
buildings where they bo He'd it down, you know,
It wouldn't run off
the hill, it'd just run a little, and just drip off, put out a lot
of money that-a-way.
Then he bought him a five-hundred or a thousand
peck buckets and had him a big trough, it was down there, and had a
hoXfe bored in there and they'd just carry it and pour it in that
trough and it run on down there where they made it, you know, they'd
catch it down there (in pots).
his buckets.
And somebody stole about every one of
I know he had five-hundred or more, ten quart buckets,
all along the row, somebody finally stole about everyone, if they
didn't
buckets.
Lord, they made hundreds of gallons of
syrup, they didn't make sugar, they just made syrup, you know, and
sold it.
Anybody with any sense a-tall would know that it wouldn't
run on yarn strings.
Q:
How about sawmilling around here?
A:
Mr. J.
That's pretty . . . .
I used to sawmill before I come to this country, I ain't
done so much since I come, well I've done some too.
1,'ve packed them
and I've rolled logs, burnt, cut the timber, ball-bust.
Mrs. J.
I ain't dome none of that, but I've cut timber.
Q:
How did you get the trees off the mountain, down to the mill?
A:
Mr. J.
Have a---easiest is by team.
Of course, I worked where
they had to ball boot them down, off of the
in Avery County some too.
River.
.
I've worked
That timber'd run eight miles up the Pigeon
But that brother seemed he was going broke so bad
two of them
one of them die"d just a while back.
twenty-seven years.
(Greg Scott)
'.ti "rr-r.-rc r:r":—i,-:':
there was
I worked for him
He sold out, bought them a truck,
�7.
went to hauling extract. Biggest extract plant that used to be down
there at Canton in the world.
used
Don't know if it's there or not, but
be there. Canton is eighteen miles, where our camp is
there.
Right on the Pigeon River.
Q: Did the railroad help any with the sawmilling?
A: Mr. J. Yes, it did. They hauled it in on trains, they got to the
right place where you loaded it. Yes, they did. And I worked
Creek where they hauled it all in for several miles.
get it off the mountain and to get on the train cars.
But you had to
Averaged
seventy-five thousand a day. Didn't matter what you taking in on
it.
That's more than they cut here in two or three months.
band mill.
That was
I handled lumber there twenty-seven feet long, twenty-
seven inches wide.
Of course, I handled most of the dry lumber,
loading cars. Old hemlock logs, splinters sticking out that far.
Had to use hand leathers and a apron here.
Hand leathers come in on
the inside of your hands here. Boy, it'd just ruin you.
Mrs. J. Ruin your hands if you got one of them hemlock splinters.
Mr. J. They cut little old "lathes," about two to two.and-a.half
inches wide and about four foot long, I think. And a eighth to a
quarter of an inch thick, and they are the hardest, and they are the
hardest things to bail. Boy, that's what they'd give a new man.
They test them out on that. Now if he could stand that, he could
stand anything.
Q:
Is this train that came down through Todd the same one that went
through Boone and up to Linville?
A: Mrs. J. No, this went back into Virginia.
Mr. J.
I don't know what they've stop that one from running
to Ashe County, have they, Jefferson, I don't think. No they had an
awful bunch out the other day. There was a string of coal here as
�8.
long as from here to that garage, just
. So big.
That's the way they get their coal in down there.
They sell it
cheaper than they do in Boone, cause they truck it in up there.
Mrs. J.
I don't know.
That train run up here a lot.
They hauled a
lot of extract back then, stuff like that.
Mr. J.
Lord, I boarded down in West Jefferson one time a while.
helped beat the first rock made them hardtops.
I
West Jefferson, Old
Jefferson, over through there.
Mrs.J.
After they took this up, the train just run from Abingdon to
West Jefferson.
Mr. J.
They used to come in, a heavy
load, there'd be two engines to it, to a load.
Why, it'd jar the whole town nearly.
It'd just chug-a-chug-&.
It would, about jar the town!
Mrs. Jones adds something which is inaudible.
0:
Did this train down here get washed out with the flood of '40?
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
No, it wasn't here then.
Taken up way back yonder.
It was took up before that time.
They discontinued it.
See that grade over there is on that grade is on railroad
grade there.
Prom Todd to Pleetwood.
it had a wide road.
Best grade in the state, if
It is, the longest stretch there in the state of
North Carolina.
Mrs. J.
W«ll, it ain't wide enough for a highway.
If it was wider,
it'd be a good road.
Mr. J.
Well, it's just twelve foot down below Brownwood, Fleetwood.
You can't hardly pass on it from there.
ThereJs places you can't.
And it's washed out, fell off like it is right over yonder all along
the highway down through there.
was a week ago, I reckon.
dangerous.
I went down there last Friday.
I'm afraid to ride on that road much.
It
It's
�9.
Q: Was the train in here during the depression, or was it stopped
before that too?
A:
Mr. J.
I don't know how long it's been took up.
It was way
before you and me was married, wasn't it? Yeah, and we've been
married for thirty-eight years.
Why it's been forty some years,
I guess.
Q: What was life like around here during the depression?
A: Mrs. J.
It was pretty tough, and pretty scrimpy.
You had to
make do with what you had.
Mr. J. Well, I lived on Three Top
worst depression
Mrs. J.
back in Ashe.
That there
that was before we was married.
. . . pulled leaves, gathered herbs--~anything to buy
what was necessary.
And the rest of it they just had to do with
what they had.
Q: What types of herbs and all did they gather?
A: Mrs. J.
Oh, they was different kinds.
wood leaves,
bark
Tfi'ey gathered beech-
, beechwood bark, and witchhazel
was what they call it. And they peeled Shawneehaw, black-
berry briar root . . . .
Mr. J. Sassafras roots . . . .
Mrs. J. Sassafras roots
fras big roots.
Shawneehaw
I've had to gather many of those sassatake out to the mountain, and pull
Shawneehaw.
Mr. J.
I've treked for a mile and a half, two mile, all I could
tie up and carry. Don't get big, really.
Mrs. J. Wild cherries, wild cherries.
Mr. J. Used to pick a lot of Balm of Gilead buds, but they got so
cheap now you can't make nothing.
Q:
How much do those herbs bring?
About thirty cents a pound.
�10.
At
Mrs. J.
pound.
Oh, some of them bring from a penny to three cents a
No, Shawneehaw or the bark from Shawneehaw root sometimes
up to eight, nine, ten cents.
Witchhazel leaves usually runs two
to three cents and the bark sometimes all the way from one to three.
Mr. J.
Beetwood leaves now bring as high as thirty-four cents or
more.
Of course, everything's so high, you can't buy nothing now.
Sold a lot of them for thirty-three or -four cents a pound.
Mrs. J.
So funny.
You could get a lot more for what little money
you did get out of the store.
Mr. J.
Anyone got that price then, they'd got rich.
I been a-buying
flour over yonder at 221, used to, 1 guess for two, three, or four
years at two dollars for Blue Ribbon.
Mrs. J.
A box of matches now cost you fifteen cents.
them here around for a .nickel.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Used to get
A big box of soda was a nickel.
Now it's $2.65.
A glass of snuff was a quarter. Plug of tobacco was---it run
about a quarter---200 to a quarter.
Q:
How about your salt?
A:- Mrs. J.
like that.
Salt run about eighty---about a cent a pound, something
We'd go buy rice.
Get rice for two or three cents a pound.
Box of Quaker Oats cost you maybe twenty to twenty-five cents.
Mr. J.
I bought some side meat for five cents before I was married
staying with my brother-in-law.
Q:
How much does it cost now?
A:
Mr. J.
Five cents a pound.
I looked down here at Jack's Grocery the other day, there's
a piece about that thick and so big
first meat, I don't know.
Seventy-five cents!
pound.
Mrs. J.
Meat's got ridiculous now.
, looks like
Seventy-five cents a
�11.
Q:
Was there a scarcity of jobs during the Depression?
A:
Mxz.J,
Mrs. J.
Yeah, it got awful scarce.
People that had anything to do, they just didn't have the
money to pay to have it done.
So they just had to do what they could
do theirselves and let the rest go.
Mr. J.
I remember two first checks or payrolls any monthly checks
I ever drawed was during the World War. I was just a boy, and wasn't
grown.
First one was $37.20 and the next one was $27.20.
Q:
What were you doing?
A:
Mr. J.
sand.
Doodling saw dust at a mill, cutting eight to ten thou-
Had a help awhile.
And I'd do that with a wheelbarrow by
myself, cutting eight and ten thousand feet lumber.
Now you talking
about a job, and that sun coming in on you. Couldn't stand it now, I
bet you. I think I got two dollars a day, I think.
Q:
Were there any government programs around here, in the Depression?
Like WPA, CCC.
A:
Mrs. J.
They had the WPA awhile.
mainly on it.
A lot of the men could work on
There was just so many people that needed work, they
couldn't work them all. But they did work some.
Mr. J.
Q:
I never did work at it, myself.
They were pretty hard days then, but do you remember any of the
good times during the Depression?
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Not too much.
I expect that all the way around many fared about as good then
as they do now. A lot of them fared just as good, if not better than
they do now. We have to work awful hard now-a-days to get by.
Back
then you had to work hard to 'get by, so you get just as much pleasure
out of it.
Mr. J.
I figure
one girl's been a-working three years, in June, out
�12.
at I.R.C.
And she's made—worked out more money than I bet I work
out in twenty years, twenty-five.
got more than I've seen of my own.
one today.
She's spent a fortune, she's still
She's got a lot of bonds, got
She's got money at the Building and Loan and at the bank,
and paid for a car.
Bought sewing machines, electric irons, and
enough to fill that car full several times.
Paid for a house, clothes,
and everything.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Q:
My iron.
We got the iron and give it to her.
That's right, you did.
But she got i1^ though.
What were the first electrical appliances you got?
A good one.
Do you remem-
ber?
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Yeah, no-no, it was an old refrigerator.
Refrigerator, and next was the washing machine.
That's it down yonder.
Kelvinator--that fellow called it
Kelvinator.
Q:
Yeah, that's what my grandmother called it.
A:
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Did you get a radio?
Yeah, we've got one.
We've got several.
Got two now, one's shot and the other
won't play at all, unless you cut it off---I
no more.
Transistor radio's what I use now.
Q:
What were some of the programs you listened to?
A:
Mr. J.
Q:
Yeah, some of the first ones.
A:
Mr. J.
On the radio?
Oh,"Amos and Andy."
Mrs. J. "Grand Ole Opry," "Amos and Andy."
Then sometimes on Sunday,
we'd get singing and preaching.
Q:
Where did y'all go to church?
A:
Mr. J.
Up here at the top of the mountain, now.
up there on Three Top, we went to Kraut.
When we lived
�13.
Q:
Was the church a pretty important part of your life when you were
growing up?
A:
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Yeah, it was.
Had to walk two or three mile off the mountain.
three-quarter of a mile nearly straight down.
them.
Paid no attention to it then.
Mrs. J.
else.
Well, there's
Big, deep snows on
That's the God's truth.
People used to really go to church better then than anytime
They got cars and they'll take off somewhere else, you know--
not stay at home.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
I walked sixteen to eighteen miles many times before . . . .
They used to---Sunday mornings would come, you'd have to get
up and work-—do what you have to do, and then get ready to go to
church, walk, and come back home.
Mr. J.
Fix you something to eat.
We'd used to ride the horses back or go in a wagon when I
was lust a boy.
know, walking.
I'd see old men coming when with the canes, you
And buggies, yeah, a lot of buggies.
I'd go, "What
in the world is the matter with that man, has to have a cane."
Blame, I've had to use one or two times, some crutches.
I've had to
use crutches.
Q:
How often did y'all have services?
A:
Mrs. J.
We usually have services once a month, a preaching service,
Sunday School every Sunday.
Q:
How about revivals?
A:
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Usually had one revival a year.
Now it's two.
And this man that runs the church, he has to
get somebody to do the preaching, so we can have two to pay now.
much money.
Too
Some type of helper, I don't care how--the pastor up
here weighs 274 pounds.
And he can preach, preach up a storm.
And
he has to get somebody else to do the preaching when we have a revival.
�14.
He's a big man.
Q:
Who is he?
A:
Mr. J.
Mr s. J.
Herbert Goodman.
Goodman.
Q:
How did that church get it*
A:
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
name?
Do you know?
No, I don't.
No, I don't know.
I've been in this country thirty-seven
years in March, I reckon.
Mrs. J.
That church has been established a long time.
I don't
know how it got its. name.
Mr. J.
Yes, that's been established maybe ninety years, I guess.
Well, they've had it a long time.
Q:
I guess Mr. Grogan up yonder would know.
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
He'd know a whole lot about it.
He might come near to telling you how long it's been/
He's been a member up there for years.
conversation about his brother.)
month.
(Tape goes into
He's got a birthday right next
He's eighty-seven or eighty-eight year old. I'll have to
look it up one of these days, in the Bible.
Bibles--tore all to pieces.
Now I mean ole-timey
Bible like that now, oh, a i n ' t a-telling
what it would bring, would it.
Mrs. J.
Yeah, those people out at the flea market offered $75.00,
didn't they?
Mr. J.
tore.
out.
There's plenty of
if it hadn't been
Two of my oldest brothers got in to it when the rest were
And they tore it all to pieces.
that big.
END OP SIDE 1
Oh, the back on it was nearly
�15.
A:
Mr. J.
That's nine years, I guess.
Got gone in ' 2 And
6.
I had to send off—my name wasn't in it.
brother had it Virginia.
Someone else had it.
My
Had to write on it there, and he sent
that pages that had his on it.
I' took it.
Don't know how I'd ever
got it that day.
Q:
Were there a lot of doctors in this area?
A:
Mr. J.
Q:
What did y'all do when you couldn't get a doctor?
A:
Mrs. J.
No.
Well, if you couldn't get one, you had to do the best
I could.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
There's one that lived up here for years.
There's one that lived right up the river here, and there's
one at'Boone that would go out on calls.
Mr. J.
He's dead now.
a good country doctor.
to.
One over on Creston---Three Top.
He was
He always went out, "hoss" back, or used
Finally got one at Todd.
Mrs. J.
Well, if you really had to have one, if you fine them at
home, well he'd go up the river here.
Mr. J,
People died then of appendicitis, and they just called it
indigestion or something; colic or something.
Yeah, it killed a
many a one, and they didn't know what was the matter with them.
Mrs. J.
Well, people used to---they wasn't no doctors around
handy, and they just had to doctor the best way they thought.
they got better, it's all right.
If
If they died, it had to be all
right, because it's all they had.
Mr. J.
They weren't experimenting like they are now.
live twenty-one days with double pneumonia.
Had a brother
Sight a man ever been
in that country.
Q:
What were some of the home remedies that your mother used?
�16.
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Used boneset
or my mother did, and catnip . . . .
Ole penny royal-— for colds or anything like that, they'd
make a tea out of penny royal.
And lots of times whenever a baby
was cross, wouldn't sleep, they'd take a catnip block, and make a
tea, and give it to the baby.
And they used camphor for other things.
Colds and colic or anything like that.
camphor in water .
Mr. J.
Give them a few drops of
.» .
We used to take two or three drops of camphor in a bowl of
milk, and give it to a baby and it'll ease him right now; or else
it used to for colic.
Mrs. J.
And for people who had chest colds or fevers, well, they'd
make a poultice from, ah, roast onions and mix sulphur or something
with them, and make a poultice and place it on their chest to break
up the fever.
Ah, there's so many of them there old remedies.
I
couldn't think of all they were.
Q:
What was sassafras tea used for?
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Yeah, people used to drink a lot of that.
Yeah, they used to drink that in the spring of the year
for a tonic.
Mr. J.
Yeah, those winters.
Mrs. J.
Yeah, and sometimes they'd drink it instead of drinking
coffee.
They'd make a tea out of it and drink it instead of coffee.
Mr. J.
It's cheaper now than coffee.
Mrs. J.
Ten ounces for a $1.75.
Back during the Depression, why, coffee was so high and
we's so low on money, we had to parch rye around here and make
coffee out of it.
Q:
Mr. Jones, you said your wife knew some of these old farm super-
stitions.
A:
Mr. J.
Could you two give me some of them?
I don't know.
I know I'd never like to plant nothing
�17.
when the moon points was up.
I don't know if there's anything
in it or not, but I never did likfe to.
I put out some onions one
time when the points were up, and I couldn't keep them in the
ground.
Mrs. J.
Superstition is a pair of cedar trees.
Little, ole cedar.
If you plant it, by the time it gets up big enough to shade a grave,
why you'll die.
Mr. J.
All kinds of stuff like that.
Why you can plant it, and my mother argued argued there was-~
something in it.
You planted corn or beans, put the heart down and
it won't hardly freeze.
And I tell you what.
You just go right
there and drop corn and beans and see if they ain't worlds of it—
lots of it ain't even hurt at all, and the other just cooked.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
I've seen some that-a-way, but I don't know . . . .
My mother tried
if she could.
she tried to plant a little on Good Friday
She always planted with the eye down, so she could
have some early beans.
something in that.
I tell you one thing, I believe there's
You can plant a whole row through there, and
there*d come a big frost there, and it'll kill some dead and won't
hurt some.
Mrs. J.
Used to plant you one to make you a few potatoes.
Plant
them about when the sun was in the moon, in the dark of the moon.
I heard once about, something about, there was a family asking when
was a good time to plant potatoes.
moon."
Told them 'bn the dark of the
So they thought that was getting out in the night time and
planting, using lanterns.
Mr. J.
You know there's a lot of people won't cut wood only at
certain times.
They won't walk after it. Yeah, they won't, at
certain times, cut their wood.
Q:
I was talking to a fellow the other day, yesterday, and he
�18.
said that he'd be putting the boards on the barn.
And if you put
them on when either the moon was growing or was full, it would bow
them out.
If the moon was shrinking, it would set them in there
tight.
A:
Mrs. J.
Well, I know there are times that you can put boards
on a barn, and them dirty things will just cup up.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
The moon points it up when it does that, I know.
And I have seen them on buildings that way where they|ve
just turned up.
Mr. J.
Ixwas madder—I couldn't even see hardly.
Those wouldn't
set in there at all.
Q:
Isn't there one about planting corn?
I think, if it's
if the
moon's full, you plant your corn, it'll grow higher.
A:
Mr.J.
Mrs. J.
No, it'll grow higher, I think, on the new moon.
I think that when the moon's new, if you plant your corn,
why it'll grow taller.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Yeah, some people plant in the moon.
Yeah, I always planted in the ground.
attention to it much.
it.
I never did payono
Wanted to plant something I always planted
Old-^people used---they used to have certain signs when they
planted everything.
You can get these here gardening books
and they still go by the signs in planting root crops, planting
you know, stuff that grows above ground.
attention to it.
I never did pay much
I just went and planted when I got ready to.
Q:
What did they use for fertilizer back yonder?
A:
Mrs. J.
Well their
the only fertilizer they used back then
was just the litter from the barn and stables, because they didn't
buy it, they didn't have it.
factured it
Well, back there I reckon they manu-
nowhere around here, where they could get it.
But they
�19.
used the litter from the barns, and in their big fields where they
put their corn or something like that, why they didn't use anything.
Most of the time, they just cleaned out new land.
They'd tend it
till it gets so it wouldn't make nothing and then they'd let it grow
up and try a new patch.
Wood land then
was
had a lot of, you know,
weeds had rotted on it so long; so long as it had lay it there.
just planted in it, after they cleaned it off.
They
But, when it wouldn't
make any more, why they'd let it change off and clear them off another
patch, and try it.
Q:
Did all the gardening with horse drawn stuff, didn't you?
A:
Well, they usually had a patch that they kept their stable litter
throwed on, that they did their gardening on.
Mite small.
My mom
and dad always used their stable litter a little on their garden.
She always had a pretty garden too.
Q:
Yeah, they didn't have tractors back then, did they?
A:
No, no, they used a team to do their plowing with, or oxen.
oxen a lot.
use a horse.
Used
And if they wanted anything cultivated, why, they had to
They have cultivated with oxen too.
I've drove oxens.
I don't like it.
Q:
How is it different from driving horses?
A:
Mrs. J.
Well, oxen can be so stubborn.
won't budge at all.
They won't budge
till they get ready to.
ever they get ready, then they'll go on.
you can make him go on.
They can just bug up and
When-
But a horse, most of the time,
One of them old oxen, when he's stuck, he's
just going to stay there til he's ready to go.
Q:
Did the farmers make the yokes for the oxen themselves?
A:
Mrs. J.
Yeah, some of them did.
knew how to make them made them.
that made them.
They used
some of them that
Maybe one person in the settlement
�20.
Q:
Did they have a blacksmith around here?
A:
Mrs. J.
Q:
Where did y'all go to school over here?
A:
Mrs. J.
at Trout.
I guess they did, I don't know where though.
Well, I went to school at Deep Gap, and he went to school
He lived back in Ashe, he's from Ashe,
Watauga County.
I went to school in Deep Gap.
I was born here in
Well, I first went to
school at the old schoo}, one room school building on
Creek.
x
And then they put the schools together and took out a lot of the one
room schools, and took out some of the county schools.
Mr. J.
seen.
I remember the first air
car and the first airplane I ever
I bet you don*t---can't remember that.
Q:
No.
Where was it?
A:
Mr. J.
Way back in Ashe County.
First airplane
(car)
I ever seen.
twelve or thirteen years old.
said, "all take a peek."
Up on what they call the "Bluff."
I was going to school---about
Went past the schoolhouse.
Rose something or another.
got to see it, it was gone out of sight.
stayed all after
Teacher
Before we all
After that he come back and
a little piece at church, I mean, schoolhouse.
We'd
go there and boy we thought that was the awfullest that had ever been.
We'd look at it, go over there, reach in it, look at that car.
Mrs. J.
I can't really remember the first car I ever seen, but 1 can
remember the first airplane I ever seen.
We were living in Virginia
at that time, and they's, gee I forget now whether there was five or
how many there was in the bunch.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Five or seven.
Went over in a bunch.
They was the first ones I can remem-
ber.
Q:
What did you think of them when you saw them?
A:
Mrs. J.
Oh, I thought that was something great.
All them airplanes,
�21.
I just don't remember the first car I ever seen.
Mr. J.
Well, I do.
Mrs. J.
I sort of remember one Dad ever bought.
He got an old
"scooter," strong armed as I am I'd run it up in the trees every time.
Q:
How much mileage did you get in those old cars?
A:
Mrs. J,
I don't really know.
I was too young really to know any-
thing about them.
Mr. J.
Didn't have any roads then.
Back in '27, with only gravel
roads, if you got thirty-five mile,you's flying.
boys taking me to see my girl.
road, and you were flying then.
I know.
One of the
Hit thirty-five mile on that old.gravel
They thought that was something.
Q:
How many miles to the gallon of gas?
A:
Mr. J.
I don't know.
There was-—according to what model it was,
I guess.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
I don't know myself . . . .
I don't remember for my life.
now.
They's quite a difference from
Now one son-in-law, he told our daughter here---he's got one of
them, I reckon you kinda call foreign made
1 reckon it's made in the
United States or it's made just like one of those foreign cars.
I
think he gets about thirty-five miles.(to the gallon)
Q:
I get about thirty-two on my Volkswagen.
age.
You were talking about courting.
That's pretty good mile-
What all did you do?
What did
you do on your dates?
A:
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Q:
I'd just go and sit all night is all I done.
We'd just sit and talk.
Stay till about eleven or twelve o' clock.
We never did go anywhere.
Go to bed.
He'd come visit, sit and talk.
I went everyday.
Did you ever go pick berries or cherries or work in the garden
�22.
together?
Mrs. J.
Mr. J.
Oh, we might have gone out together and pick cherries to eat.
They were going to clear out the pig-pen one time, but I didn't
stay long.
Mrs. J.
I come back.
I was scared of it.
I don't know, we might of got out and worked cutting cabbage
or something, anytime that we'd be a working.
Q:
Can y'all think of anything else that I haven't asked you about?
A:
Mr. J.
I don't reckon.
After you leave, I can think of a whole
lot.
Mrs. J.
Whenever a fellow's trying to think of something,
ever think of
Q:
it.
We appreciate you giving us this information.
he can't
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-24
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Sam Jones, June 12, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Sam Jones was born in Deep Gap, North Carolina around the early 1900s on a farm where he grew up. He worked at a sawmill.
Mr. Jones starts the interview talking about growing up on a farm. At this point his wife joins the interview, and they begin talking about berry-picking and produce. Mr. Jones also talks about working at the sawmill and the importance of the railroads in transportation. They both talk about their experiences with the Great Depression including topics of picking herbs, working, and church. Mr. and Mrs. Jones discuss the lack of doctors in the past and different home remedies they used. To end the conversation, the two recall the first time they saw a car and airplane.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
McNeely, Mike
Jones, Sam
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/12/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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22 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape84_SamJones_1973_06_12M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Todd, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Sawmill workers--North Carolina--Watauga County
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes
berry picking
Deep Gap
dried fruit
farming
Great Depression
herbs and roots
home rememdies
livestock
maple syrup
railroad
Sam Jones
sawmill
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7ed2a84c36978151df1164a8014b178d.pdf
6ec651ae55e6586851b3fe1eda47ff4e
PDF Text
Text
This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Project with Mrs.
Lelia Watson of Taylorsville, North Carolina. Mrs, Watts is my great aunt and
has lived in Taylorsville her whole life. The interview is by Mike McNeely
on June 9, 1$>73.
Qs Where and when were you born?
A: I was born in Taylorsville, February 10, 1883.
Q: Who were your parents?
Af
Fate Sloop and Luna Thompson Sloop.
Qj Okay, and your brothers and sisters?
A: Well, Ada Norris was my oldest one, then I come next, then Bertha Stevenson
next, and then Nell Sloop next. She's the last one,
Qs
Okay. What did your daddy do?
As
He was a carpenter.
Q: Carpenter. Did ya'll have a farm or anything?
As
Tes, he had a small farm out west here,
Qs With four girls in the family, who did the work on the farm?
At
Yeah, four girls - no, we didn't work on the farm we went to school and then
when we were old enough, Ada and myself got jobs in the store. We clerked in
the store until I married.
Q: I'm interested in the farm. >Jiat all did your daddy grow on the farm? Do
you remember?
As
Well, corn principally. And then garden. We had a garden with just vege-
tables in it, but on the farm we just raised corn.
Q: Did you have any livestock?
A: We had one horse. Yeah, how I did dread to work on the farm.
Q: What all did you have to do?
As
Hoe it, cut out weeds.
Q: You didn't have any tractors or anything back then, did you?
As
No, everything was done by horses.
�Q: Did your daddy have a plow?
Ai
Yes, he had a plow.
Q: What else did he have? Did he have a sled or anything he pulled behind it?
A: He had plows and hoes, and everything else that goes with a farm, you
know.
Q: Did you have any cows or any chickens?
As We had some chickens, but just a few.
Qt You didn't have telephones back then either, did you?
At
No, we didn't have telephones, and all the transportation we had was the
buggy, °r wagon, or walking,
Q: How often did you visit your relatives that didn't live in Taylorsville
that you had to go see?
A: Yes, we had some around Moravian Falls.
Q: Did you see 'em often?
A: No, not often.
Q: Okay, could you describe a particular day or a typical day on your farm?
What did you do when you were real small? What chores did you have to do?
A: While I lived at home, before I was married? Well, my father plowed up
something, we discovered it was an Indian pot! Yes, it was. The farm had
been an Indian camping ground out there, and he plowed up this pot. I don't
know who has it, your mother has it. Well, that is all that I can think of
that happened that was exciting that day. We were all excited over it , of
course.
In fact, we thought we'd find something more, but we didn't, just the
pot was all.
Q: Do you remember any stories that your daddy may have told you about the Indians V around here or do you remember any legends?
A: No, I don't remember any my daddy ever told. I can't think of them right now.
�Q: You know some stories about the Civil War though, don't you?
A: Well, Grandpa Sloop used to tell me something about the Civil War, but he
was a bushwacker. He was a bushwacker. And one day Harold asked me what was
a wackin1 the bushes. He heard that my grandfather was wackin1 the bushes
during the war. And he asked me what was wacking the bushes. And I said he
was bushwacker that was a hiding in the woods to keep from going to the war*
Then grandmother would tell me about the Yankees coming in and taking all her
corn out of the cribs, taking all her vegetables. When she has four children,
small children, they didn't leave them anything to eat what-so-ever.
Qt
Aunt Lelia was the lady who made the distress signal of the Eastern Star
to the men uptown* Didn't the come down to Aunt Mag's house and keep the
Yankees from taking her ham or something?
As
I can't remember that.
Q: Momma used to tell us about that»
A: Well, maybe therejs, I can't remember that.
Q: You said that later on you and your sister worked in the store...
A: Store. She worked in the dry good store for Thad Campbell, and I worked
in the furniture store for Uncle Jeff Allen. He ran the furniture store and
he had a lumber plant. I worked in there for him, and was working there when
I was married.
Q: Were you married before or during the Depression?
As
I was married in 1 0 |
9i.
Qs
That was about twenty-six years before the Depression.
Do you remember
the Depression?
At
Well, yes, very well. Yes, I do!
Qi
How did it change your life or what did you have to do?
As
Well, we just had to do without things that we really wanted.
�*At this point of the interview, a neighbor walks in and leaves a package.
Q:
Tell us about some of the hardships you had to go through during the
Depression?
A: Well, we had to do without sugar, we couldn't get sugar. They were...
Mr. Burgess across on the other street ran a cane mill, and we sweetened most
everything with molasses. We couldn't get sugar, and of course, Grandpa had
a few bee gums.
Wte had a little honey sometimes, but not very often.
Mostly
our sweets were molasses during that time,
Qj
You didn't have the money to buy stuff from the store much, did you?
A: No.
Q: What all did you have to make at home to make up for this?
A: We had to make everything we wore, nearly.
Q: How did you get the cloth to make that?
A: Well, our father purchased it somewhere, I don't know where.
Q: Did you wear a lot of hand-me-downs?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How long would an average dress last? How many children would it have to
go through?
As
Well, I don't know, T-e'd usually buy one dress a piece, a winter dress.
And that would last us all winter to go to church and Sunday School. Well,
then in the spring, we 'd store it and buy a summer dress which would have to
last us until fall. We get out the fall one and wore it several years.
Qt
You really had to make things last, didn't you?
Ai Xes, we did. It's different now, because I have to stand and look in the
closet for some thirty minutes to decide which dress to wear to Sunday School
nowo But times are different*
Q: During the Depression was the church mere the center of the community
�activities?
A:
Yes.
Q: Were there a lot of things that went on there?
A: Well, a good many. The church could buy such sugar and flour. The
flour was pretty rotten though, wasn't much good. But the church would get
that and then they would distribute it among the more needy. If they thought
you had any, they wouldn't give you any.
Q:
You couldn't have any surplus then.
You didn't have a real means of transportation, so what did you do for re-
creation around that time?
As
Well, I don't know. We went to Sunday School and church on Sunday, and
prayer meeting on Wednesday night. That's about all we had then.
Q:
Did you have a lot of community sings?
A: Not many.
Q:
How about the women? Did they get around and quilt?
As
No, well, some of them did, the church did.
They had quilts that members
would get together in the afternoons and quilt for the needy.
Q:
Did you have a lot of covered dish suppers or anything?
A: No, we didn't have any of those. We didn't have a kitchen in our church.
I can't tell you how many years we've had a kitchen in our church, but for
then we didn't serve the church.
Q: The Depression was a really hard time, but do you remember any of the
good days in the Depression?
As
fhere weren't any good ones.
Qs
Surely you can remember something good in the Depression?
A: Well, I can't recall it right now. Well, it m£ght have been good for us
in a way, but we couldn't see it right then,
Qs
Did it bring the families closer together or did it tend to pull them a-
�part?
A: Well, some families it did and some it separated. Some couldn't make it
together.
Q: Well, Earlier you said you and your sister went to school. Would you describe the school that you went to for me?
At
Yes, Professor White was our teacher. Professor Sharp was our teacher and
we were mostly in one room. He had most of the classes and he was a wonderful,
good old feller, but he was pretty strict. He didn't allow no courtin1 a going
on in his school. No! And sometimes we'd get together, you know, and he'd be
gone to his lunch, and when we'd see him a coming, we could see him a comin1,
why we'd disperse, we'd get out.
Qj What were some of the subjects you were taught?
A: Up to the seventh grades is as far as we wento
Qj What did you have to learn?
Aj Well, we had grammar, physiology, arithmetic, reading, and spelling.
Qj Did you have that little blue book, the Noah Webster Book?
As
No, we didn't have the blue-back speller. We had, I don't know what the
name of it was* I did have an old blue«-back speller here, but somebody stole
it.
Q: We found it today at Aunt Cat's. We found a lot of old things out there.
How many people were in the school? Do you remember?
A: Oh, my goodness, I couldn't tell you that. How many?
Everybody ±n the
county went to this one school then.
Q: Really, and it was one room?
A: Well, it was more than one room, but there were several teachers* Miss
Aussie Poole taught one room, Professor Sharp taught one, Professor White
taught two or three, and Miss Payne, I believe, taught toward the last that I
�went.
Q: What were the age groups of the kids? Were they all thirteen years old
or did they range from six to eighteen or something?
At
Around sixteen.
Qt
The average age?
At
Yes.
Qt
how long during one year did you go to school? Did you go a full nine
months?
At
^fes, we went full time.
Qs
How many years?
At
I don't know..My dad said that he wasn't able to send us to higher school.
Momma died when I was eight years old.
My oldest sister was twelve, Bertha was
six, and Nell was three, and he was left with us four girls here to raise. We
had it pretty tough.
Qt
Did you have any dances or anything at your schools?
At
Yeah, we had parties. l<foen we'd have a party, everybody in town was in-
vited. It's different now. They just have it in groups. But back then, when
anybody had a party, he invited everybody.
Qs What all happened at these parties? T^hat did you do?
At
Well, we played games and danced,
Qt
What types of dance^do you remember?
At
No. The twist, I think (assarted laughter) was the most thing I think we
could dance. Mostly just games different things, dorpping the handkerchief,
and weaving the thimble, and things like that, you know.
Qt
What type of music did you have to dance to?
At
We had a piano.
Qt
Did you. have someone who could really play it?
�At
Well, yes. We had it at a place where they had a piano. They could play
it, but if they didn't they could dance to that. Jeff Fortner had a French
harp. He blowed the French harp and we danced by it a lot. Jeff Fortner, he's
still living lives in Florence, South Carolina.
I was real sick one time, I
had neuralgia of the heart, and the doctor tole pappa not let anybody come in
my room atall and to be very quieto And Jeff come out to see me that evening
and the girls in the kitchen told him what the doctor had said. He said "Well
I'm going in there and peep at her anyway." Ao he came in there with his French
harp, "Home Sweet Home", and I was kind of doped, you know. When I woke up,
I didn't know whether I was in heaven or not. I thought that was the sweetest
music I'd ever heard.
Q:
You mentioned a doctor right then. How many doctors were in this area,
back when you were little?
At
Well, there was I reckon, Dr. Carson. I can remember Dr. Carson.
Q:
How about Dr. Crowson, when did he come?
Ai
Well he didn't come until later.
Q:
And Dr. Edwards?
As
Yeah, later.
Qs
Was medicine pretty plentiful?
Could the doctors get hold of it or did
people have to resort to making their own medicines?
A:
No. We usually had to go after him, ride a mule or horse. Dr. Carson had
a horse. Everybody knew his horse every where. It's like it is now. If the
ambulance goes out, everybody goes to the porch and wonders where it's going and
so forth. Well, when Dr. Carson would, we'd hear his horse's hoofs coming. We
knew it was Dr. Carson, and we'd all go to see where he was going to see who
was sick. There wasn't any telephone.
They couldn't do like they can now<> There
weren't any radios.
Q:
Did your mother use any wild herbs or anything for medicine?
�At
Yeah, She had a lot of wild herbs*
Q:
What did she use?
As
Well, sage,rue, and sweet basil.
Q:
What were some of the remedies?
A:
Well, I don't know. The sweet basil and the sage were used in meats, pre-
serving meatso They were the flavor for the meats. The rue. I don't know what
it was fors because if you touched it it made a blister, I guess.
Qt
You said you used that to preserve meats. How did:you preserve your other
foods?
A:
Well, we didn't you mean preserve it. . . how?
Q:
You didn't have a refrigerate^ or freezers or anything. What did you do?
A:
Well, we usually hung our milk in the well. We had a rope and a bucket,
and we'd hang it in the well. If we had butter or something like that, we'd
put it in a different bucket in the well. Then when we!d get ready to eat, we'd
draw them buckets up and drink our milk and eat our butter. But it was good
from the well. It kept very good.
QJ
How about your fruits and vegetables? Did you can or dry any?
As Yeah, we canned them and dried the most of 'em.
Qs
What are some of the things you dried?
A:
Well, apples , peaches, sweet potatoes. We dried most everything except
we'd can a few peaches.
Q:
You did a lot of canning and drying and stuff like that before electricity
came around right?
As
Yeah, well* we didn't have electricity for a long, long time.
Q:
When did it come into this area?
A:
Well, I don't know a just the date. I can't remember what date it was,
Q:
Do you remember around the « was it before or after the depression?
�10
A:
Oh, it was after the depression.
Q:
Was it before World War II?
A:
Yes, it was before World War II.
Q:
When did you get your first radio. Do you remember that? Was it long after
electricity had come in?
At
Well, I can't remember the first radio we had.
At
I do, 1932 because I listened to "Little Orphan Annie."
At
'32, well, she's gotta better head on her that I have.
Qt
How about your first car. Do you remember that?
At
Yes, I remember that, it was a Buick, yes. We lived on the farm* That was
after I was married. We lived on a farm, and Carl told me and the boys, if we'd
work good that summer and raise a crop of tobacco, why he'd buy us a car. So
the first crop of tobacco that we raised on our farm we used to buy a car with
it, a Buick. From Carl Offfs pa.
Qt
When the first cars came out, there weren't a lot of gas stations around
here. What did you do?
At
Well, we had one that we went to all the tine. It was one station we went
to most all the the time. Boys got it, Carl and I didn't.
Q:
Did you travel a lot more when you got your car?
As
Well, I didn't, because Carl wanted me to learn how to drive to take the
boys to schoo. We came into town one evening, we lived on a farm, and he had
me driving back. Just before we got to the garage, he'd made a new garage, but
he'd Just set the back end of it up, you know. He said "Now put your foot on
the brakes" and I slammed them on the gas and I just went through that down
through the field with that back of the sarace on top of my car, and 1 never
tried it any more. And Carl, when he started, when he'd want to slow up, he'd
hollar "Whoa! Whoa!". I think of a lot of little things that happened that way,
�11
but I wouldn't want to live my life over again.
Qs
Is there any area, though, if you could change it, or if you could go back
and live it over. Is there an area during your life you'd want to go back?
At
I can't think of any.
As
Yeah, when Sam and I were little.
As
Well, maybe, but they'd give a world of trouble. I don't know, I can't
recall a space in my married life that I'd love to live over. There's a lot I
wouldn't want to live over and I said the saddest time I ever had was when Sam
was killed. The happiest time that I ever had was when I saw Harold baptised.
Qs
That really meantrft lot to you? What's your philosophy of life?
A:
Well, I don't know what I would name.
Qs
Well, here you are ninety years old. What's make you live this long?
As
Well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you obey your parents you'll
live long. Well, I had to obey mine, for he was so strict on me, I had to.
I
can't—it might be some devil that I've loved in my past that I'm having to be
punished for.
Q:
Do you think hard work-
As
Yes, hard work had something to do with it.
I really worked hard in my
life.
Qs
Well, is there anything I haven't covered that you would like to tell us.
As
Don't think there is. You could ask me what my hobby was.
Qs
Okay, what's your hobby?
As
Cooking.
Qs
You cook for everybody in town, don't you?
As
Well, everybody that comes in eats a little something with me. I just love
to cook. I'll stand and roll our pie crust a half a day, and put them in the
freezer in till tomorrow, you know.
�12
But that's my hobby, cooking. If I'm sick, feel drowsy, or bad I go to the
kitchen and start cooking. I forget all about it and come our alright.
Q:
I noticed you'be got a wood stove in there and an electric one. Which
one do you like better?
A:
Wood stove,
Qs
Why?
As
Well, I don't know. I can cook everything on it at one time and the electric
I just have to turn a burner on here and a burner on there. I just make a fire
in the stove and it heats all over inside. Bake my pies in there. I don't bake
cakes in there, but I bake my pies in there. You should eat a piece of my banana bread before you leave to believe what I told.
�
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-24
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lelia Watson, June 9, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Lelia Watson was born in Taylorsville, North Carolina on February 10, 1883.
Ms. Watson talks about growing up on a farm. She also discusses the Great Depression and the lifestyle changes it brought. She then recollects memories from her childhood such as what is was like going to school and the new inventions from her youth like cars and airplanes. She also recalls her grandfather telling stories of the Civil War.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
McNeely, Mike
Watson, Lelia
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/9/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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12 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape70_LeliaWatson_1973_06_09M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Taylorsville, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Farm life--North Carolina--Taylorsville--20th century
Taylorsville (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Mountain life--North Carolina--Taylorsville--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Taylorsville
Civil War
farming
Great Depression
schoolhouse
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ff152edd4a927d0087a1a8a20281098e.pdf
7b1713a24c85f18fb4f3b9b6449b88ac
PDF Text
Text
This is an interview with Mr. Walter South for the Appalachian
Oral History Project by Karen Wards at Mr. South's house, on
June 12, 1973.
Q:
Where were you born Mr. South?
A:
I was born in Watauga County.
Q:
Have you lived here all of your life?
A:
All my life, yes.
Q:
Uhm...so you've lived in Tamarack.
A:
Yes.
Q:
How did TamalCack get started?
A: Uh, it was named after the timber, the Tamaracks.
Tamarack timber and it got its name from there.
The
Q: Do you remember some of the first families that lived
here?
A: Well my Grandpa was about one, and then my daddy.
Watson used to live in this county.
Q:
Eric
Uhm...what year were you born in?
A: 18 and 99.
Q:
What were your parents names?
A:
Jim South and Liddy South.
Q:
Where were they born?
A: Uh, my daddy was born here and uh my mother was born in
Beaver Dams.
Q:
How many children were in your family?
A:
8.
Q:
Do you know all their names and ages?
My daddy's family?
8.
A: Well, I know the names, but I don't know whether I can get
the ages right or not.
Q: OK, you can try.
A: Well. Jenny was the oldest girl and
mother had 6 girls and 2 boys. And the
Jenny. And she's dead, but I don't know
to her age or not. Uh, you mean now how
now, or when they passed away?
my daddy and my
oldest one was named
whether I get close
old they would be
�Q:
A:
Just whatever you can remember to tell me.
Then Lizzie, was the second girl, and she died about 3 years ago.
was 86 when she died.
And Jenny was the oldest but she died younger.
Florie was the third girl and she died at the age of about 55.
was the fourth and she died at the age of about 30.
She
And
Then Rosie
And uh Josie is next.
She lives in Tenn., she's 78 and Flory, lives over here at Track,; she's
about 60 I guess.
And then there comes on to Sam, my brother, and he died
at the age of 70-
And I guess I'm next.
I'm 74.
That's a long story.
Q:
That is.
What did your father do for a living?
A:
He farmed.
Q:
What kind of crops did he farm?
A:
Well, he didn't do very much farming, he put up a lot of hay, but he
didn't raise no big amount of crops; corn, wheat, and rye.
cattle and sheep.
He mostly raised
He always kept a big bunch of cattle and sheep.
made his livin off them.
Marty
But he did work on the farm oh, all of his life.
Q:
How much land did your family own?
A:
Well at one time my daddy owned, I believe it was 300 acres, and he
give it all to the children and myself.
He bought property out at that
Wilson, what's his name?
Q:
Curtis Wilson?
A:
No, it was another.
Anyhow, he bought a farm out there and he give it to
�Flory. And he bought a farm up here of Eric Wilson, and give it to Sam.
And then he utilizes so much land over here.
I bought a lot of land that he
had off in them and said Josie down $1000 dollars, and paid Jenny Reece,
my bony sister $1000.
0:
So you have a lot of land?
A:
Well, I did have, I've done like my daddy, I've divided it up among the
children. I once had 270 some acres.
at home.
It's all divided up and all living
Well, they all grown, the children is all makin their own way. All
of/them got more than I ever had. Money used to be hard to get. But you
can get money
now whenever, why it ain't nothin' now.
0:
Where did you attend school?
A:
Tamarack.
0:
How long did you go to school?
A:
I was in the seven grade when I quit.
Q:
What were the teachers like, back then?
A:
Well, they wasn't nothin' like they are now.
Down here, schoolhouse is torn down now.
I quit at 15 years old.
They wanted you to study
and wanted you to learn and if you didn't they'Id use the hickory and send
you home.
They, that's how come I quit, they uh Charles Hobson was the teacher.
He got toOhard on me and I wouldn't take it. Why I'd just ___
0:
Really?
A:
Thats right.
.
But is was my fault you know, he was a good teacher.
went to school with my sister, Rosie.
First school I ever went to.
I
�Q:
What subjects were taught?
A: Well, I can't hardly explain that, uh, geography, history, and, uh, I
can't think of the rest of 'em.
Q:
Did- your whole family attend school at one time or the other?
A:
My brother and sister.
Q:
How many went out of your family?
A: Well - uh- there was 7 years between me "n Sam.
with any of 'em but Floy.
Q:
What was the first job you ever held?
A:
Puttin' up hay and workin1 on a farm.
Q:
Have you held any other jobs beside that?
A:
No.
Q:
Just workin' on the farm.
A:
No, worked on it all my life.
Q:
What church did you attend?
A:
Elk Knob Baptist Church.
Q:
Never did go to school
Are there any other churches in this area?
A: Yeah, they's a church of Christ. I guess there's another church down
the road, but a that about fell through .
Q: Wher did most people, in this community go to church when you were
growing up?
A:
Elk Knob Baptist Church.
Q:
Has religion played an improtant part in your life, do you think?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
Can you tell me how?
A: Well, its a pretty hard to explain, but it's a better life if your
dependin' on the Lord and all. It's wonderful to think bein' saved we'll
have a better life here after. I would say been the most fullest thing here
in life. It's bein' a Christian. That's the way I've found it.
Q:
When you were growing up, were politics very important to the people?
A:
Not at all.
Q:
Can you remember any elections or any thing like that?
�A: Yeah, I can remember elections way back when I was just a boy.
They took it more like, just to have a good time, and gettin'
together is some of 'em would get drunk. Just , they didn't care
much who was elected.
Q:
What party did most people belong to around here?
A:
You mean uh...
Q:
Democrate or Republican.
A: Well the majority of this, well this township is Republican.
But ,uh, ain't no Democrats hardly in the township. I'Id say
8 or 10. There's a 100 and some Republicans. Yeah, the Demacrats
is hard to come by.
Q: What different kinds of transportation were used when you
were younger?
A:
Well, it was horseback and buggy.
Q:
Covered wagons, did they ever have that?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
Can you remember the first car that you saw?
A:
Yea.
Q: Do you remember when, what year, or how old you, were or anything?
A: No, don't. I just...I, just don't remember where it was at
or how long ago it was.
Q:
Can you remember how you felt about it when you first waw it?
A:
Well, it was kind of a surprixe, uh, kind of a wonder.
Q: Did they have bad men or outlaws when you were younger,growing
up?
A:
Yea.
Same as today.
Q:
Can you tell me anything about them?
A: Ueah- they was a family lived down a mile and a half up the
road here, sold liquor- they used to get in to drink, shoot, and
kill and then they'd get out and be enemies to each other and
go off and shoot one another. Some of them drive around the corner
of the house and shoot- they'd shoot and the others would shootsome of them got killed.
Q:
All because they were drunk?
A: Yup. I could tell you quite a bit about it- but itwouldn't
be necessary.
�Q:
If you want to tell me...
A: Well this family sold liquor from Kentucky in kegs and sold
liquor down here. And people would go over there to get their
liquor, ya know. There's a fella that come from Kentucky, well,
there was two of 'em. And they took up in this country and one
of them married here. This family was pretty rough and there was
something agoing on that they didn't like between his daddy and his
son and they shot one of 'em. And one of them got well and the
other one died. So outside of that, that was cleared up when
I was fifteen, ten or fifteen years old and they all had vanished
away and they got out of this country and died out. It's been a
very good country since outside of a few spats and little falling
outs, there's been a few kills but as of for now, it's, it's
an average country.
Q: Can you think of any legends that have been passed down to
you?
A:
Q:
Well, I don't know...
How did the deression affect you and your family?
A.
Boy, it got the best of us.
Q:
Was it really bad?
A: Yea. Like to went broke and my neighbors did, they went
lum broke, it was an awful time. I bought cattle, calves at
17.00 a head just before the depression and kept them two years
and sold them for $17.00 a head. Ted and them andgrazed them for
two years and when they got when they got fat my neighbor bought
some from some old man in South Carolina that fed cattle in
the winter on straw, that's what they told me, and he brought
'em up here and I sold him a bunch of cattle at $17.00 a head,
that weighed 900 pounds. And so when you don't make anything for
two years you get down and out, and that's the way it was.
?
Q:
Urn, you were workin' on the farm during the depression?
A: Yeah. See, I raised my wheat and bread and taters, about
everything I lived off of in the depression. I had a few things
you know, ate with groceries. It really scared us all bad. I
hired a man in here to come to work for me to cut briars and
bushes and told him I didn't have no money to pay him. I couldn't
hire him and said he, I had to, I had to, I told him I'd pay
him coin in corn and they worked for a half a bushel of corn a
day, cuttin' bushes righr in back of the hollar here, it was
Frank Andrews and Bud Johnson, and Wes
, and everyone and I
paid 'em off in corn that did already had made, but I didn't pay
no money for them to have it. It was a good while that it went
that away.
Q:
Did you always have enough food?
A: Yea, never have been
of food, milk, butter, meat, eggs,
always lived good but you know, it takes a little money along
�with it and we couldn't get it.
Q:
Do you remember any programs such as the WPA or CCC?
A:
Back in mu young days?
Q:
Yea.
A:
I didn't hear tell of anything like that.
Q:
Did you hear of it later.
A: Yea, I heard of it for several years, but there wasn't anything like that when I was young.
Q:
Can you tell me anything about it?
A:
No, I can't.
Q: During the depression were families closer to each other or
did the conditions couse hard feelings between them?
A: Well, I don't know htat it made very much difference. We
got along about the same. Of course when people's down and out
they wouldn't yodel and all like they would.
Q: Did people go to church as much, more, or less during the
depression?
A:
About the same.
Q: It didn't affect the attendance?
the schools?
How did the depression affect
A: Well, I don't know outside of our own community schools.
It would run just about the same. That is the schools out here.
I know if they were affedted any other way or not.
Q: Who was the most affected by the depression in your community,
like farmers, people like that?
A:
It affected the farmers more in this part of the country.
Q: I want to ask you about when you were raising your family.
Did you think it was the father's place in helping raising children?
A: Yea, sure did and she helped me. We didn't have, there wasn't
much doctoring going on only the herbs and stuff that we made at
home. The doctors was far and wide at home and don't know whether
there was such a thing as penicillin or anything like that, they
just give you a few drugs to ease you and the suffering or you
just had to buck it out yourself, mostly.
Q: Did you have doctors, around.'.in here and you know doctors
that would come to see you or anything?
A:
Yea, there's doctors around here, most doctors we depend on
�were Dr. Robinson and Dr. Long.
Q: I heard that Dr. Robinson was a real rough doctor.
him to treat you.?
A:
Yea.
Q:
Did you ever have
Was he pretty rough?
A: Well, not too rough- the roughest one I ever had was Dr.
^ He
come in this country when I was about twenty or twenty one years old, and
he had his office over here at Zionville. And I had,ssee this scar there and
one there? I had my throuat swelled up - knots under each side here. And
they festered up and uh needed to be opened and I went over there to him
and he took an old dull knife and went through 'em and opened 'em up and I
told him, I said, "Doc I can't stand that, that knife's too dull. Ain't
so;anuch dangerous otherwise. Never knowed it from another.
Q:
What kind of home remedies did they have?
A:
I didn't understand...
Q:
What kind of home remedies did they have when you were a boy?
A: Our parents? Well, they had catnip tea for babies when they was first
born. Fed on catnip tea, sweeten it, and uh fed on that about day, couple
of days, then put on their breast. And penny royal tea; it was
it
was good for colds and we used that and cherry bark, they get it and boil
it down to a syrup and it was good for sore throats. Care a sore throat
or a cough. That was about the most remedies that we used.
A: Did they ever have anything that you wore all winter long to keep from
getting colds that you wore around your neck?
Q: Seems like I remember somebody wearin' the nome was Fitity, don't know,
something like bees was or something. I've heard of people wearin' that
round their neck way back then.
A:
Were people very superstitious over here back then?
A: Yeah, right quite a bit.
cats across the road.
Q:
They went by signs in winter and
black
What other kinds of signs did they go by?
A: They went altogether by signs of moon, sign on the calendar to plant
stuff and do a lot of thins.
Q:
Well, did it seem to work?
A: Well, they thought it did but, since I got grown and on my own I didn't
pay no attention to it.
Q:
Well what kind of farmin' utensils did y'all use?
�A: Well, it was an old horse drawn plow and home-made shovel plow and a
hoe, pitchfork and a mowin' scythe. That was our tools. Rough.
Q: What about houses? Y'know some of them have got real intricate little
markins' and stuff on them. What kind of tools would the carpenters use on
them to make them so pretty?
A: Well they had home-made tools and my brother, when he was young then he
made a toung and groove thing to match hardwood together, y'know, a tool
that could do that, press together. And Erick Wilson, he had tools like that
and they could take and cut figures and fix 'em up pretty, y'know. But it
took a long time to do it, it was a. slow process but they got it done.
Q:
When did electricity first come in to this area?
A:
Oh, let me see, 35 years ago.
Q:
What was the first electrical appliance you got?
A:
Uh, washing machine.
Q:
Really?
Bet you liked that didn't you?
A:
to ask her about electricity. Things like the refrigerator, deep freeze and uh televisions come in. I don't know when so it was
awful handy but, gettin' awful expensive now.
Q:
What company was it?
The same one as now?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
Which one was that? RCA?
A:
Uh-huh.
Q: Well, who were some of the most outstanding people in this community
when you were a young boy? Most influencial families?
A: When I was a boy? Well, I'd say, uh, my daddy and my uncle, Frank
South, lives up here, Eric Wilson, that was my daddy's brother-in-law, and
Alaway Maines, was my wifes friend for a
.
Q: Well, do you know where most of these people come from that moved in here?
What if they were Scotch-Irish or English or anything?
A: Well I don't know, just where all they came from the first settlers
in here was my grandaddy.
Q:
So they didn't have any strays around in here?
A:
No, not that I can remember.
Q:
You said you knew, the hashing, what is that?
A:
It's a peak.
Q:
Is it a mountain?
9
No, in this part of the country.
�A: Yeah, I know but its called by Raskins, it's at the foot of Peak Mountain.
Q: Who named that do you know?
A: A Peak? No I don't.
Q: Did anybody from your family?
A: No. Now they could have but a family of niggers lived up there a year,
raised a great family young.
0: Well then how did people around here feel about that, then?
A: Well they, I guess societies together worked together and my daddy hired
him to work for him. Frank South, my uncle, he hired 'em to work for him.
But they wasn't considered as blackes, they paid 'em money and they had a home.
They's a nigger graveyard up there.
0: What if just that family, they were just there? Or are there more in the
county?
A: Well, they uh, this family was a-co-livin' kinda with me. And the older
one was, he was the daddy of
and he lived up there 'till he died.
dreg's family. Ouite a few niggers buried up there.
Q: Eo you know what their names are? Their last name.?
A: Greg, (sp.?)
Q: Did you know where they come from to settle here?
A: No I don't.
0: Are any of them still livin'?
A: I, believe they all dead. They left up here, this last family that was
raised up here, only got up to, some of 'em about 50. Anywhere from 35 to 50
and 60 years old, they left, in this country up here. And just strode off
from town. Yeah they's one of 'em named Walt Red and Tom Red and Jim Red and
Phip Red. I don't believe they had any girls. So, uh, they was just considered
in this country, in my growin1 up, until they left here. They wasn't any
difference from them and a white person, just all'sociated together, the best
family of niggers you ever want to, uh, they didn't bother nobody, they wouldn't
get drunk, they wouldn't, uh, just nice people, I know of Phip Red, he attended
church down here and got baptized.
Q: Wo they went to the whiter-church down here?
A: Yeah.
0: Is their old home place still up there or is it rotted down?
A: No it's gone.
40 years.
Buildings all gone.
I guess it's been gone here 'round
0: Well, do you know if there's any markers up there for the grave site?
10
�A: I wouldn't say, I ain't been there in uh, ever since I was a boy. They
got it fenced off near
. They tell me
. Jim ran one
of the oldest one. He went west and he come back in that boat was in "50.
And they call it the Reeny (sp.?) graveyard. That was his mother's name,
Reeny. And Wesley then cause
. 1 know old man Anderson, he was a
nigger. All I know 'bout him was he "was called "Old Man Anderson" or
He lived, in California, and he'd come in this country and hunt for gold".
Hunt for a mine up and down the creeks. And he was a fine old nigger he,
he's been here and doing well. He was an old man when I was a young one.
And he'd bring 'em grapes, great big boxes of grapes and uh, California grapes,
And he'd stay with 'em up here, uh 2, 3 weeks and he'd go back to California.
0: Did he ever find any gold?
A: Nope.
Q: Has there ever been any gold found around in here?
A: Not that I know of.
0: No precious minerals here, huh?
A:
(laughing) No.
11
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-24
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Walter South, June 12, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Walter South was born in Watauga County, North Carolina in 1899 on a small farm.
Mr. South's interview is mostly about his childhood and his memories from when he was younger.He talks briefly about Tamarack's history and his grandfather being one of the first people to settle there. Some topics he mentions while talking about his childhood include church, politics, the Great Depression, and home remedies. He also recalls memories of the only minority family he can remember growing up.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ward, Karen
South, Walter
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6/12/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
11 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape78_WalterSouth_1973_06_12M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Todd, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
church
Great Depression
home remedies
Politics
Tamarack
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/74f1927f4e7baa04fde1ffc3c674d110.pdf
2cee9b841fba1c3ba7b9ee2453db9121
PDF Text
Text
Tape # 46
Outline
I.
Name and birthplace of parents.
II.
Parents schooling.
III.
Occupation.
IV.
Churches in the area.
V.
Community
A. Formation.
B. Change.
C. Decision makers.
D. Minority groups
E. Population.
VI.
Politics
A. Change.
VII.
Transportation
A. Layout of roads and railroads
B. Building of railroads.
C. First cars.
VIII.
Mountain crafts and customs.
A. Courting.
IX.
Outlaws
X.
Legends, folktales, supersitions
XI.
Depression
XII.
Shull's Mill
XIII.
Honorary degree of Kentucky Colonel.
�This is an interview with Mr. N.D. Shull for the Appalachian Oral
History Project by Bill Brinkley on March 27, 1973.
Q: Could you give me the name and birthplace of your parents?
A: Well, my father was born here at Shull's Mill. My mother was born
over on Cove Creek.
Q:
What were their names?
A: R. L. was my father's name; Mamie D. Graybeal was my mother's name.
Q: Did you have any brothers and sisters?
A: None alive.
Q: But you did have some?
A: Two.
Q: What were their names?
A: They died when they was small. William, and I forget the other one's name.
Q: How much schooling did your parents have?
A: I have no idea.
Q: What is your occupation?
A: Engineer.
�3.
Q: When you lived in this area, what sorts of churches were here? Have
you lived here all your life?
A: Well, I was born here and stayed here until I was about 18.
Q: What sorts of churches were in this area when you came back, or in
the earlier days?
A: Well, in the early days the same churches were here except Hebron
bought out the Presbyterian Church.
The other churches were the same.
Q: To which of these churches did most of the people belong?
A: Well, they were divided.
There was no particular preference.
Q: How do you think that they have changed over the years, if any?
A: I can't see any change.
They still have the same beliefs they had earlier.
Q: HOT# did this community get its name?
A: Four brothers came over, one of them settled here, had a mill out here
on the river, and it was called Shull's Mill.
Q: How was it formed in the first place, just because of this mill?
that reason?
A: That's where it got its name.
Q: How do you think the community has changed over the years?
For
�4.
A: It was strictly a rural farming area, and now it's gone into a summer
resort area.
Q: Who have been the community decision makers? Mainly the Shulls
or other people involved also?
A: I don't see that there was any one person that was the community
decision maker. It was all handled through the individuals that owned the
property.
They made their own decisions.
Q: Are there any minority groups in the community?
A: None.
Q: Has the population changed greatly in the community?
A: Well, since Hound Ears and some of the other resorts being here, of
course the population has increased. But if you discount that, the population
is about the same as it was when I was growing up.
Q: On politics*
do you have any memoires of specific elections, local
or state?
A: When I was growing up, they always had a big fight, and everybody got
about half drunk, that's about all I remember. Republicans wouldn't vote
a Democrat ticket, or vice versa.
Q: How do you think the politics have changed over the years?
�5.
A: I don't think it's as clean now as it was; it's a dirty bunch of politics,
a dirty bunch of politicians.
Q: How did the people get around in the community? What sort of
transportation did they use?
A: Horse, buggy, foot.
Q: Where did the roads and the railroads run?
A; Well, the railroads ran from Johnson City to Boone, that was Tweetsie.
With the exception of this new 105 they built in here a few years ago, the old
roads were essentially in the same location, but they weren't hard surface.
They were just dirt roads, the first ones, maintained by county labor.
Q: When were the railroads built?
A: About 1914.
Q: Do you remember the first cars in the community?
A: Well, my father had about the first car that was right in this community.
It was, I believe, a 1914 Ford. That's somewhere around '20 I guess, '18 or
'20 when he got it.
Q: Do you know very much about the mountain crafts and customs?
Soapmaking, curing, weaving, anything like that?
A: No.
�6.
Q: Are there any mountain cures that you are familiar with?
A: Well, there's an awful lot of them that people use and talk about, but
I'm not familiar with any of them.
I believe in a good ol' doctor.
Q: How would you compare the courting then and now? Dating back then?
A: Well, back then you either walked or rode a horse. You usually stayed
at the girl's home, didn't wander around much. Now, I don't do any
courting now. Looks to me like they're all over the country.
Q: It was more back then, you traveled in groups didn't you? If you went
to the girl's house, weren't you more with a group than like now it seems
that they're alone so much?
A: No, I'd say you were more by yourself back then.
Q: I was thinking that maybe a group of them got toether in a horse and
buggy, went somewhere, picnicking or something like that?
A: Oh, well. When you got together, that's right, on an outing or something,
you traveled in groups.
When you went courting, you went by yourself. You
had no competition or interference.
Q: Bedtime was pretty early back then wasn't it?
A: They sure was, but getting-up time was a lot earlier.
Q: Were there any badmen back in the area during that time?
�7.
A: Oh, sure. We had a few that were considered a little wild, but I don't
imagine they would be considered bad now.
Q: No outlaws ?
A: Not in this particular section that I know of.
Q: Are there any folktales and legends associated with this community, or
any superstitions that were maybe passed down from your father or mother?
A: There's a lot of tales about how tought living was back then, as far as
legends, I don't know .
DEPRESSION
Q: When did it start as best you can remember?
A: Started in the early '30's, maybe '29.
Q: How many years did it last?
A: Well, I believe you could feel it up until the war started in,the '40's,
'41.
Course, it wasn't as bad in the latter part of the 30's as it was in the
early part.
Q: Were you living here at the start of the Depression?
A: No.
Q: Where were you living then?
A: Tennessee.
�Q: How many were in your family?
A: There was just my mother, my father, and myself.
Q: Did anyone else live with you? Any boarders?
A: No.
Q: What was the effect of the Depression on your family?
A: Well, you just didn't have the money t o spend, didn't buy the clothes
and food that you normally would. You made do with what you had.
Q: How did it effect the working conditions?
A: There was no work to be found.
Q: Were you working during the Depression?
A: No, I was in school when it started. I got out in '32.
Q: Did you ever hear of any government projects, WPA, CCC?
A: Yes, had WPA here, and CCC camp was not too far from here. It wasn't
in Watauga County.
Q: What did they do exactly?
A: Most of the WPA workers worked on the roads, including the roads,
highways; and the CCC Boys were brought in and taught how to survive in the
wilderness. They built trails, and I think they grew some timber.
�9.
Q: When did the welfare program, start?
A: Are you still speaking of WPA, CCC. . . ?
Q: Yes, something like that.
A.
Best I recall, it was in the early '30's.
Q: Was any of your family affected by those projects?
A: No.
Q: Was there a scarcity of food?
A: Not in this particular section, because as I said before, this was strictly
a rural area and all the local families raised their own food.
Q: What crops did you raise?
A: Oh, outside the gardens which we raised everything we ate, main crops
were cabbage and potatoes.
Q: Did you have any animals?
A: Well, we always kept a cow. I had a pony when I was growing up.
dogs, normal animals on a farm.
Q: Were prices higher or lower during the Depression.?
A: Prices were lower.
Cats,
�10.
Q: Were there any new ways of making money that arose, such as maybe people
took up making moonshine, gathering ginseng?
A: Well, I don't know if people took it up or not, but that's been going on in
this section of the country as far back as I can remember. And it's still
going on.
Q: Do you remember any of the banks closing?
A: I remember when the President closed the banks in order to get them
reorganized back then.
Q: Do you remember any in this area particularly that closed?
A: Well, they were all closed for a few days.
Q: What was the community reaction to the banks closing?
A: Oh, I guess, it was pretty evenly divided. Some thought it would never
open again, and others agreed with the President's idea.
Q: What date was it that the banks closed?
A: '31, 1931, I'm sure.
Q: How was the community affected?
Was there any profound effect, or
did things stay pretty much the same?
A: Things stayed pretty much the same.
�11.
Q: Was there anyone that you blamed for the collapse of the banks?
A: The bank's didn't collapse here. The banks were financially in good
shape. And as for other sections of the country, I have no idea, poor
management, I guess.
Q: Did the schools change during the Depression?
A: Yes, they did. We had better buildings, we built some new buildings.
Course, I believe we had better schools.
Q: How about the churches and businesses, the country stores?
A: They was about the same.
Q: What do you think caused the Depression?
A: Well, looked like the stock market was in pretty bad shape; too many
people over bought, caught up with them and from that it snowballed into
a very uncomfortable situation.
Q: Who was hurt worst by the Depression?
A: Small investors.
Q: Do you think there was anything particularly good about the Depression days?
A: Well, at least during the Depression days a dollar was worth a dollar,
and if you wanted somebody to work for you or if you wanted to work for
somebody else, you could put out a day's work.
All in all, I think our economy
�12.
was healthier than it is now.
Q: How is life different today than from the Depression, such as the family
life, education, etc. ?
A: Back then, all you had was a newspaper and a radio, and the newspaper
got here when the mailman rode his horse. Now, you got television, good
automobiles to travel, and naturally you have a little more interest in what
is going on.
Q: What do you like best about today's way of living?
A: Retirement.
Q: If you could change anything about the way they are now, what would
that be?
A: I'm not too fond of these subsidies that the government hands out for not
growing some crops.
I believe that the old law of supply and demand would
help us a lot.
Q: What I want to get you to do now is to tell me all about Shull's Mill if
you would? The founding.
It's effect on the community. The history of it.
A: Well, the founding and the effect of the community, I don't know anything
about that. My grandfather was the postmaster back in 1879. That's a grant
that was given to him.
The fact that the railroad came in here, and then
Whiting Lumber Co. moved in here, and cut out all the timber on Grandfather.
�13.
Had a little narrow gauge railroad that went up to Boone's Fork, hauled logs
in on that.
Plants were just across the river from here. They had quite an
operation here. At one time they were here. We had a hospital, summer
drug store, a big commissary, theatre, I think it was 500 families.
large, or larger than Boone at that particular time.
It was
Course, after the
timber supply was depleted on Grandfather Mountain, they all moved to
Butler. Families, of course, migrated out of here. There's very few of
them left, in this section now. The older families that were here before the
mill, their descendants are here.
Q: What was the mill exactly?
A: Just a lumber mill. They made lathes, you know wooden lathes, that they
used in place of metal lathes. They were strictly a lumber mill. They cut
timber in the woods, hauled it in, ran it through the mill. Then they dried
it and sized it and shipped it out.
Q: Did they ship it all over the United States, or just to North Carolina?
A: It was shipped out of here on Tweetsie.
After it got to Johnson City, I
don't know where it went.
Q: What is the Kentucky Colonel over there? I noticed that last time I was
in here.
A: My wife and I both were appointed Kentucky Colonels a few years ago.
�14.
Q: What is that exactly?
A: It's an honorary appointment that you get from the Governor of Kentucky.
Q: What is that for?
A: It's just one of those honorary commissions that they give you.
Q: You got it from the Governor of Kentucky? How did you manage that?
A: Well, it was managed through my sister-in-law. She's the one who had
the influence.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with N.D. Shull, March 27, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
N.D. Shull was born in Shull's Mills, North Carolina and worked as an engineer throughout his life. Mr. Shull and his wife were appointed Kentucky Colonels through the Kentucky governor.
Mr. Shull describes his childhood including topics such as church, politics, and transportation, specifically cars and the railroad. Mr. Shull lived in Tennessee with his parents during the Great Depression, and describes what that was like. He also explains the background of Shull's Mill.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brinkley, Bill
Shull, N.D.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
3/27/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
14 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape46_NDShull_1973_03_27M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Boone, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--History
automobiles
cars
Great Depression
Kentucky Colonels
Politics
railroad
religion
Shull's Mill
transportation
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9bb5d38ab2ac7dd93afbd2e75437af12.pdf
a3788980e9f9bb0a5b8458d91eaa225f
PDF Text
Text
Tape # 49
Outline
Ira Donald Shull
I.
Birthplace, farm, 5th generation of Shulls, jobs, farming.
II.
Birth, house born in.
III.
Brothers and sisters.
IV.
Property
V.
Food.
VI.
Roads and transportation.
VII.
Storing food.
VIII.
Feather beds, shuck mattresses, straw beds.
IX.
Flax, hand looms, weaving.
X.
School.
XL
Civil War stories, slaves.
XII.
Jobs, leaving home, Washington.
XIII.
Churches.
XIV.
Valle Crucis - name.
XV.
Community, leaders, size, population.
XVI.
Elections, politics.
XVII.
Mail.
XVIII.
Badmen.
XIX.
Doctors, medicines, herbs, roots.
XX.
Unions
XXI. News.
XXII.
Telephones.
�Tape #50.
Outline
Ira Don Shull
I. Telephones
II.
Farming, gambling in farming.
III.
Sheep.
IV. Electricity.
V. Depression
VI.
Government projects.
VII.
Blue Ridge Parkway.
VIII.
Bob Dalton.
IX.
Farming, markets.
X.
Banks closing.
XL
Neighbors during Depression.
XII.
Tourists.
XIII.
Selling Land after Depression.
XIV.
Cars.
XV.
1940 Flood.
XVI.
First car.
XVII.
Horses.
XVIII. Recreation.
XIX.
Barn raisings.
XX.
Weddings.
XXI.
Courting
�PAGE(S) MISSING
NOT AVAILABLE
�2.
Q: Now the first thing we want to know is about your childhood, where you
were born, who your parents were, where they're from, how many brothers
and sisters you had, how long ya'll lived around here and where everybody
went from here.
A: Well, I was born on this farm, not in this house, but in the home, the
next house up where my sisters live now when they're here in the summer.
They're in Florida in the winter, you know, up here where you're going.
In 1892, eighth of November, that's when I was born.
Q: Who built the house?
A: My daddy, J.M. Shull.
Q: And was he born here too?
A: Yes, he was born, not in that house, but in another house that stood down
where the garden is now. I can remember when they tore it down and part
of the lumber out of that house is in the house that you and Frank are moving
in, there's some of the lumber in that house.
Q: How many brothers and sisters did you have?
A: I had two half-sisters, my father was married twice.
First to Holly
Greene and she passed away and then later my father married All Baird
and had four sisters and no brothers. I'm the only boy by the last wife Ali.
Q: All this property you have, is it the same property that your father had?
�3.
A: I have a portion of it, he had more than I have.
He sold off some.
Q: Where did the land that your father owned go? Who got it and where
was it?
A: Well, he sold to various people, perhaps, I don't know, any number of
people, the last account I had there were seventeen dwellings or seventeen
people owned part of what was originally the old Shull farm.
I have been
told by the older folks, there were either 900 or 1100 acres. I never knew
which.
That was the original Shull property. All this down here and that
there, the big ridge where those folks live, there was a big boundary. I
own all of this, I think there's around 300 acres yet, I .own 225 of it, my
sisters own the balance of it.
What's left, in the neighborhood, there's
300 acres left of the original 9 or 11 hundred.
Q: Did you grow your own food on this farm when you were a kid?
A: Yeah, all of us.
We had to grow about all of it, we'd buy a little coffee
and sugar, was about the end of the buhing, so far as the eating was concerned.
We used to grow a lot of cabbage and potatoes and vegetables, stuff
like that and haul 'em to Hickory and Lenoir in a wagon in the fall of the
year and trade 'em for our coffee and sugar and maybe a little flour.
Q: What were the roads like then?
A: Just trails, just about like this right down through here.
Q: Just room enough for the wagon?
�4.
A: That was about it and you had to hunt places when you meet people to
pass.
You couldn't pass any place. You had to get out on the banks, I've
seen 'em life the wagons out of the roads so you could get by.
Q: And you'd go that way all the way to Lenoir?
A: All the way to Lenoir. Took three days to go to Lenoir and if you went
on to Hickory it took about a week. Load a wagon here with produce, 'bout
a couple thousand pounds around the tongue, ten and a quarter. Take four
horses, take it to the top of the mountain and from there on two horses could
usually take it down the mountain.
Q: Do you remember period of scarcity of food when you were growing up
here?
A: No, we never had any scarcity of food on this place that I remember.
Q: Did you store a lot of food?
A: Yes.
year.
Used to kill a dozen hogs and maybe a couple or three beefs in a
Kept a big flock of chickens, a hundred or so chickens, big flock of
geese and ducks. We used to pick the geese feathers to make feather beds.
We used lots of feather beds back then.
We did have some old shuck
mattresses I guess back in the early days.
and you'd roll over it it and the feathers
you'd sleep warm and snug.
Q: What's a shuck mattress?
Put these feather beds on there
would come up around you and
�5.
A: Well, it was a mattress similar to the ones they have now, but made out
of corn husks.
straw beds.
They called 'em shuck mattresses.
Straw beds, had lots of
Have a big tick and fill it with straw and sleep on that; lot of
people did.
Q: When did it change?
A: Oh, I don't know, it changed over the years so gradually I couldn't pinpoint
it.
I doubt if a person could sleep on a feather bed now, I couldn't*
Q: Where would they get cloth to make things like mattresses?
A: I don't know. They used to grow flax.
didn't I?
I showed you an old flax plate
They used to grow flax right here on the farm, break it and weave
the cloth on these old hand looms.
when I could remember.
They had a couple of 'em up here since
My mother would weave.
Q: Would she get together with most other women and they'd all sit around
and do it?
A: Everybody in the country had a loom.
If you couldn't weave you couldn't
be a wife hardly, or a housewife, if you couldn't weave cloth.
Q: Were your sisters taught to do all those kind of things.?
A: No, I don't remember that they were.
Q: How about school as a child here?
A: We had four months school; had to walk four miles to get there and back.
�6.
Q: Where was the school?
A: One of them was way down yonder, you know where the next bridge is across
the river down here below Valle Crucis.
You ever been around that a way
to Boone?
Q: Down 194 towards 421, that way?
A: Yea.
You went over to Mountain City didnU you, in the night other night?
On Mast Gap Road? The school house that we walked to down there was right
on the hill. This end of that big bridge that's there now. We also walked to
Shull's Mill to school, went both ways. We little fellows, we had to walk, too.
You didn't ride then.
Oh occasionally we'd maybe get a ride on a wagon or
something.
Q: What was the school you told me once that was in Boone you had to walk to?
A: I don't know, what they'd call, common school I reckon's what they called
it back those days, I don't know.
There wasn't any graded school and terms
they use not, that I remember.
Q: Were all the different ages of students in one room?
A: Yeah. They were all in one room, with one teacher.
I remember some of
my old teachers, Frankham was one. He was a great big, dark complexioned
man with gray hair and had great big eyes half as big as that and he'd scare
you just looking at you. Miss Kephart was another.
Kepharts we have now, I don't suppose.
No relation to the
I never thought about it 'till this very
�7.
minute.
You know Miss Kephart?
Q: How did they keep discipline in the schools then?
A: You'd get hit with an ox whip almost. Make you go out and cut your own
hickorys to give you a lickin 1 with.
Man they'd lick ya, too.
Yes sir, whenever
you got out of line back then you got it and when you got home you got another
one if they found it out.
We were taught to the tune of a hickory stick.
Q: Did your father go to school?
A: Yeah, he went to school.
Q: Sime place you went?
A: Oh, lawd no. The schools he went to wouldn't be a comparison either.
Q: What were you gonna say?
A: Almost as far behind these today, there wasn't ihat much difference.
Yes, he went to school.
One of his brothers, Uncle William, he went to
the state Senate, I reckon it was the Senate or Legislature or maybe both
in Raleigh, I believe he was both.
He was a one-armed man and my father,
let's see, Phillip, Noey, and Benn, all four of 'em went through the Civil War.
Q: Did he ever tell you about what it was like around here during the
Civil War?
A: Yes, I heard a lot of stories about what it was like around here. I forget
what they called them, Rebels, they called them Rebels, when they came
�through here and camped right up here, what they call the old Muster Field
around the bend of the river up here, it's all growed up now, where they
camped and they had to come down here to Grandfather Shull's. They had
big log barns up there and big cribs of corn.
They drove in there with their
wagons and back up to the side of his crip, shoveled his crib out in the wagons
and hauled it off.
Q: These were the Rebels or the Yankees?
A: Yankees, I guess they were.
think.
And they did take some of his horses I
I heard them talk about they had one bay mare, an awful pretty bay
filly and a young mule or two or something and some of them slipped down
to the barn and turned them out, they'd run them across the river in this
big field and the soldiers fell on their tracks. They wanted them and some
of them went down there, according to the story as I got it, they tried to get
them up but they could smell that campfire or something.
They said that
there weren't enough soldiers to get around them to bring those horses in,
so they left 'em there. They had three left, this mare and a pair of mules.
And they took their meat way down yonder in the swamp across the river and
buried it right out in the muck to save it.
Those were old stories before my
day, that were handed down to me.
Q: Were the men in that family fighting in the Rebel forces ?
A: They were in the Rebels, the sourtherners you see.
Q: Would the men in the family have been home here on the farm or would
they have been out fighting somewhere else?
�A: Oh, they were all gone, the men were gone, nobody here but my old
grandfather and grandmother and that old nigger slave I believe they had. And
she stayed right here, Grandfather Shull bought these slaves, he bought a
mother and her child and old Will.
He was an old man when I knew him but
he was young and old Tuck was his mother.
They called her Tuck, she passed
away and Will grew up and stayed right here. Well, he ran away and married
a white woman. Took a white woman and stole one of Grandfather's horses
and run off to Tennessee or someplace, Virginia.
And when boys got up the
next day and found this good horse gone, they called the Shulls (the slaves had
to take the same name as their owners) found him gone along with their good
horse, they inquired around and found that he'd taken this woman, her name
was Lyon something, they were getting their horse to go get him.
"We'll go
get that nigger. " Grandfather Shull came out and told 'em, "No, you're not
going anywhere. You go to work, " he says, "That nigger will be back. " And
sure enough after he'd sold the horse and run out of money and nobody wanted
him, he came creeping back and they lived here on the place the rest of their
days, raised a family, they all worked here. Grandfather Shull just let them
stay up here and they worked right here on the place til he died of old age.
He died while I was in the West.
He was as white-headed as that when I left
here but he was gone when I returned and I just inquired the other day about
Gilbus Mitchell who was the only man I could thing of in the country. Boyd
and I were talking about what become of old Will and I asked Gilbus if he
knew where old nigger Will was buried and he said that he thought the county
buried him on the county jfarm over near Boone. When they were freed they
took off. He just stayed here and worked right on.
�10.
Q: What are some of the j-obs you've had?
A: Oh, Lord, I've had so many, honey.
From pillar to post, happy go lucky,
didn't care much for anything, whether the boat landed or whether it didn't,
just roving around.
Got quite a bit of experience out of it, I don't know. I
never had any education to amount to anything so far as books were concerned.
Q: How far did you go in school?
A; Eighth grade. What they call eighth grade now, they didn't have any
grades back then.
Q: When did you leave home to get your first job?
A: Seventeen years old.
Q: What job was that?
A: I went West, landed in the state of Washington, sixteen miles out of
Spokane, a little town called Cheny.
Q: What job did you do then?
A: I got a job with a man had a ranch with the name of McDowell, Shirley
McDowell.
First job I ever had away from home. He had a ranch outside of
Cheny there and he also owned mining stock up in the Cortalane, you've
heard of the Cortalane Indian reservation in Idaho, have you?
Q: No.
�11.
A: Well, he had some mining stock up there in the Cortalane.
Cortalane
was mostly Indian, and he would go up there quite often, 'bout once a week
I guess, to see about his interest there.
The Indians were friendly with him,
he was a friend of them, they liked to see him.
other words.
He got along with them in
I worked for him, that was the first job I ever had away. I
can't remember Mrs. McDowell's given name but they were a young couple,
they just had two children, a boy and a girl, I remember.
the girl Zona.
Q: I guess.
I think they called
Is that right for a girl's name?
Inver heard it.
A: I believe Zona was her name and I forget the boy's name but they were an
awfully nice young couple.
They were just as nice to me as they could be.
Q: What kind of work did you do?
A: I just worked there on the ranch.
Anything that had come up that he had
to do. He had machines, thrashing machines and some cattle.
I did every-
thing that come up on the ranch and got scared to death there, I never been
scared before in my life or since.
Q: What scared you?
A: Well sir, that was the worst scare any man ever had, to live through it.
They had a big old well out in the barn lot 'bout as big as this table is round.
And Mr.
McDowell had gone that day across the Cortalanes over into Idaho
across the state line. Quite a ways over there. And the school marm boarded,
that's what they called
'em then, school marms, boarded at McDowells and
�12.
and Elizabeth, she'd gone to school, and Zona and the little boy had gone with
her.
And Mrs. McDowell was going to wash.
Well-water was awful scarce and hard
to get where you could find a well that would supply water, great big old
well, it just had a big old wooden door, platform of a thing built to slip over
this well. Hinged over there and you could take a hold of it here and turn it
around until the whole well opened. Great big thing.
Well, Mrs. McDowell
was fixing to wash and I went to get a load of wood and she had her clothes
out there and she's all round thre and I'd built the fire and when I came back,
Mrs. McDowell was gone, there was the clothes, the water was hot and this
well was open. Imagination, I just knew Mrs. McDowell was in that well. It
just scared me; I hardly knew what I's a doing.
I knew I's a stranger out
there three or four thousand miles from home and they'd say,
"Well, that
fellow pushed Mrs. McDowell in that well. " That was just imagination, you
know, and the longer it went and I went all over the place a yelling for her and
a hollering.
Doors was open in the house.
Things scattered all over just like
it was when I went after the wood. And I was so excited and so scared.
His
brother Jim lived up the road about a mile, and always kept a bunch of horses
around.
Two or three saddle horses and a saddle on one most of the time. I
caught that saddle horse and I jumped on him, left everything just like it was
and I just flew up to Jim's, told Jim about Mrs. McDowell had disappeared
and he saw how excited I was and scared and me just a young lad.
he caught a horse and started back with me.
I think
If I remember correctly, he
said no, just forget all that, that wasn't nothing, talking 'bout me pushing
her in the well that's why I's scared.
We met a neighbor or someone. They
�13.
were scared then.
Not many people ever traveled but someone come along
and said she'd gone into town with another neighbor down there that drove up
there in a buckboard, and she just jumped in the carriage and went with 'em
and never left me a note or anything and scared me to death, never thought
about what it would do to me, you know. Didn't intend to be gone long. It
was 4 or 5 miles up to town. I won't forget that scare, never.
Q: How long did you work on that farm?
A: I didn't work there too long.
I went there in spring of the year. Now when
harvest season come along up in June or July, I got to seeing in the paper
where they was advertising for harvest hands down in the Paloose country.
And I talked to fellows around there that had followed the harvest season.
$2. 50 a day then was tremendous wages.
Nobody'd ever heard of such wages.
Well, I decided I'd go down and follow the harvest. I went down there. I
was down there two or months I guess.
Q: Where is the Paloose country?
A: Paloose country? Well, it's south of Spokane. It's all Paloose country
between Spokane and Walla Walla.
forget.
country.
I believe they call it the Downem or, I
Anyhow it was along the R&N railroad, R&N they called it the Paloose
Very rich section of the country. North of wheat country.
Q: How long did you work harvesting?
A: Oh, I worked several harvests, different ones.
I got in with a Richard
Hagaman, Hagaman brothers. They were big operators. I got in with them
�14.
and they were originally from this country.
Kelly that I was with.
I called 'em Uncle Joe and Aunt
There was Joe and Tom and Robie and four brothers.
And I always called Uncle Joe and Aunt Kelly my home. I stayed with them.
They were awfully good to me.
I stayed right with them.
Q: I think we better get back to Valle Crucis.
What do you remember about
the churches that were here? Did you go to church?
A: Yes sir, my father was Sunday School superintendent for years, 'bout as
long as I can remember. We had to go every Sunday.
Q: Where was the church?
A: Right where it is now.
Q: Did most of the people in Valle Crucis go to that church?
A: Yes.
It was called Valle Crucis, too.
Up where I go to church now was
known as Upper Valle Crucis and this down here at the Methodist Church,
they called it Lower Valle Crucis.
Q: How has the church changed?
A: Well, it's been added to quite a bit and more or less modernized, I
suppose you'd call it.
Q: How do you mean?
A: Well, it was a little room to start with. Now they've built Sunday School
rooms.
�15.
Q: Did they have hymnals?
A: Oh yeah, they had hymnals.
Q: Who was the preacher?
A: Oh, there've been half a dozen,
every so often.
I couldn't tell you. Yeah, they change 'em
I don't know who all; I can remember a few names, Dawson
and Burris, Ader at the Methodist Church and I can remember a few up at the
Episcopal Church.
Q: Do you know how Valle Crucis got its name?
A: Yeah.
From the three creeks over there. No one ever explained that to
you? To save my life, I've thought about it a lot.
I don't get it but Dutch
Creek comes down through here; Clark's Creek comes down through here;
Crab Orchard comes in here. Not to a pinpoint, but I understand that it
was named from them,three creeks forming a cross.
That's the old story
I've heard.
Q: Maybe it was valley of the cross.
A: Vale of the cross.
Q: Who were the community leaders?
A: My father was one of the leaders, Jim Shull, D.F. Mast, W. H. Mast,
C.D. Taylor, L. H. Taylor, D.F. Beard, old Uncle Henry Taylor, the ones
I can remember that were the leading citizens in the community.
�16.
Q: Why were they community leaders?
A: Well, just like any other community, every other country, and every
other community you know has leaders, don't they?
Q: Yeah.
A: Well, how would you describe it?
Q: Did they have the most property, or were they just. . .
A: Just prominent men, that's the best I could term it.
Men stood up for
what's right. Wouldn't that be the way you'd describe it?
Q: I sure would. I sure would.
A: They were church going folks.
Q: How many people were in the community then and how has it changed?
A: Comparatively few from what there is now and there wasn't but one house
between my father's house, this house wasn't ihere, these houses down here,
there was one house, little old log house stood up at the holler was the only
house between my father's house and Uncle Fin's down there at Joe's where
these folks bought me the pie the other night live. That house and one other
between the store, just the three houses betweenvthe store and my father's
back at that time. Now then there's another one isn't there?
Q: What were the politics like?
�A: Well, just of the immediate community it was mostly Democratic but for
the township as a whole, it was Republican.
Q: What constituted the township?
A: Township's Republican.
Q: The township of Boone, do you mean?
A: No, Boone township's different, this is Watauga township.
cut up into townships.
The county's
Let's see there's Shawneehaw, Watauga, Aho, Boone,
Meat Camp, New River, Elk, Cove Creek is eight, Brushy Fork, I don't know
whether there's eight or nine townships in the county or what.
Q: Do you remember any particular elections?
A: One more than the other you mean?
No, I don't believe I could name one
right at the moment that was outstanding. Most of the folks in this township,
they're pretty level-headed, give and take in other words, give and take.
I
get along mighty well, this is a Republican township, but I get along with the
Republicans mighty well.
We joke back and forth.
I'll go at a bunch of 'em,
"Hi, Republicans" which used to back in long ago days would make 'em mad.
They won't anymore, they'll take it" good naturedly.
They'll say, "Yeah, here
comes that lousy Democrat. "
Q: You'd say at one time people wouldn't take it good naturedly?
A: That's right, there was a time when anything mentioned in the political
line would create friction.
But that's all gone, people's got above that.
Yeah,
�18.
Jim Church, his father's a Republican, Jim was raised a Republican, fellows
up 'there around the filling station, man that made that remark is dead and gone
now but he was a sort of a tight Republican, he said, "Jim", he was teasing Noy
more or less, Jim's father, owns a motel and says, "Jim married in that
Shull family down there and they made a Democrat out of him, " and said,
"Now Jim's darn near made a Democrat out of Noy. " That's the way we get
along, we just have fun out of it.
over his politics.
I'm not a gonna fall out with my neighbor
I don't care how he votes, it's immaterial to me.
He's
got a good right to vote his way as I have" mine.
Q: How did people get around in those days?
A: On their, what they used to call 'em, mother's, got around by foot, that's
the way you got around. Walkway wasn't crowded. Well, you could ride
horse back some as some of the folks.
Q: Did people around here have carriages?
A: Oh yes, the country was full of buggies and surreys. Stagecoach line
used to run through here and that was long before my day. Had a station up
here at Grandfather Shull's where they changed horses, four, six horse team
to the stagecoach.
You've seen 'em on the movies.
They had a station up
here, he had a big barn and plenty of everything around him and they'd change
horses there, that was a station to change horses.
Q: Where were they coming from?
�19.
A: Running from. Butler, Tennessee, then to Morganton, N. C. was this run
and I don't know where they went to from there any other place. It had quit
running but I have a piece of the old stagecoach. It was up here for a long
time.
Grandfather Shull was a blacksmith, he had a blacksmith shop. Shoe
the horses and help keep up the carriages, and I have a piece of that, we kids,
my sisters and I, we played with that old stagecoach and climbed in it and out
of it and make out like we's a driving it.
Til it run it down, went to the bad
and tear it off by souvenir hunters and I have one piece of it out there in the
cellar now. The old original stagecoach, it run from, I bet it's the only piece
left.
Q: Where did the carriages and coaches come from?
A: That's beyond me, that's what I don't know.
I read something not too
long ago about someone down this state I believe, either in this state or
South Carolina that made those things, built 'em.
Q: How did the mail work?
A: Mail was carried by horseback mostly.
Q: How often did it come?
A: Once or twice a week, I think.
Q: Did you ever remember getting things by mail order back when you were
young?
A: Yeah, yeah. Yes sir, used to order lots of stuff mail order.
Yeah, I
�20.
can remember that. We get stuff yet, we very often order stuff by mail order.
Til it come into the post office though we bought from Sears and Roebuck
mostly; it always come to the Sears in Boone, went out there to pick it up.
Q: Were there any notorious badmen and law officers in this area?
A: Yeah! ; My Grandfather Baird was sheriff two terms of this county, and that's
my mother's father, and there were plenty of badmen and plenty of mischief a
going on. I can't remember hardly, yeah, I can remember it too, barely.
Grandfather Baird that was sick, got rheumatism or something, and my father
sherriffed for him that winter; he did the sherriffing for him.
I remember him
having one man in the county they called Wilson, Lucky Joe Wilson, called
him Lucky Joe.
And he was a bad actor and everybody was afraid of him, I
don't know why, but Lucky Joe was considered dangerous, I think, and had to
be arrested. He sent my grandfather word, called him Uncle Dave, that was
his name, Dave.
"If you'll come after me yourself I'll go with ye, but don't
send them damn little deputies, I'm not blind. " Grandfather Baird got on his
horse and went over there after him by himself, everybody begging him not
to go, said Lucky Joe would kill him; Lucky Joe would do this. He went over
there and Lucky Joe come out and invited him in to have dinner, he went and eat
dinner with him, and after dinner Grandfather said, "Well, Joe, " says, "You
have to go along. " Old Joe went with him right on to jail. Not a bit of
trouble.
Q: Where was the jail then?
�21.
A: In Boone.
'Bout all there was there in Boone then was a courthouse and
a jail, that's all they had.
Now that story's before my day. That was handed
down to me but it was right, because I know it was right. I believe he was
the man.
I'm not sure whether I ought to tell these old stories or not.
I think
he's the man that died out of jail on the doctors over there at Boone one time.
Q: Lucky Joe?
A: Yeah.
I think it was Lucky Joe, now I won't be too sure, but he took a
notion he wanted out of jail and he just died,
^hey laid him out, they had what
they called cooling boards then, they laid him out there, used to have what
they'd call watches or sit ups with the corpse. Anyhow, they shut Lucky Joe
up in this room and all went out and he heard 'em lock the door.
After they
went out, Lucky Joe got up and opened the window and when they come back
to look, Lucky Joe was gone.
He wasn't dead after all.
I think that was Lucky
Joe.
Q: That's pretty lucky, I'd say.
A: Yeah, I've heard so many. Yeah, he said, "Aw, the doctors don't know
anything about you anyhow, only what you tell them. " I guess the doctors
didn't know too much back in those days.
Q: Were there any doctors in this area?
A: No, very few. Very few.
I can remember, I don't believe there were but
two doctors. I don't know whether there was any other doctor in the county or
not.
Dr. Phipps and Dr. Philips. Philips lived in that end of the county and
�22.
Phipps lived in this end. Those are the only two doctors I can remember
hearing mentioned back in those days.
I don't know there might have been
another one, but I never heard, don't remember it.
Q: Did people use doctors much then?
A: No, no. They made their own teas out of roots and herbs and stuff.
They
didn't have much medicine except what they made at home.
Q: Do you remember any roots or herbs that they used in particular?
A: Yeah, sure I can remember some of them.
Not too long ago, I remember
one til now. People used to have a lot of sore mouth. This yellow root that
grows on the bank of the river down here, I gathered it for someone a year or
two ago, they sent here. You get some yellow root. This lady had had a sore
mouth for, oh, just a year or two ago, and wanted to know where to get some
yellow root.
Q: Yellow root's the name of it?
A: I don't know whether it is or not. It's what I call it.
I guess there's
some other name for it, I don't know.
Q: Do you remember any other roots and herbs that they might have used?
A: Yeah.
They made lots of sassafrass tea out of sassafrass and spricewood
and catnip tea.
Yeah, I can remember several of those.
Q: What were they used for? What was sassafrass used for and what was
catnip used for?
�23.
A: Hoarseness, sore throat or congestion or something like that.
Q: Did people use ginseng for much here?
A: Sang? Ginseng? Yeah! They hunt that yet.
house where you're moving in, he was good at it.
This man that lived in this
He'd sell three or four
hundred dollars worth of ginseng nearly every year. He'd get out here on
Sundays and scour the mountains, he knew every holler, rock and spring in
this country. His father was SAP.d at it and he'd been trained good at it and
they'd just hunt ginseng and sell it.
Made good at it.
Q: What did they use if for?
A: I don't know what it's for.
It's high priced stuff.
Q: So people around here really didn't use it much, they just sold it.
A: Yeah, they sell it.
Q: That's still going on a lot?
A: Yeah, sang business is big business.
high priced stuff.
Not big here of course, but it's
Howard Mast down here at this store, I don't know, he
did, he may not no more but he did buy it for a while.
Q: I know they buy it in town too.
A: Yeah, they buy it.
The wild, they have it cultivated, but the wild ginseng
brings nearly two times the money that the cultivated does. Now I don't know
why, I never knew. Oh, these old stories, I don't know.
�24.
Q: When did the unions start coining in?
A: The union, labor union?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know. I wish to the lord it'd never been born.
Q: Did you feel it much in Valle Crucis?
A: No, no.
Q: How did you get the news then?
A: We didn't get much news other than local.
referring back then.
Back in those days, you're
You know how we get it now, don't you?
Q: Yeah.
A: There wasn't much, maybe we'd get our newspaper once a week or
something like that.
Q: Where was the newspaper printed from?
A: Well, Charlotte mostly.
Charlotte.
I believe the first good newspapers came from
Charlotte Observer, Charlotte Times; Observer I guess was about
the first one I can remember.
Q: When was that?
A: I don't know. Years ago.
once a week.
Wasn't many newspapers.
You might get it
�25.
Q: Were people much concerned about national politics?
A: No, no, wasn't much concerned about no politics 'cept at home. No, they
didn't take any of it too serious. Good thing they didn't. Those were the good
old days.
People was honest.
You could leave everything unlodked and go back
home and find it like you left it.
Now, you can't sleep with it and keep it. Keep
everything under lock and key and that don't do much good.
Q: What do you think's the cause for the difference?
A:
Greed, I guess, don't you? What would you think?
Q: I guess so.
A: I don't know how to put it any simpler, would you?
Q: No, I think you've 'bout got it there. So, now tell us about when you helped
start the telephones in this area.
A: Oh, yeah. Well, we had a little old local system around here as long as I
can remember. Them little old crank things on the wall.
Did you ever see any
of them.?
Q: Yeah, on T. V.
A: Well they had those 'bout as long as I can remember but they wasn't very,
they's better than no phones. Daddy had one.
There's several in the country.
We couldn't hardly get into Boone or out of the valley, just call your nearer
neighbors.
But this new system came along, Skyline I believe is what they call
�26.
it, isn't it?
Q: Yeah.
A: And the way it all come about, I was in Boone going down one side of the
street, David Farthing, his father had it, the little old system and David had
been in this telephone meeting that I'd never heard of, I didn't know anything
about it.
When he hollored at me across the street and said, "Wait a minute,
I want to see you. " Came over and he told me, says, " If you guys want a
telephone, you'd better get busy. " And I asked what he meant by getting busy.
Says it cost him so much to keep it up and people, lot of them didn't pay for
the phones that had 'em and they's behine and David said, "Tell me, " says,
"I'm not a going to break myself up nor mortgage my farm to keep up this
telephone system. " Says, "What I mean and I been in a meeting down here and
you have a chance of getting a telephone system that will work. " And I got him
to explain it to me, REA sorta behind it or something like that, you know, in
connection with the REA Electric, they got it on their poles.
meeting in Boone and I went, he told me about it.
Well, they had a
That was the very first
thing I ever heard, just fell on to me out of the clear, blue sky.
I went to this
meeting and the people promoting this system refused to come what they called
west of the mountain, the Rich mountain over there, you know what the Rich
mountain is.
Q: Yeah.
A: They would put it into Boone and east but they refused to come west of it.
And I asked him what it would take to induce 'em to come west.
They said if
�27.
we could get a hundred signers, a hundred telephones, they would consider it.
Well, I asked him what a hundred telephones would mean, what it would take to
get 'em.
Took $35 deposit to get a telephone.
it was our only chance.
I went to work on it.
miles, I don't know how much.
Well, I come on home and I seen
I guess I drove two or three hundred
Sight on earth, though, my own car, gas and
expense, and everything a selling those telephones and I had an awful time,
I
go t way up to 85 or 90 of 'em somewhere and I just about got burnt out and
disgusted. I had an uncle that sorta half way opposed it and he said, "You're
running around here selling folks things they don't need and don't want and not
able to pay for. " Anyway I kept a going on with it and I got up 85 or 90 I give
every man that bought a phone from me my receipt for his $35. And I turned
the money in, that was a very dumb thing of me and I poured business to him
but I never took any receipts, I just turned the money in. Well, the administration changed, went from one administration to the other.
Q: In Boone?
A: SJo, in the nation.
Q: What administration was it?
Which one did it change from?
A: I don't remember which a way it went, but anyhow whoever went in up there
in Washington held the thing up. Well, I got out here and sold all these folks
telephones, majority of them Republicans, that's where your politics comes in
again, me a Democrat.
couple of years.
They got so when they'd see me, it was held up for a
"Where's our telephone?
We want our telephone or we want
our money. " Put me on the spot. I didn't have either one, their money nor
�28.
their telephone either one and we had a little meeting one day. They had a right
to demand their money or a phone. One day, when I thought a bad day Saturday
afternoon, I went to the store, Foscoe and a bunch of 'em in there and they
commenced talking about it,
"We want our money or we want our telephone. "
I talked a little with 'em, I told 'em, "Why, gentlemen, I don't have either one
and I don't have money enough to pay you but I'm here to write checks just as
long as I've got a dime to write on. Now, who's first?" And they commenced
talking among themselves a little bit and one of 'em spoke up and said, "I don't
believe it's fair to make Don put up that money out of his own pocket. " I'd
explained to them that I didn't have a thing to show for it and they got to talking
among themselves and I told 'em, I said, "if you'll j u s t bear with us and go
along with us, we'll get these phones but I can't promise you when. " After
discussing it pro and con, "Well, I guess that's about the only thing to do. Say
you haven't got money enough, there's no use in some of us getting money and
some not. " And they just went along with me and the things come through and
now every feller and his brother's got a telephone.
They wouldn't part with
them at all.
Q: So they finally came?
A: Yeah, they finally came, but it leaves me in the position of kinder being a
daddy of this system, you understand?
Q: Yeah, yeah.
When was that?
Do you remember what years that would have been?
A: No, I can't remember. It's not been long, many years. We haven't had
this system too long.
�29.
Q: Would it be like the '30's, '40's, or '50's?
A: Oh, it must have been in the late '40's or early '50's, somewhere in that
neighborhood.
This Mrs. Ayers that died the other day up here was one of the
first 'uns to take a telephone off of me.
She took a telephone and plunked down
here thirty-five bucks, one of the first ones.
I guess I was really the first one
to sign the thing, I imagine I was.
Q: Were you living here then?
A: Sure, yeah.
I guess my sisters was about the next 'uns, a working up the
road.
Q: What kind of operation were you running here on the farm?
A: Oh, I've done a little of all of it: livestock, crops, and produce to general
crops.
Sheep and cattle was my first start.
Did that for a number of years, I
have some things out there in the garage that the bank gave me for being, go
out there and read 'em, they'll tell you better than I can, couple of them. One
of 'em was on sheep, livestock and other one was on the first man in the country
to grow 135 bushels of corn an acre, I think. They gave me something. Wanted
me to put 'em up out here at the road and I wouldn't do it, I stuck 'em up out in
the garage.
Wasn't trying to advertise because you had a little streak of good
luck one year, might have had bad luck next year.
make a little this year and lose it next year.
on the face of the earth.
Q: Hew do you mean?
That's the farmer luck; you
Farmer's the biggest gambter
Did you ever think about it ;
�30.
A: Takes more chances than any other one man.
You gamble again' Nature.
When you're farming, you plant a crop a hoping to do something but it takes
twelve months to find out.
If you play your money on a horse race here you
know in a few minutes, but if I play my money in a big crop down here in the
field, I've got the hailstorms, the windstorms, the floods, the drought, I'm a
gambling again1 Nature.
Q: Does the amount of money you'll make on a certain crop change a lot from
year to year?
A: Oh yeah, you might make some this year and lose it next on the same crop.
Yeah. I did very well in the vegetable business, that is, I didn't go to the poor
house on it.
What I did, when I went to growing potatoes and beans, they call
it majoring in school, I don't know what you'd call it on a farm, but I went to
cropping; let my livestock slip. I sold my sheep.
Well the dogs ran me out of
the sheep business, I just drifted down on them and played vegetables along
here several years, paid off and did very well through the Second World War
period.
them.
They were clammering for something to eat.
I did very well through
Now then I played out of cattle or out of vegetables, I did, two years
ago, quit that, drifting back towards livestock.
Now I'm going to try to finish
out with livestock a little bit.
Q: Who sheared the sheep when you used to deal in sheep?
A: They used to be some men in the county that made a business of it.
Q: Traveling about from farm to farm where they could work sheep?
�31.
A: Yeah, yeah.
We had a man in the community, he's dead and gone now, by
the name of George Lester.
He's almost a professional sheep shearer. He
could shear sheep, did a good job.
Q: How were the sheep sheared before electric equipment?
A: I've a hand shearer up there and a pair out here too.
I can show you the
very first ones that they used. They clipped 'em by hand this a way and this one
up here I have, it turns with a crank.
Clippers they call it. And then the
electric one, I had an electric one. My uncle and I bought an electric shearing
machine together.
And I finally let, I don't know, Frank may have it down
there yet, I don't know.
Q: When did electricity come in here?
A: Our first 'lectricity here came from the dam up the river yonder. You
remember seeing that ol' broken down dam up there right this side of Hound
Ears on'the river?
Q: Yeah.
A:. Well, that was where the power plant was, way down the road here just
off below the road right on the bank of the river. And the '40 flood wiped that
all out, the power plant.
Most of it stopped over here in my bottom, awful lot
of it.
Q: The dam and the equipment, the power plant?
�32.
A: Some of it.
Stopped right over here in my bottom, that great big metal
iron thing as big as, oh, these two rows put 'together. I had to get a settling
torch and the man worked nearly a week cutting that thing up 'til I could load
it and haul it out.
I have a picture of it somewhere.
I climbed up on it and was
sitting there when George Farthing made my picture. It should be here someplace.
Q: When did electricity come in?
A: Well, it had come in before '40. We got it from that little old dam up there.
I don't know, in the thirties, late thirties I guess it was.
thirties. That all washed out and washed away.
Sometime in the
This system that has it now,
whatever it is, Blue Ridge Electric? They rebuilt it and took over after that
system went out by the '40 flood.
Q: How did it get started? Was it part of that government funding that got the
electricity and the dam started?
A: That first one?
Q: Yeah.
A: No, I don't thing it was.
I think it was a local concern. What did they
call that, Blowing Rock Electric or something? I don't rmemeber what they
called it.
It wasn't much service. It was just little better than none.
Q: During the Depression how much did the government, like the national
goverment function in here? I mean how much help was given by the national
government to hereJ?
�33.
A: I wouldn't know.
Q: Did the Depression affect you very greatly here?
A: Yes ma'am.
I'd go farther for a dime in those days than I would for a
dollar now. A dollar's easier got than a dime was then, and worth more when
you got it.
Maybe that's a little far fetched.
Q: I remember you told me that there was a time when money just wasn't
changing hands that much, it was what you grew on your farm.
A: That's right, by golly there just wasn't any money hardly.
Q: By the time of the Depression were you using money more and missing it
more ?
A: You didn't have any. Couldn't miss it much because you didn't have any.
Q: Before the Depression, was money being used more than, say, crops and
barter?
A: Aw, was it ever.
If thre's any way in the world to get along, use what
little money we had and any barter we could stir up. Yeah it was tough times.
I remember one time it took every hoof that we could rake and scrape on this
farm to pay our taxes.
Q: Every hoof of what?
A: Cattle and sheep or anything we could sell to -even pay my taxes. Now
that was a pretty tough time.
�34.
Q: How much was taxes running then?
A: Oh, I don't remember.
Probably half as much.
Not like they are now. Not near what they are now.
I just remember we have to save about every dime we
got all the year to have money enough to pay our taxes.
Q: Doesn't seem quite fair, does it?
A: No, your tax had to be paid.
You have to pay them.
If you didn't pay em,
they'll advertise ya and sell ya out.
Q: But it seems like if you gotta pay more taxes than you do towards your own
living, it's not quite fair.
It seems like if you're paying more taxes to the
government than you are to your own living; if you have to pay more money to the
government than you can pay yourself, it's a little too much. Did any families
around here go out during the Depression; did they have to sell out because
of taxes?
A: No, no. I don't remember anybody being sold out for taxes.
Yeah, there
were, there is yet, not around here though I don't think. Ever once in a
while you see something advertised for taxes.
Q: How did the Depression affect your daily life, like getting shoes or things
like that? How did it affect your children and family?
A: Well, we got along on what we had. We just had to get along on less. We
didn't get everything we wanted. Like Uncle Billy Caringer used to say, "it
was good we didn't want everything we seen. " Maybe that helped some. Now
�35.
a days people wants about everything they see.
Q: Did you have to work any other jobs beside your farming to make ends meet?
A: No, I don't remember doing' that. Oh, I'd log,
yeah. I'd do logging' and
lumber but that was off of the farm here usually.
Q: Sell your farm you mean?
A: Yeah, yeah.
I did lots of that.
Q: Did you ever hear about any of the government projects like the WPA and
the CCC?
A: Lord, did I ever hear 'em. The WPA built this road out here just about
it.
Yes sir, the country was full of WPA hand. That was a fraud, ever I
ne'er saw.
That WPA gang made me sick.
Q: Why?
A: Way they piddled along.
Q: They didn't have to work hard?
A: No, never earned their money.
More or less of a dole the way I figured
it.
Q: Where were they living when they worked on the roads?
A: At home, what homes they had. Anywhere around here in these hills.
�36.
Q: What kind of things did they do, was it mostly building roads and all, that
you remember?
What kind of things do you remember them doing for the WPA?
A: What did they use you mean, the tools?
Q: Well, no. Whad did they do? I know they built roads, what else did they
do or did they do anything other than build roads ?
A: The road building was about all I know of. They might have had other WPA
projects a going but I didn't know anything about 'em.
Q: Do you remember the Parkway coming in? The Blue Ridge Parkway?
A: Sure, sure I remember the Parkway.
Bob Dalton is the daddy of the Parkway
through here. You've heard of R. L. Dalton. He was one of the oldest
congressmen in Washington for years. He's one of the old timer big shots up
there, like Sam Ervin is now. You read about Sam Ervin? Well, Bob Dalton,
they listened to Bob Dalton then like they do to Sam Ervin today. And Bob
Dalton, I don't know how, but my wife was related to the Daltons. When she
was up in Washington, Bob Dalton was there and they called her Bobby after
Bob Dalton because she looked like him.
Reba, Bob Dalton1 s daughter just
passed away, it was in last week's Democrat. Did you read it, Jane?
Q: No.
A: Well, I knew Reba well. I know Hort and Claude. They had the three
children.
They all visited in our home up here. Reba was there,
oh just two
or three years ago she come by here to see Boyd. She and Boyd were
�37.
relation.
She was Bob Dalton's daughter an.c£ they were related and now then
Claude and Hort and Reba, Mr. and Mrs. Dalton, they're all gone, the Dalton
family's gone.
Q: I don't know my history well but did the TVA have much effect
here? Or
was that all in Tennessee?
A: I don't recall anything about that affecting this section.
I don't recall
anything.
Q: Did you have to cut down on the people you could hire and did thegirls,
your daughters, work in the fields with you more than during prosperous times
during the Depression?
A: They worked in'the field a lot when I's in beans and vegetables.
yea, I had hands here from all over the county nearly.
Law,
Truckes a running
from Elk, I had two trucks hauling hands from down in Elk, east of Boone.
You've heard of Elk?i
Q: Yeah.
A: I had one hauling hands from the Beech Mountain and Banner Elk country
and I had one or two hauling out of Grandfather country up here.
I don't remember, Boyd and Bill Leek lived here then.
son and Bill helped out a lot.
We had hands,
Bill was my sister's
Boyd and Bill run the bean picking end of it.
I
was out most, took me all night selling beans and I was out in the night and I
had to sleep a little. I remember Boyd saying, I think she said seventy-five hands
one day was the top number down there. We had 'em all the way from a half
�38.
a dozen to seventy-five in here picking beans.
Q: Who would drive those trucks?
A: Well, I drove it.
Q: Oh, you'd go haul the hands in and take 'em back?
A: Oh, those coming in?
Q: Yeah.
A: No, men that lived in those sections of the country. I had them trucking.
They'd get up their own load, say they come from Elk down there, had a man
by the name of Watsonlived down there. The other man, I had two of 'em
coming out of there, Carlton and Watson. They'd hunt up these hands themselves
and I'd give them so much for bring in the hands. They'd bring 'em in and work
their bunch of hands, say a man brought in twenty on his truck.
He would work
that twenty in the field, would make him oversee his own gang and then would
pay him so much for bringing the hands in and taking 'em home.
Q: Do you know of any farms around here that still have an operation to such
an extent that they have to bring in hands ?
A: No. Nothing like that now. I don't know of a thing like that.
Q: When did that stop?
A: I doubt whether there's a thing like that operation in the county or not.
�39.
Q: When did that stop? When did the farm start getting smaller?
A:
Stopped, oh, not long after the second World War.
When they were
pushing so hard for the war.
Q: And then what happened?
A: Well, we just drifted off into this general trend, what I've told you.
Q: You do like a smaller area of beans and a smaller area of cabbage so you
can take care of it all pretty much with less people.
A: Yeah, I drifted out of vegetables, back into livestock and I've been a
drifting along with livestock since, doing no good.
Make a little money one
year and lose it the next.
Q: You think the smaller farm will ever have a revival?
A: I wouldn't know.
business.
I think each way, you change your mind ever which
Advocating here a few years ago to either get bigger or get out.
You might have seen something to that effect.
out.
It was either get bigger or get
This is not a farming country here no way.
Q: Anymore?
A: No, this isn't a farming county, Law, no.
Q: Would you say that it ever was really a farming country? In the mountains?
A: Yeah, back in the days when there wasn't any big farming.
It was all small
�40.
farming.
People made a living.
Q: And I guess your farm was like supplying people in a smaller area, whereas
now a days the trucks have to go all over the country, when they get ~ a truckload
of canned beans they might go all the way to California with them or something,
whereas those days they didn't.
A: No, they didn't have to go so far.
We had canneries nearer. The bean
market was in Mountain City and they got one in Boone after that and they got
one in Jefferson. You let one thing start off and do very well at it for a year
or two, anything that you make a little money at, then the others will all jump
in and try to get their fingers into the pie.
Have you noticed that? I happened to
be in with Mountain City when the bean market started over there, in fact I got
a little share in it, I just stuck to Mountain City.
Q: Are there still markets in Mountain City and West Jeffer-son now?
A: I don't know whether they're buying beans there or not. I quit and forgot
about the beans.
There wouldn't be any way now to get 'em fixed.
I'd like to
see ya get seventy-five hands down here now. Money couldn't get 'em.
Q: Do you remember during the Depression any banks closing around here
or stores closing up?
A: Yeah, seemed like there was a little bank in Boone that folded up, they
called it the People's Bank I believe.
up.
I'm not too sure but I believe that folded
I think they started a little bank over there they called the People's Bank
and I don't know whether the Depression was responsible for it or not, but
�41.
I imagine it was.
Q: Did any stores have to close down?
A: I don't remember any at the moment.
Q: Was there more of a feeling during the Depression of neighbors helping
neighbors rather than there is now?
A: I believe they were a little better to cooperate in that respect. I've always
had good neighbors. I could go out most anytime and get some of my neighbors,
if I's in a pinch, I could get help.
Q: When did the recreation aspect of tourists start coming in?
A: Law, they had tourists before they ever got to.. . , they didn't know the
word tourist, I reckon.
It was 'bout as long ago as I can remember, better
homes of the community kept what they called 'em then, boarders. Summer
people that had a little money and wanted to get out of the hot weather down
south, come up to the mountains. And the various homes would take in a few,
whatever they could handle.
My mother up here used to keep, well, she 'tised
to could take care of fifty or twenty boarders and had hired help.
Aunt Josie
Mast do the same, and Aunt Vick Taylor. The better homes would take these
folks in. There wasn't no motels those days and mighty few hotels. And that
was way back yonder, quite a while ago.
Aunt Josie.
Q: What would they do during the day?
Yeah, mother used to keep 'em and
�42.
A: Aw, they'd fish a little, some of 'em.
Some of 'em hike a little.
Q: Watch ya'll work?
A: Yeah, and lay around in the shade mostly and watch the rest of us work,
make a living for it.
Q: Where did they come from?
A: Down anywhere, down the country where it's hot weather or be hot.
Most
of 'em out of South Carolina and southern Georgia and down in there where it's
hot; get out of the heat. They wouldn't stay long; they couldn't afford it I don't
reckon.
They's all comin' and a goin', it was just to come and a go.
You'd
get application like you wanted some one come next week, three in a party or
four or something.
You might have three or four going out and you could take
'em in on a certain date; keep filled up as you could.
It was just a constant
thing.
Q: Did that continue during the Depression?
A: Not much.
People too hard up. Didn't have anything to board on.
�
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-18
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ira Donald Shull, March 27, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Ira Shull was born November 8, 1892 in Valle Crucis, North Carolina on a farm where he grew up. During his young adult life, he moved out west to the Washington area, specifically Spokane where he worked on a ranch. Mr. Shull had a hand in bringing telephone lines to the Boone area in the 1940s.
Mr. Shull refers back to his childhood and community life in Valle Crucis including politics, transportation, postal service, outlaws, and homemade remedies. He goes into detail about his experience farming livestock and crops. Mr. Shull also talks in detail about the Great Depression including the WPA projects going on at that time. He shares stories of outlaws and the Civil War his grandfather shared with him as a child.
Creator
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Hallstrom, Jane
Shull, Ira Donald
Source
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<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
3/27/1973
Rights
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Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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44 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape50_IraDonaldShull_1973_03_27M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Valle Crucis, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--19th century
Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Ranch life--Washington--Spokane
Boone
Civil War
Great Depression
outlaws
telephone
Valle Crucis
Washington
WPA
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e636a1c24a35eef6eb8b63791acd88aa.pdf
1871f19e81f8d8301afa6b6ae0ad4878
PDF Text
Text
Page 1.
This is an interview with Mr, Dave Hodges for the Appalachian
Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley on March kt 1973.
Q:
Could you give me the name and birthplace of your parents?
A:
They were born in Watauga County here, about two miles west
of here,
Q:
Did you have any brothers and sisters?
A:
Yes, I have one brother and one sister living, and one sister
dead.
Q:
What are the names of the brother and sister living?
A:
Bessie, she was the baby girl, and Dallas Hodges is my brother
that lives at VIlas,
Q:
Do you have any childhood memories of what life was like?
A:
We had an awful time; we had to v/ork awful hard to make ends
meet, you know, but we growed up, I started in working when I was
1^ years old. I went to work on Tweetsie when they was building it
in here, cutting the right of way. I helped build the right of way
and helped lay the steel and helped run it into Boone when it
came in here. I was just a boy,
Q:
How would you compare the way that children worked back then to
the way they work now?
A:
They're a lot of difference. We had to help make a living, get
out in the field and work, farm work,
Q:
Do you think that as a result of that, the children of today are
becoMng a little bit dissatisfied with the way things are? Do you
�think if they had that hard work to do they wouldn't be quite so
rebellious?
A:
I believe it would have something to do with it.
Q:
Maybe hard work would tame them down?
A:
Yeah! It was real hard work. You had to hoe corn and stuff was
hard anywhere. You didn't get much, if you got ^-00 a day for your
work from daylight to dart, stayed in the field and hoed corn. You
would bring your dinner to the field and you'd stay there all day
long, plus up til sunset, quitting hours,
Q:
I've heard my mother talk about working in tobacco from early
morning til late at night and make 50<i a day. She was really
proud of that; :;he thought it was a lot,
A:
Yeah. That way people raised everything they eat. They raised
their garden-their potatoes, their corn, their beans, and stuff
like that.
Wife:
Your daddy ran a store and he run the post office. You
worked up there, too,
A:
I worked in the store and the post office when I was a little
boy.
Q:
How much school i np; did your parents have?
A:
They didn't have too much; they had up to about the seventh
grade.
Q:
How about your brothers and sisters?
A:
About the same I guess.
Wife:
twelve.
Oh, his daddy, they was twelve of his father. He's one of
�Page 3.
Q:
Now do you think that the schools have changed over the years?
A:
They.....I believe they're different. They was pretty
if
you didn't do what the teacher said you got paddled. You had to
mind pretty good,
Q:
Do you think they're a little bit easier on them now?
A:
I think they are a little bit easier on them now?
Q:
What were the schools like back when you went to school?
A:
I don't know how to answer you on that.
Q:
Well, describe the school situation, maybe, like a one room
school?
A:
They was two rooms. The younger ones went in one room and the
older ones in another, They was two rooms and two teachers when I
started in going to school, and I remember once somebody passed
outside and they killed a black snake and I run to the door to look
at it and the teacher gave me a whooping.
Q:
-Cause you got out of your seat?
A:
Cause I jumped up.
Wife:
He would jump onto that teacher everytime he would see
her in the grocery store after they both was old. I told he
could have waited a little while and not told it so many times,
but it was right funny you know, He would tell it on her.
Q:
Do you remember any of the books you had back then?
A:
There was that old Brown back speller; I don't know whether
you remember that; I forget the name of it. Then we had arithmetic,geography, history, and English book, it was a green book. It's
been so lon^ that I can't remember what.
�Q:
I've heard some people talk about a Blue back speller. Did you
have something like that?
A:
I didn't have that; mine was a Brown back. They had it before
I started.
Q:
How many months did you go to school whin you first started?
A:
We'd go from,,, about three to four months. We were out at
Christmas, about four months school is all we had each year.
Q:
Did you ever fro to what they call subscription school?
A:
No, I didn 1 t.
Q:
What have your occupations been?
A:
Well, T graded lumber from the time I was IB years old for 37
years. I graded.,.was a lumber grader, lumber inspector, rather;
and after that I worked as Justice of the Peace for ID years here
in Boone. I'll tell you something else, I had a lot of weddings
to come before me,
Q:
.Probably young people sneaking off, didn't want anybody to
know anything about it?
A:
They was from every state in the Union to get married,
Q:
When do you think times were hardest to get a job?
A:
That was the time when Hoover was in,,.President. That's the
only time in my life after I was married that I ever was broke; I
got broke under his administration. Got down to a nickel and bought
a cake of soap with that nickel.
Q:
How has the work changed over the years?
A:
Well, they v/as a right smart. I believe it's not as hard as it
was when we was folks.
�Page 5.
Q:
And it's more toward...it's educated oriented. You have to have
a certain amount of education to even get a job,
A:
You do now, nearly a college education to get any job,
Q:
But you know, I think so much emphasis is being placed on
this, I think it is eventually going to get to the point where
the common laborer will make more than the college graduate.
A:
It may come to that later cause the college (graduates) want
easier jobs,
Q:
Well, I've been to college four years and I know that when I
get out, I don'T want a job out here digging ditches.
A:
Well, you have worked toward it,
Q:
It will get to the point where these "high-up" jobs run out,
A:
They will run out; they ain't_ enough jobs for them.
Q:
Right, and you have got to have somebody down here to dig the
ditches, and raise the vegetables, raise the hogs, and do the farmwork, and things like this, and that price will go up awfully high
that people get paid.
Q:
V/hat sorts of churches were in this area?
A:
They was a Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian Churches at that
time. That's about the number of churches,
Q:
To which church did most of the people belong?
As
Well, when I was growing up, most people belonged to the Baptist
Church.
Q:
What were the churches like back then?
�A:
In what way?
Q:
Well, their functions, status in the community. Church going
was about mandatory, wasn't it?
As
Yes, you went to church. You didn't miss a service hardly,
Wife:
Well, you looked forward to going to church; you planned
on it, and you enjoyed it.
Q:
And now, it's getting,.,?
A:
V/ell, you're supposed to be there, but 1 feel like people aren't
as anxious to go as they once was. Lot of people; some aren't.
Q:
Do you think it's now more a. tradition or custom rather than
the person's wanting to go?
A:
V/ell, I wouldn't know about that, but I can tell by myself that
I used to be more interested in going;, I guess it's just,,.and a
lot of people, I've heard them say, I've heard young people say
that was older than I am, whenever they run a revival, I heard
some folks say, some girls and boys, they said they would stop the
revival unless they would come up and show an interest unless
they believed, you know, that salvation, ,,, corning to the alter,
you knowr and so they said, well, they wouldn't run the meeting any
longer; they'd close on Sunday night. So they all made up their
minds to everybody go up to be prayed for in order for the service
to go on; so I really feel like the young people aren't much
different, there are just'more of them.
Q:
How do you feel that the churches have changed over the years,
if any?
A:
There's quite a bit of change. There's a difference in the
preachers; most of them just preach for the money anymore.
�Q:
And they preach what the people want to hear instead of stepping
on their toes a. little bit?
A:
Yeah, If they step on their toes, they want to get rid of them e
Q:
They're not the old-fashioned hell-fire and brimstone preachers?
A:
Right, I know that when we was growing up and then after we
was first married, we'd cook all day on Saturday and get ready
for a revival, and nave cakes and pies and everything fixed in
order so we could go to them, day and night. They'd have services
at 11:00 o'clock in the daytime and then at night,
Q:
I've heard my grandmother talk about cooking on Saturday.
A:
You didn't do much cooking on Sunday.
Q:
She didn't cook at all on Sunday, You ate what she cooked on
Saturday, or you didn't eat at all,
Ai
That's the way people would do,
Q:
How did this community get its name? I've heard it was from
Daniel Boone, is that correct?
A:
Well, that's what we've always heard, but then we have heard,
I don't know whether you have or not, that Watauga came from an
Indian name. I don't know.
Q:
What was the meaning of that name? Do you know?
A:
Rivers, I think. There's a river down here named Watauga
River,
Wife: No, back west. This 5s New River.
Q:
How was the community formed?
A: (Wife)
Well, they had the first jail.,.they used it for a jail.
�rage o.
It: wasn't a jail; it was an old barn righl". over here close to
Grady Farthing's farm, just this side, They held court there, and
then they built a jail. Wasn't the first jail here in Boone burned
up? I think it v/as.
QJ
V/as it just a regular feed barn?
A:
Yes, it was just an old barn, and they said the fleas like to
eat them up, It was riffht down here, and they tied their prisoners
to a wagon wheel,
Q:
They didn't lock him up in a room?
A:
No, they had no room to lock him in. They had nothing; no
place to lock him. They tied him to a wagon wheel. It's right
in sight down here where we live,
Q:
It's still standing?
A:
No, it burned; it's not still standing, (Wife) It was 20
*
years ago; they tore it down. Cause we could see it from our back
porch,
Q:
How has the community changed over the years?
A:
Well, it's all together different from what it used to be.
It wasn't so many people like it is anymore; it's thickly settled
now. They's so much difference from what it used to be when we was
growing up. You had to work so much; all the time you had to rest
was on Sunday. You worked six days a week, I can remember the first
automobile that came to Boone, I got to ride in the first one
that ever come to Boone, The man picked me up and let me ride a
little.
Q:
Do you know whose it was?
�y.
A:
Jeff Robins was the one that had it at the time from Lenoir;
he drove up here. That's the first one I ever seen,
Q:
What kind was it?
A:
Model T: straight fenders, brass radiator,
Q:
My grandfather had the first one in our community, and he didn't
know how to drive it. The man who drove it over thought that he
knew how to drive it. He got in it, and cranked the thing up and
took off, ran over the top of a woodpile and about killed everybody
in there. What was the reaction to the cars coming into the community?
How did the people feel about that?
A:
They thought there wasn't nothing like it. When anybody got
enough money to buy one, they didn't cost much back then, you could
buy a new Model T for $700.
Q:
That was a lot of money at that time wasn't it?
A:
It was a lot of money; you didn't make nothing. Like I told
you a while ago, hoeing corn for ^00 a day. I graded lumber for 21
years, and most I ever got at that was 350 an hour,
Q:
Were there any horses running away, or rearing up, as the cars
came by?
A:
No, not any. The road was narrow, and if they passed, you'd
have to pull out to let things pass, just a one way back then.
Boone here was just... don't think they had any streets, It was just
a one way road through here, and our first mayor,,,I seen our
first mayor that ever was in Boone,
Q:
Who was that?
A:
Lewis Bryant, the first mayor that ever was in Boone.
�Q:
Do you know the date when he was the first mayor?
A:
No, I can't answer that. That was years ago.
Q:
That's interesting, though, that you remember seeing him.
A:
I talked to him. He lived right where the police station is
now.
Q:
Have there been any people in the community that you would
call the decision makers of the community? Who had a big effect
on the outcome?
A:
I can't recall, their names,
Q:
Do you feel that there are any minority groups in the community?
A:
I don't think thai; they are, I think that one's about equal to
the other one.
Q:
I'm sure that some families we,re really poor back then,
A:
There was a lot of them. The county took care of that; they had
a county home built over there. One time my granddaddy went on a
bond for the sheriff, you know; and they didn't have no money. The
sheriff ran away with another woman and took the tax money, The
county home property was his, and he had signed for the sheriff. I
can't recall the sheriff's name. (See story at end of Transcript.)
Q:
The county home was whose property?
A;
It was my Granddaddy Hodges', Holland Hodges, He didn't have
the money to pay the bond off, it was about a $500 bond, and they
took it must have been 100 acres. (Wife) The health office is there
on that property now.
Q:
That was the county home?
�Page 11.
A:
That's where it wan; the land.
Q:
Is that the same thine; that they called the county poor house?
A:
Yes, the county poor house.
Q:
Well, did the people in the community, too?
A:
No, they,..the county put a man and his wife in to look after them,
Q:
What did they do? Serve food? Clothe them?
A:
Yes, a place to sleep.
Q;
Do you have any memories of specific elections in this area?
Any colorful events or happenings?
A:
I don't believe so; they're all about the same to me.
Q:
Democrats fighting Republicans, Republicans fighting Democrats?
A:
That's always going on. You can hear that anytime; same today
as it was back then.
Q:
Did you have any knifings, shootings that arose from politics?
A:
-I can't recall any,
Q:
How did the people in the area tend to vote? Did they lean
toward one party more so than the other one?
A:
They did at'that time. Most everything was Democratic back
then. (Wife) Up til this past year.) It changed a few years ago;
more people cone in, and the population has grov/ed so, you don't
know who's who now,
Q:
I was talking to this one man, and he said that there for a
while you could predict an election accurately by the way people
were registered and the people in the area. But he said that it's
changed so much that there's no way.
�Page 12.
A:
That would weigh the Democrats having a majority registered
here in Watauga County, They have about, seems like almost 600
more Democrats registered than Republicans, but it don't go like
they're registered. You know about that,
Q:
Do you think that politics are dirtier now than they were?
A:
Yes! I think they are...think they are.
Q:
In what way, would you say?
A:
There's too much money being spent to buy votes,
Q:
Too much passing under the table, so to speak?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Do you remember any political figures in the community that
particularly stood out back then?
A: (Wife)
There's a lot of them. There;s a few living, but there's
a lot of them that's gone on that was outstanding. Right at the
present, I can't call too many of their names. But I can remember
my daddy, hearing him say when I was just a little child, that he
followed his father to the election when he was 10 years old.
His folks were Republicans, and he came back and told his mother,
he said, "Mommy, when I grow up I'm going to be a Democrat.", and
he was one of the strongest Democrats there was in the world, I
guess. So, naturally we couldn't be anything else but a Democrat,
and I don't want to be. So- I'm so happy that they were Democrats
when we married, because if he hadn't been, I don't know what would
have taken place. We might not be living here together for over 50
years.
Q:
Have ya'll been married 50 years?
�A:
52, will be 52 years this fall, 51 years last November, So
it's been wonderful that he was Democrat, too, and I think that he
feels the same way about me. Cause he might have took the club to
me if I had been...my politics had been something else. All my
people on both sides are Democrats,
Q:
Well, the Brinkley family over all tends to be Democratic, or
in our area they are,
A:
That's what makes them good people.
Q:
That's the key to it right there?
A:
That's the key to it,
Q:
How did the peoole get around back then? What types of transportati
did they use?
A:
They went around in a buggy or wagon, horseback, steer wagon
a lot of the time,
Q:
Where did the roads run?
A: .The road come right through Tennessee plumb, just one road
on into Lenoir, that way, just one road, There wasn't any side
roads much,
Q:
It was probably just a mud road?
A:
Just a mud road. Through the winter, mud was axle deep to
the wagons. Right through Boone, it was a mud hole through there,
(Wife) It took a week to 'go to Lenoir and back with a load of
produce in the v/agon. It would take that long to sell it, (Husband)
We would go to Tennessee and haul groceries back to my Daddy's
store and be gone a week to Lenoir, and take a week to go down
there and back in a wagon.
�Page
Q:
Where did the railroads run?
A:
There was one run in here,.,There never was but one that come in
and that was Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina.. It
came out of Johnson City, Tennessee; that's the one I told you I
helped them build from Shull's Mill into Boone.
Q:
I bet you could tell rne some experiences you had doing that,
couldn't you?
A:
Yes, I worked for...my boss man learned me how to, in grading
off the right of way, he learned me how to use dynamite and blow
out stumps. He learned me how to blow out stumps with dynamite and
black powder, and to drill in and go through a rock, you know on
105 there's a rock cut down there where the railroad come through,
I carried steal to the steam drill over there when they was building
that cut,
Q:
How much did you get paid working on the railroad?
A:
I got 150 an hour, 10 hours a day,
Q:
When did you start building that railroad?
A:
It was in.,.it come in here 1917-18.
Q:
When was it finished?
A:
I can't recall, I can't recall that; I don't remember. I forget
my dates. Depot still stands at the bus station.
Q:
Is that where it was? '
A:
That's the depot. You can see it right there; go up there and
look at it,
Q:
I remember seeing it now that you mention it; I'd never even
th <~>11 crh +
a'hn!l+
-t-Vi Ei -t-
" h » T v-i rr
i.rh o +•
i +
i.ioc-
o 4-
n i l
�Page 15.
A:
That's ET and WNC depot.
Q:
Did you ever hear it referred to as "Eat Tatars and Wear No
Clothes"9
A:
That's exactly it; "Eat Taters and Wear No Clothes." That's
the name of it. I didn't know whether you heard that. I quoted that
different times.
Q:
I was listening to a tape of a fellow who lived over in Avery
County. It stuck in my mind; I'd never heard it referred to as that
before,
A:
I've heard it many times.
Q:
I'll bet you can probably remember the first telephone in
the community?
A:
It's the kind that hang; on the wall and cranked, you cranked
up.
Q:
What was the community reaction to telephones coming in?
A"
You'd have to...if you wanted to telephone anybody, you'd have
to go a lone; ways. There wasn't many in the community, just one
once in a while. Each person didn't own one. The merchant would
own one; my dad owned one at the store, post office; and that's
the only one in our settlement. (Wife) Well, I was waiting for you
to tell what some folks said about your daddy and the telephone.
You want to tell him about that? (Mr. Hodges) You go ahead. (Wife)
He was talking on the phone and there was some folks that went in
to buy some stuff, groceries or some things. When they got back they
said, theri mother said these boys were, I don't know how many there
was, "Where's the stuff I sent you for?" They said, "We couldn't get
nothing. That Bill Hodges was talking to the wall, and he wouldn't
�16.
Wait on us. "
Q:
That was pretty good about talking to the wall.
A:
That really happened.
Q:
Well, I bet a lot of people.... new things coming in like that
people weren't used to, lots of people probably thought people were
acting strange because of that, maybe.
A: (Wife)
I had two uncles that was jealous over each other, and
so I was visiting.
They lived right close, and they were jealous;
they were brothers, you know.
They were always seeing which one
could raise the biggest stuff, you know.
My uncle said, ^
"You run
over to your Uncle John's and tell him I want to borrow the cross
cut saw. I want to have your aunt make us some punkin pies; I want
to cut a punkin in two."
So I went, and my uncle said, "Well you go
back and tell your other uncle,'George, that I'm half through with a
tater, and he can have the saw soon as I get through."
Q:
Sounds like a tale to me.
A:
That's more like a tale, isn't it?
Q:
Did you ever do any soapmaking?
A:
Yes, I helped make it...help my mother make it.
lye outside in a big ol' pot, you know.
Made it out of
�Q:
There wa.s something about pouring water over wood ashes,
A:
Ashes would make your lye. You'd have a hopper to put your
ashes in and the water. It would come out down here at the bottom,
and you would catch it and make your soap with it.
Q:
Did you ever do any weaving?
A:
No.
Q:
Chairmaking?
A:
Yeah, I've made some chairs; make them yet.
Q:
I'll bet you're familiar with a lot of the old mountain cures
aren't you? Such things as making a poltire out of mud and putting
it on an area,
A:
Make it out of catnip, make tea out of catnip. (Wife) I've
seen my mother use, when children had chest colds, she'd use
lard, you know, and terpentine, and put salt, I don't remember how
it was made, Anyhow she rubbed that on, put it on warm on the chest,
That was supposed to draw out the cold, and I noticed in the
Democrat where Whitener had a piece in the paper about it.
It brought back memories, you know, what he had written.
Q:
Were there any spring tonics? Do you remember any of those?
A:
Oh yes,
Q:
What were they?
A:
Molasses and sulfer. That was terrible. Oh goodness, they had
to run me down, I had just soon about,,,They said we were run down,
you know, and I didn't mind being run down, but I didn't like the
sulfer and molasses.
Q:
What was that supposed to do?
�A:
I don't know; 1 don't have no idea. Well, yes, I do. It was
to build up your blood,
Q:
Sassafrass tea was supposed to thin your blood, wasn't it?
A:
Yeah! But they used it, I guess that's what it was for, I'm
not too sure about that. And what other kind of tea? (Mr. Hodges)
Spicewood tea. Did you ever hear tell of spicewood tea?
Q:
Spicewood tea? No, I don't think so,
A:
It grows up around, . .makes awful good tea. People use that at
the table, drink it just like you would coffee,
Q:
Does it have a spicy flavor?
A:
It's little twigs; you break it up and put water in it and let
it...just like you would tea leaves.
Q:
I've never heard of that,
A:
There was a man that said he was going to bring; him some.
Around Beaver Dam, plenty of it grows there. Up here where I was
raised, there's plenty of it grows there. Grows anywhere that it's
wet.
Q:
I've heard of people using hemlock too. If they had trouble
with their false teeth, they'd rinse their mouth out with the
hemlock tea and it would toughen their gums, they said.
0
Why don't you tell me a little bit about the work you do,
Mr. Hodges? The carving and woodwork you have downstairs?
A:
I make a little of everything from picture frames, men and
v/omen, a Hi Q boards, doll cradles, well, I can't think of
everything. There are so many things that I make. You see a lot
of my picture frames there, the inlaids.
�Q:
Did you make these?
A:
Yes.
.Q:
Do you ever make any pictures out of inlaid wood?
A:
No, I never have done that, made a few letters, cut out a few
letters and made inlaid,
Q:
What do you do with your stuff?
A:
I give most of it away; I've sold a little, not too much.
A woman out of Virginia bought some: these novelty places around
here once in a while want some washboards, (Wife) Dr. Dean's wife
bought some of the Hi Q boards and sent them to Georgia. He has
things a long ways from here.
Q:
How big are the little washboards?
A:
They're 2J- inches by about '•K inches,
Q:
I can remember we had a big one; my grandmother used to wash
clothes on it when I was a child,
A:
Then I got to making them mushrooms; I don't know if they would
sell or not.
Q:
I'm sure they would, too. You'd be surprised. Did you ever
make any molasses?
A:
Oh yeah'. Set up of a night and make them, put them in a boiler,
cane mill. My granddaddy grind it; I'd raise cane and make molasses
and help make them. Put them in a big boiler and a little wood
fire under them; boil them,
Q:
Did you make that (a mushroom pin cushion)?
A:
Yeah, he took off downstairs. That's where he got his pattern;
just looking at that.
�Q:
What do you use that for?
A:
That's a pin cushion. The bottom, top, and stems are stuffed
with cotton.
Q:
Did you make these too? (mice)
A:
Yes.
Q:
What is in these? Some type of gravel?
A:
Beans.
Q:
Beads?
A:
Beans, or you could use birdseed.
Q:
Surely you sell those to craft shops.
A:
I make them things like that, them cabinets,
Q:
You made that cabinet?
A:
Yes, I'm in a little bit of everything;. Made a boy's wagon.
Q:
Did you ever hunt any gens ens?
A:
No, never did, I don't know what it is. I might if I was to
run right onto it. My dad used to hunt it.
Q:
How about flax? I'm riot really sure what that is. Maybe I'm
getting that mixed up with something else.
A:
You must be; I've never heard of that. .
Q:
Have you ever heard of anything called a May apple?
A:
Yes, I've dug that many times.
Q:
What is that?
A:
That's a little...it grows up this way and then you dig the
roots and they have a little May apple on them.
�(Wife)
That's a puzzle-ball pin cushion; it's a puzzle everytime
you put it together. It has 24 pieces. What I mean by puzzle everytime
you put it together, you have to learn everytime you put one together.
Here's Humpty Dumpty,
Q:
How was the courting back then?
A:
You stumped me on that. They weren't calling it that when we
were dating, but our parents, they'called it sparking.
Q:
I've heard that. My father picks at my sister a lot, you know,
and says, "Who're you sparking now?", or something like that.
A:
Our niece came down from Baltimore, and she had a friend with
her and they said, "Are you sparking any?", and she said, "Beg your
pardon?" He said, "Are you sparking?" "Beg your pardon?" So I said
he means are you courting, and the niece knew what he meant, and
she said, "Aw, what they mean is -are you dating?" Well, boys had to
come to the door,
Q:
Well, I think that is gentlemanly,
A:
I do too, I wouldn't allow it today if I had a girl.
Q:
Nothing makes madder than to hear of a boy driving up and
blowing his horn, and here the girl grabs her coat and she goes
running out the door. I think it's a disgrace.
A:
Well, I was used to horses; I didn't care where I run out,
Q:
Well, the horses didn'.t blow their horn did they?
A:
No, they had to come in, but when dark came, that was it. Boys
left. We went to church together, and I think the most fun we had
was walking a mile to get to ride a mile on the Tweetsie. I think
you paid the big amount of 110 for each one,
�22.
Q:
Were there any outlaws, or badmen that you remember back at that
time?
A:
Yeah, there was some.
I can't remember the first, but they were;
meanness has never stopped and never will.
They'd steal and rob
back then, and everything.
Q:
Were there any legends or superstitions that you remember in
this area?
A:
There's been some around that I've heard.
Now,, my Uncle Preston,,
Jerome Preston, they claimed was over there where the Yankees come
through.
He said he could hear the chains rattling of the captured
prisoners; he could hear the chains rattling though.
It might have
bee in his mind; it was a haunted place down off the mountain.
Q:
Any superstitions?
I'm sure there are several superstitions.
A:
Yeah, there's a lot of them;
some people are scared of their
own shadow.
Q:
Do you remember any of thase specifically?
A:
I can't remember those;
Q:
When did the Depression start as best you can remember?
A:
That was back in 19...just after, the Depression was right after
Hoover was elected in 1928.
I tried to forget them.
It started and lasted the whole time
his four years in there, and never stopped 'til after Roosevelt
was elected, and then we could see our way.
go to work.
We could find a job and
They fixed places for us to work;
a day and work.
to start with.
we could get a dollar
Sometimes you had to take it up in a grocery store
You'd work that day and take you to the grocery
�23.
store and get some groceries that day.
haven't had no Depression since that.
And after that was over, we
That's all I remember.
(Wife)
We were awful lucky we didn't have to go on relief} or call for
relief cause we raised garden and had plenty of food to can, you
know, and like that.
So that helped, and we had two children at
that time.
Q:
Now that's the way my mother's family was; they had a farm and
raised everything.
But my father was brought up in a city and they
didn't have any areas to plant a garden,, thens and I've heard him
talk about eating fried pumpkin three times a day.
A:
Oh, yeah.
like that.
You just had to boil potatoes and have milk, and thing?
And when you had money, you bought peanut butter, salmon,
or something like that.
Q:
You were living here in this area during the Depression?
A:
Yes, we lived a mile west of Boone.
Q:
How many were in the family then?
A:
There was four of us.
Q:
How old were the children during the Depression?
A:
The oldest was 10, and the youngest was 8.
Q:
How did the Depression affect working conditions?
A:
You couldn't find a job.
(Wife) There just wasn't any jobs and
there's hardly a day passed that there wouldn't someone that would
come to your door and ask for something to eat and they would just
look so pitiful.
If you had anything at all to divide, you divided
�24.
with them.
Q:
Did you change jobs during the Depression?
A:
No„ I was working for J. Walter Wright Lumber Company at that
time, grading lumber.
being sold.
We couldn't sell anything; no lumber was
You'd get a day now and then.
Q:
How much did you make at that time?
A:
I didn't make but...the most I ever made at that time was about
15C an hour, when I got in any hours, $1.50 a day.
Q:
You're familiar with government projects, such as WPA, CCC...?
A:
(Wife) Our son, he joined up with CC Company.
Q:
What was that?
A:
It was a...you mean where was it?
Q:
What was it?
What was the purpose of it?
A: . Well, it was kind of a training like, you know, when they took
their basic training,, something similar to it, only they took
boys younger, so much younger than....
He was about 15, I guess, 14
or 15; but he didn't like no part of it.
He just wouldn't stay.
had two friends that he wanted to go with so bad.
He
And then they had
a, I can;t remember what it stood for, but NYA, they had that in our
community after the school was, they brought the children to the
Boone School in town, and this was to learn the girls and they got
paid for that, young girls.
�25.
Q:
What crops did you raise during the Depression?
A:
Corn and potatoes, wheat, nearly everything you raise in a garden
Q:
Did you
A:
Cows.
Q:
You made your own butter?
A:
Yes.
Q:
How did you keep that?
A:
Put it in the pen.
Q:
Did you can the meat?
A:
Yes, we canned it and put it in salt.
it, too.
have any animals?
We raised hogs for the winter's meat.
Made sausage and canned
You had to grind it on a hand-grinder.
got so we'd take it to the meat market.
Well,, finally we
You know you never find
any sausage that tastes like that today.
Q:
I guess it's because you had to put so much work into it.
A:
It must have been.
Q:
Were prices higher or lower during the Depression?
A:
Oh, things were lower then.
little then.
Your meat didn't cost but very
You could buy, they called it fatback then, side meat.
Didn't cost but very little then.
�rage
Q:
Were there any new ways of making money that arose?
A:
There was a lot of moonshiners. They'd git out in the hills
around the mountains and make moonshine and sell it. Happened very
often,
Q:
Do you remember any of the banks closing;?
A:
Yeah. I remember the Bank of Boone closing one time. It went
out during the Depression, People lost what they had in it. People's
Bank and Trust Company and Watauga Company Bank, It didn't close.
You couldn't git no money back then. It was awful, rough to get any
money.
Q:
V/hat was the community's reaction to the banks' closing?
A:
Oh it worried the people about that, A lot of people what had
a few dollars in there, they didn't have much. It worried them awful,
They never did git it. I don't know whatever happened to it,
Q:
Is there anyone in particular you blame for the banks closing?
A:
No, I didn't have any money in at that time, so I didn't blame
nobody. I didn't have nobody to blame,
Q:
Did the schools change during the Depression?
A:
Well, there wasn't much difference in the schools then,
Q:
How about your father's country store?
A:
He credited it all out and went bankrupt. He lost everything he
had. He credited it out. I think he had $5000 on his books back
then, and he couldn't buy no more,
Q:
That was a. goldmine~$5000.
A:
Yes, you had plenty if you had $5000, He credited it out on
the books he kept. I don't know whatever went with the books he had.
�Q:
Was there any change in the churches?
A:
No, there didn't seem to be any change then,
Q:
V/hat do you think caused the Depression?
A:
I can't answer that for I just don't know,
Q:
Who was hurt worse by it?
A:
Poor people was hurt worse than anybody. (Wife) The working man.
My daddy told about a man saying that during the Depression, that
he was supposed to be a Democrat; he'd be hap^y if a Republican
went back in cause he could save more money while the Republican
was in because he didn't have to pay as much for his work hands,
Q:
What do you think was best about the Depression, if anything?
A:
I didn't see nothing best about it, That's the worst ever...
(Wife)
Well, the neighbors, I think, loved each other more. I
think that was a good thing. And when any neighbor got sick in
the community, they wasn't just one would go to see about you.
They was a lot of good things in that way.
Q:
What do you like best about the way things are today?
A:
Well, I enjoy good roads.
Q:
How about you, Mr, Hodges?
A:
Well, I find that today, you can go wherever you please and
stay wherever you please.
Q:
If you could change anything about the way things are today,
what would they be?
A: (Wife)
I'd wish for peace all over the world more than anything
else, and I'd love to have our children close to home for one thing.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
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Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-17
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dave Hodges, April 4, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Dave Hodges had many different careers throughout his life including working at a lumber factory and serving as justice of peace in Boone.
Mr. Hodges talks about religion and what church was like as a child in the early 1900s. He also explains the community of Boone including the history and the differences in the years passed. Mr. Hodges explains the reaction of the community to new inventions like the car and the telephone. He also talks about local traditions such as home remedies, carving and wood cutting, and dating. To end the interview, he discusses his memories of the Great Depression and the effect it had on the community.
Creator
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Brinkley, Bill
Hodges, Dave
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
4/4/2014
Rights
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Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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27 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape56_DaveHodges_1973_04_04M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Boone, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Boone N.C.
carving
Great Depression
home remedies
religion
wood cutting
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/fa8d8ef7f21a64c763c3201203e45c30.pdf
efb8ee9d2d3f7ef22dc653d291e9021b
PDF Text
Text
INTERVIEW WITH BOB GUY
Bob:
there.
My grandfather and grandmother in Marion started two miles from
And in order to get there, we had to get there on the Tweetsie
Railroad to Johnson City and spend the night and ride the Clinchfield
Railroad from there to Marion the next day.
forty minutes used to take two days.
we set our watches back.
A trip th&t now takes about
That's one thing and then of course
Tweetsie in those days,..., we came down from Boone
every morning about 8:30 and you come up from Johnson City in the
afternoon at four.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Did it go back behind the house?
Yes, you could see it out the back door.
Interviewer:
Bob:
It went right by the house.
Would you talk a little bit about when you were born?
About the time I was born we did'nt have any doctors in thi s
county and my mother had to go to Marion where I was delivered on Christmas
day in 1918. I was the third of seven children.
Interviewer:
She must have known when you were going to come home to
make that trip.
How many people were in your family?
Bob:
Two boys and five girls.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Are most of them living around here now?
I have one sister in Philadelphia, one brother in Raleigh,
two sisters in Salisbury, the rest are here.
Interviewer:
Do you want to talk some of your father?
�My father was born in Stanton, Virginia and raised in Salem, Virginia.
HE came to N. C.
when he was twelve years old.
He rode a horse into
Newland in 19]2 when the county was organized and started the Avery County
Bank.
Interviewer:
What was your family life like?
Was thenealot of
emphasis on the "family"?
Bob:
Idon't recall that much about that because my mother was deaf
and had seven kids.
My baby sister was just a year old when she died.
But mother could always read lips and she put a baby to bed.
She always
slept with one hand on the baby so that when it woke up she could feel
it move without hearing.
That's about the only thing I remember about
my childhood.
Interviewer:
What kind of things did you do when you were little?
What pastimes did you have?
Bob:
When I was little ther were'nt any cars around here, as I remember
ther was one bicycle.
ride it to the
then;
df.po't'
We used to pay the boy who owned it a nickel to
and back.
That was our method of mobility back
and swinging and fishing and trapping, and that was about it.
those days we had alot o-f' chestnuts.
Interviewer:
Bob:
You still have one in your yard.
That's the black keeled-over tree.
We used to have it in the
backyard.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Do you ever have any reunions?
No, not a family reunion, is that what you mean?
Interviewer:
Of course you visit alot.
Jane comes down.
In
�Interviewer:
Was that the Dr. Sloop who founded Crossnore?
Can we
talk a little bit about h .m?
Bob:
I'd rather you get the information from him.or rather from
Martha
because she knows all that down cold.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Do you see it any different now?
Well, do you want me to describe my first game of post office?
Interviewer:
Bob:
What was courting like then?
All right
No, that was about the limit of courting back then.
Different people
in the community would have a party maybe once a week and the romancing
consisted of a game of postofficg, .
Interviewer:
Bob:
Yes, it's alot different now.
There wasn't any cars and you just had to find somebody's home to
do alittle romancing in.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Do you remember any outlaws around this area?
We had murders all the time.
attention to it.
movie a week.
When I was a kid, I didn't pay any
We'd got to the show every Saturday night.
It was a silent movie.
There was one
There was always a fight at that.
There is something I remember - if we had a nickel extra, we'd buy a bottle
of pop with it and you get an ice pick and punch a hole in "the top of
it so it would blast out through the movie.
Interviewer:
Are there any superstitions you remember from when you
were little or legends?
Bob:
Myifiother was the most superstitious woman in the world, I still see
things around the house she'd be superstitious about
Interviewer:
Bob:
Like what ?
Like walking under a ladder, stepping across a broom-
My mother was
�terribly superstitious.
Interviewer:
Bob:
What did she do if she did step across a broom?
She'd put her kids to bed if she thought one of them was involved.
She
made us got to bed.
Interviewer:
Did you ever hear your father "talk about the civil war
or anything?
Bob:
No, all his people being from Virginia, they were real southerners, but
he never said too much about it.
In this section of the country , the
civil war is never discussed too much.
Bob:
I think that if you'll go back in history of Avery county, you'll
find that the reason it is Republican is because the people up here supported
the north in the civil war,
Interviewer:
they did not support the south.
I've heard that and that the peopledown in the Piedmont were
a little bit upset.
Bob:
That's true that's why it is still Republican.
Interviewer:
I guess one thing, they didn't have any slaves around here, did
they?
Bob:
No, these people are still meek and Republican.
Because there's
no color conformity, people saw no reason to fight because there weren't any
slaves.
Interviewer:
this area.
One thing, we think is important is about the depression in
I want to ask you if you noticed any shortage of food or any hard-
ships from the depression at all
Bob:
Not personally, I don"t -
I remember the way people worked.
work all day for maybe .75 or $.80.
They'd
But to me, I couldn't conceive of any-
thing being wrong with it at the time because I was just a kid and $.80
to me then was a tremendous amount of money.
�Interviewer:
Did you ever have a garden?
when I was a kid.
We had corn, potatoes, and we had gooseberries until
they had the blight.
bushes down.
Oh, we always had a garden
Then , of course, we had to cut our gooseberries
We had grape arbors - everything that you
have on a farm;
cows, pigs,.,.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Then you never had a scarcity of food or anything.
Oh no, we always had plenty of food - just common food, grits, potatoes
and eggs
Interviewer:
You talked about when you went to school.
Where was the
school?
Bob:
I went to grammar school and through highschool at Newland.
I went
to college at the University of Alabama and University of North Carolina,
spent five years in At lanta and got out of the army in '46 and haven't been
back since
Interviewer:
Was the school real small?
What was it like?
Was it
particularly like elementary school?
Bob:
The thing I remember most about it was that I went to second grade
and third grade in one year and third and fourth grade in one year because
you didn't have the teachers that you
Interviewer:
do now.
Did you find yourself having alot of teachers for a
couples of grades in a row?
Bob: We had the same teacher maybe two or three times.
Interviewer:
Do you see any difficulty in the schools nowadays?
�Bob:
Reading, writing, and arithmetic-
Interviewer:
Bob:
with a hickory stick[
So you went into the army after college?
Yes
Interviewer:
Do you remember having an active religious life when you
were young?
Bob:
No, it's just been a normal protestant Presbyterian life all my
life.
All my people are Presbyterians.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Ive been brought up that way.
Have there been alot of get-together s
with church?
Well, I've always thought of our family as a religious family
Interviewer:
Do you see any difference now in
the church from the way it
was ?
Bob:
No, I think it still has the same basis it always had.
Interviewer- Do you know how Newland got it's name?
Bob:
From the Lieutenant Governor W. G. Newland from Lenoir.
Lt. Gov. of the state fron 1912 to 1915.
Waightsill Avery.
He was the
The county was named for Col.
The county agent, his descendant,..., his name is
Waightsill Avery.
Interviewer:
Do you want to describe Newland a little bit... the
way you remember it?
Bob:
Well, all there is to Newland is a courthouse, a bank, and it runs 3/8
of a mile from the courthouse.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Well, when I grew up, they were dirt streets.
Interviewer:
Bob:
This has been paved then
Now they were paved.
Have alot of people moved in around there?
Oh the people are entirely different.
�The old people are gone or deceased.
Interviewer:
Bob:
There is more or less a new breed now.
How are they different?
Well, most of the people that used to be here were mountain
neighbors.
Now folks are here from all over the country; Charlotte,
Florida, New York, anywhere, you can think of.
You have people who aren't
natives of Avery County
Interviewer:
What were the mountain people like, you know that was diff-
erent about them?
Bob:
Well, the only thing I
can say about the people from here is that
they were strict, hardworking, honest, religious, and just fine people.
Interviewer:
Youve talked a little bit about this and I guess there's
a pretty big difference now . Do you notice any change in politics or
government?
Bob:
It is still three to one Republican.
Interviewer:
You have talked some of the railroad.
when the first cars came in?
Bob:
I think it'll stay that way.
Do you remember
Did they change the area?
The station master at Tweetsie Railroad had the first car that I
ever remember.
It was a 1918 Ford.
The first Car my family had was a 1928
Stoddard as I remember.
Interviewer:
That's funny that the station master had one. Who'd
have thought he'd be against them.
Bob:
He drove the mail from the depot to the post office.
Tweetsie.
But that's curiosity.
It came in from
The railroad wasn't called Tweetsie theft.
It was named that after it was washed away.
Interviewer:
Bob:
What did thgy call it?
The kids called it " Eat taters and we<jr no clothes"
Interviewer:
Do you remember any mountain crafts or cust oms you were
involved in yourself- H aoamn^i
^
t J-"«*xHi2 *f*ii"riniT
o 9 *-ui. J.HEJ
.
.T
WR-air"! »-»i"»
O " ••'^civj.ii^
i
.
r*hQ-i-K.«^i
r
I, or
�things like that ?
Bob:
No
Interviewer:
Bob:
Did you know any craftsmen?
Oh, I knew some.
Beech Mountain.
Interviewer:
Bob:
At
They were at the CrossnCfe School and over in
that still goes on but I was never involved in it.
What kinds of things do they do?
Crossnore, it's handweaving,
And over in Beech mountain, they
make different kinds of toys.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Did you ever play with any of those?
Oh yes
Interviewer:
Do you
remember making things like
molasses, apple butter
and things like that?
Bob:
We called it sorghum,
It was molasses.
Everybody made that
and most people made home brew because you couldn't buy any alcoholic beverages
so people made wine and homebrew at home.
Interviewer:
Bob:
No, I am not sure.
It's a homemade beer.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Do you know what home brew is?
Do
you know how to make it?
I know how to make it but it's illegal.
Interviewer:
Iguess
not.
Do you remember af\y
I'd better not discuss it.
cures your mother used on
you when you got sick?
Bob:
There was always castor oil, as well as I remember.
Interviewer:
I guess you didn't like that too much
«
Bob:
The doctor always came to see us
and there was some wh)te oil that
he gave us and I didn't know what it was but my mother always thought maybe
it was like castor oil for whatever ails you.
�Interviewer:
Bob:
We always have in this counrty, especialy the ones who are farming still
Interviewer:
Bob:
Did alot &>{-• PE°ple have to rely on their gardens?
I guess then that there wasn't that much poverty.
I don't think that there was any hunger because everyone was more or
less self-supporting.
I think there's been more hunger during a snow-
storm than there was during a depression.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Do you remember any particularly bad snow storms?
One bad one we had was wh .n they had to fly helicopters in with food
for the people,
I have pictures where the snow was higher than the
automobile/
Interviewer:
Bob:
When was that ?
I don't remember but I believe it was in 1940.
I think that was the
year that it snowed every day all winter.
Interviewer:
I remember Bill was talking about the snow of 1936.
They had
to keep the store closed about a week.
Bob:
It could've been that year,
I am not sure.
It was before I went into
the service.
Interviewer:
Did you ever have any large calamities or fires or anything
like that in Newland?
Bob:
Newland's burned up completely twice.
Interviewer:
Bob:
What happened then or do you remember?
One of the first times it burned up,
second time, I was home.
I was in Asheville.
The
The whole block down here burned down and the
wholeblock behind the bank. That was about in 1958 and 1959.
Interviewer:
Bob:
I guess there was alot going on
Then, of course,
he flood in 1940 washed
.way all the railroad
and we were without any, you couldn't get to any of the highways for
about two weeks.
It washed all the raods, railroads, and the highways
out.
�Interviewer:
And what did they do to help this situation?
Did the state
send people ?
Bob:
Well, the state of course sent all the equipment up here that they
could and it was opened up as soon as they could but the railroad never was.
Interviewer:
Were there alot of people out trying to help people that had
been put into hardship
Bob:
Oh Heavens, yes.
There were many houses washed away
The redcross were
around for about two or three monthes.
Interviewer:
Bob:
didn't know it had hit this area that bad.
Oh, it was terrrible, especially in Pineola when the lake washed
out over there.
Interviewer:
It washed out a whole community over there.
I was thinking that it h it lower areas.
Down in Deep Gap
for instance, I know they had a really bad time down there.
Bob:
We had it as bad as anyone here.
Interviewer:
Bob:
Is Ngwland,... I guess you'd call this a valley, right?
It was old Feim's Cove that's what it was called. Then, it was
named the town.
It was an old Indian settlement
There are still Indian
graves around here.
Interviewer:
Bob:
You know of that?
We used to play around them when we were kids and dig around arrow-
heads.
Interviewer:
Do you remember seeing any Indians up here?
Interviewer:
Bob:
No
Interviewer:
I guess they're all down in Cherokee now.
Bob they were probably here a hundred or two hundred years ago.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-14
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Guy, March 12, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Guy was born on December 25, 1918 in Marion, North Carolina. He attended school in Newland and continued is education at the Univeristy of Alabama and the University of North Carolina. Mr. Guy was also in the army and was realeased in 1946.
Mr. Guy talks a little about the Tweetsie Railroad during his childhood. While describing his childhood he also talks about courting, schooling, and superstitions. Mr. Guy also mentions the Great Depression. Mr. Guy describes the history of Newland, North Carolina and compares the current conditions of the community to that of his childhood. Mr. Guy talks about local crafts and traditions including homemade remedies and house gardens. Mr. Guy concludes the interview speaking of past natural disasters such as snowstorms, fires, and the flood of 1940.
Creator
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White, Pam
Guy, Robert
Source
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<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
3/12/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
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10 pages
Language
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English
English
Type
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document
Identifier
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111_tape36_RobertGuy_1973_03_12M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Newland, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Newland (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Newland
Community life--North Carolina--Newland--History--20th century
crafts
Great Depression
homemade rememdies
Newland
schoolhosuse
Tweetsie Railroad
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/58ff95d2b028b2ec93c0758972e26588.pdf
1049511367f11e1e67f8b698cefd232a
PDF Text
Text
AOH #39
Page 1
This is an interview with Mr. Stanley Harris, Sr. for the
Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley at Boone on
March 20, 1973.
Q:
Mr. Harris, could you give us your age and place of birth?
A:
Well, I was born in Johnson County, Tennessee, where the
name of the place was Trade, which is just over the line from
North Carolina, October 31, 1882.
Q:
How long have you lived in this community?
A:
When I was two years old, my father moved to what is now
Montezuma, N. C. and I stayed there until I finished high school
and in 1902 I went to college at Athens, Tennessee which was
at that time part of U. S. Grant University, main plant being
located in Chattanooga, but the liberal arts department was at
Athens.
That has since changed to Tennessee Wesleyan College.
I graduated in 1902, and took, a post graduate course at what was
then the American University at Harriman, Tennessee.
that was sold and the American University was closed.
Later,
At the
close of the school in 1903, I went to work for a furniture
factory in Harriman, Tennessee and a year later moved to
Lexington, Kentucky and worked there in a furniture store as
a salesman.
In 1907 I became the assistant secretary of the
YMCA at Lexington and in 1912 became the secretary of the YMCA
at Frankford, Kentucky, and in 1916 became the state boys work
secretary of theYMCA.
Correction!
I went to Frankford as the
YMCA secretary in 1907, and in 1908 started a Boy Scout troop
under the British Scout Association which troop was recognized
and chartered in December, 1908 and became so far as we can find
�2.
any history the first chartered Boy Scout troop in the United
States.
After I became the state boy's work secretary, my
headquarters were moved to Louisville and the Boy Scout troop
in Frankford was expanded and a council organized with four
troops in Frankford.
In 1917 I went with the National Council
as a special field commission and remained with the National
Council of Boy Scouts of America until October 1, 1947 when I was
automatically retired because I had reached the age of 65.
I spent a few months in South Alabama where I had a little property,
then came back to Chattanooga whece I was associated with Jake
Bishop in General Insurance and for a time, lived at Johnson
City.
In 1948 we came back to Watauga County primarily because
in 1930 and '31, we had built a very modern residence across
Cove Creek from Henson's Chapel Methodist Church.
At that time
it was called Amantha, and we lived there until we traded that
property with Gene Wilson and officially moved to Boone.
1949 Watauga County celebrated its 100th anniversary,
In
and I
was elected president of the Watauga'.Centennial, and we produced
a type of play called "Echoes of the Blue Ridge" and published
a brief history written by Dr. Whitener as a history of Watauga
County.
In 1912 after graduation from the Grant University
Branch at Athens, I came back to Watauga County as (principal
of Cove Creek Academy which was an imaginary high school and
taught school until about the middle of January, 1903 when I
went to the American University for a short post graduate
course, ant it was at Cove Creek Academy that I met Mary Swift
then a student, which in 1919 became my wife.
We lived in Memphis
for a while and then moved to Chattanooga and eventually came back
�3.
to Watauga County to live, and the family has been here ever since.
In 1949 I recommended to the Chamber of Commerce that we should
develop industry to balance what was then a college and tourist
business as about the only industry.
The Board of the
Chamber
of Commerce was not sympathetic at that time to developing industry, but within a year or so, that became one of their major
projects, and as secretary of the industry committee, I directed
the campaign to supplement the purchase price of property for
IRC, and had an important part in bringing industry to Boone,
which was the first of the major industries coming here.
Later
the industry committee arranged with Shadowline to establish a
plant here, and after that, we found that Blue Ridge Show Co.
was disappointed in the location they had chosen for a new plant,
and persuaded the management to investigate Boone.
That was
other being a trip to New York made by Glenn Andrews and myself,
to interview Mr. Herb, then the president of the parent company
and he agreed to investigate Boone.
We did all the preliminary
work necessary to get Blue Ridge Shoe Co. to come to Boone,
including sale of bonds on their property, most of which was
bought finally by the Northwestern Bank, though several thousand s
of dollars of bonds were bought by local citizens.
Later, the
industry committee was successful in persuading Vermont American
to establish their plant in Boone, and each of these instances, we
had to supplement the land purchase for the new company, and I
had the privilege of conducting the finance campaign, all of
which was easily successful.
One of my big contributions to
Boone and Watauga County was as a member and the chairman of the
board of Watauga Hospital, and conducted the finance campaign to
�4.
to rennovate and improve the then Watauga County Hospital building.
This resulted in our acquiring our modern surgical department and
a very successful surgeon.
Also, with tie help of the state and
the Federal Government to build a nurses home all of which became
part of Watauga Hospital.
Later, when the people of the county
divided the money through bonds, the modern Watauga Hospital, this
property was transferred to the college and later became part of
the equipment of Appalachian State University.
If I have been any
value to Watauga County primarily it has been in developing these
industries and providing opportunity for people in Watauga County
to get employment at good wages, and this has resulted in many
homes and smaller businesses that would not have come without these
manufacturing industries to provide the employment.
I'm still
secretary-treasurer of the industry committee and a member of the
board of most of the organizations that continued to have a responsibility except to encourage and promote them.
We built the
building for Shadowline and they operated it on a rental basis for
a few years and then bought it, and we bmilt the building for
the Blue Ridge Shoe Co. which they still operate on a rental basis.
Same is true with Vermont American which is operated on a rental
basis as far as the building is concerned.
The "Echoes of the
Blue Ridge" finally developed into "Horn in the West" and has
been one of the great advertising projects for Boone and Watauga
County.
It resulted from an invitation to Kermit Hunter to be
the speaker at the Chamber of Commerce where we persuaded him
to write the story, and we conducted a finance campaign for the
money to build the theatre for "Horn in the West" and again I
had the privilege of being the director of the finance campaign.
That's about the story of my connection with the development of
industry and the "Horn in the West".
I have remained as an
�5.
active worker in the Chamber of Commerce, but recently no v&ry
major projects.
Now, what other questions you want?
Q:
Weren't you also connected with Coleman's Tobacco Warehouses?
A:
Well, soon after I came here probably in 1950, Coleman employed
me as a sales supervisor and at that time had the radio program
promoting the tobacco warehouse and Boone as a tobacco market.
I'm still the sales supervisor for Coleman, though we have not
had a radio program as such for the last five years.
Before
Warehouse #1 burned, the year before that we sold in excess of
6 million pounds of tobacco at the Boone market.
Less than 1/3
of that tobacco came from Watauga County, and a considerable
proportion of it came from Tennessee and Virginia, but the tobacco
warehouse in Boone hasbeen a great help to the farmers, not only
in Watauga County, but in this whole section, and last year sold
in excess of 4 million pounds for mighty close to $3 million.
Q:
You organized the first Rotary Club, is that correct?
first
director?
A:
I was one of the group that organized the Rotary Club in Boone
and because I had previously been a Rotarian was elected the
district governor for District 780 which included all of Western
N. C. from Charlotte and West Jefferson through to Murphy some
40 clubs.
I'm still active in Rotary; I think it is a great service
organization.
Q:
What I'd like to ask you now is a few questions on the Depression.
When did the Great Depression start as best you can remember?
A:
Well, the Depression started in 1929.
We had had a very prosperous
�6.
period after the war closed, and things were going great when the
Stock Market had a tremendous setback, and by 1931 we were in
perhaps the worst depression we had ever had.
This depression
didn't seriously effect me because I was then employed actually
by one of the Rockefeller Organizations, and they didn't cut my
salary, but salaries went down in many instances, more than 50%
and thousands of people were out of employment.
It was during
that time that I decided to build a rock house over in Cove Creek
and believe it or not, purchased well finished lumber at $14
a thousand, employed labor only one carpenter on the job got
more than 350 an hour, and he as the foreman in building the house
made a little more than that but not too much.
Common labor
could have been had for 100 an hour, but I couldn't persuade
myself to go quite that low and paid 150 an hour for common
labor.
The rock that built the house was delivered to the site
for a dollar a yard, and even the rock mason made about 750 an
hour which is not much more than 10% what the same would cost
today, and while we later sold the Cove Creek house to Gene
Wilson and his wife, we decided to live in an apartment, and
not finding what we wanted, we bought the lot on W. Queen St.
and built Westmont Apartments which five or six years ago we
sold to a corporation which now owns them, but I still manage the
apartments.
Q:
Where were you living at the start of the Great Depression?
A:
Well, we were living on Cove Creek though I was travelling
out of New York and came home about once a month for a few days,
and sort of kept track of things, but Mary and the children run
the house.
�/ "••
Q:
How many were in the family at that time?
A:
We had two children:
7.
Stanley, Jr. who was born in 1923.
Wait
a minute, he was born in 1920, and Martha was born in 1923.
Q:
Was there a scarcity of food dtiring that time?
A:
No scarcity of food.
The scarcity was anything to buy it with,
and since my salary was continued, I made more clear money from
-"]?
1930 to 1936 than I had ever made-jfeior to that.
Q:
Did you raise any crops?
A:
We had a big garden, but as far as farming is concerned, I didn't
do any farming, anything that was done on the farm was done on a
rental basis, and that was not a cash render, but a percentage of the
income.
But we had a big garden, and I got some prestige as a grower
of roses, for we had a very beautiful rose garden.
Q:
What animals did you have on the farm?
A:
Well, part of the time we had a milk cow or two which Stanley
learned to milk as a 10 year old youngster, and we usually kept a
horse which he could ride or plow, but we made no attempt to be
farmers, but we did have a good vegetable garden along with the roses.
Q:
Were you familiar with any of the government projects during
the Depression?
A:
Not too much familiar with government projects during the Depression,
though during WW I, I was the federal director of the boys' working
reserve which organized boys to work to produce food during the war,
and a big part of that was done by Boy Scouts who produced the gardens
especially the big garden in Washington city which was down on the
�8.
peninsula furnished vegetables not only for the White House, but
Walter Reed Hospital, major hotels in Washington, and was honored
frequently by a visit from Mrs. Wilson, wife of the President, and
on a few occassions President Wilson accompanied Mrs. Wilson to
the garden for she always picked up her own vegetables twice a week.
I didn't do the technical work; that was done by a man from the
agricultural department who supervised that big garden, but I promoted
the idea of boys doing things for the government not only making
gardens, but distributing literature, make Black Walnut surveys,
and numerous and sundry other things, but I had very little to do
with government projects during the Depression period.
Q:
Were prices higher or lower during the Depression?
A:
They were down at the bottom.
I don't know the figures, but
certainly meat prices weren't much more than 10% of the present price
today, and as far as I have any memory, there was an abundance of
food if you had the price to pay for it.
Q:
Did new ways of making money arise due to these conditions?
A:
I didn't make any money except my salary until I retired, but
since I retired I made considerable money out of projects I've been
interested in.
Q:
Do you remember any of the banks closing?
A:
Oh, yes.
The Watauga County Bank in which my wife and children
kept their deposit was closed, and their deposit frozen.
That
didn't affect me very much because I had continued to keep my account
in a bank in Chattanooga which, while it was frozen for a short time,
reorganized and went right on in business, and my frozen deposit was
�9.
promptly reinstated.
But there was another bank or two in tte county
that was closed and if the Northwestern Bank hadn't taken over the
assets of the Watauga County Bank, the IE would have been a worse depression
in Watauga County.
But the Northwestern Bank took over the assets
of the Watauga County Bank and some months earlier Mrs. Harris sold
her stock in the Watauga County Bank, but most of the stockholders,
in fact, I suppose all of the stockholders lost their stock, and not
only that, they had to put up an amount equal to the base value of
their stock which was $100 a share before the Northwestern Bank took
it over.
And that was a real depression.
Q:
What were the community reactions to the banks closing?
A:
Well, of course everybody that had any interest in ttee bank,
particularly the stockholders were very much concerned and some of
them very bitter at the officers of the bank.
But they had loaned
too much money to too many people that couldn't pay and therefore
there was nothing that the officers of the bank could do but accept
the closing when that was decreed by the Federal Government.
Q:
Whom do you blame for the collapse of the banks?
A:
Oh, I think the officers of the bank were too liberal in their
loaning money, therefore, had a good many notes that weren't collectable.
Don't think that there was any one individual that was particularly
responsible.
It was the policy of the bank to loan money particularly
to farmers and a number of the farmers not only couldn't pay their notes,
but some of them lost their farms and that was one of the reasons
got so bitter at the bank.
�10.
Q:
Did the schools change very much during the Depression?
A:
All the schools went on as far as the county schools are con-
cerned, teachers were paid $25, $35, or $45 a month but that was in
line with other things at that time so as well as I observed there
wasn't much let down in public school situation.
Q:
Did tfee businesses and country stores change very much?
A:
Well, some of the businesses went into bankruptcy, but not too
much change in the major businesses.
They weren't making money, but
nobody else was making money at that time so they went along with
the crowd.
Q:
What do you think caused the Depression?
A:
Well , I had an experience in connection with the Depression that
always stood out with me.
I went as the guest of a very prominent
stockbroker in New York to a dinner in Dallas.
Everybody was asking
him questions about how to get rich on the Stock Market, and he
finally got a little irritated at that attitude and g^ve them a good
lecture about trying to make money without working for it, and told them
that if that attitude kept up there was going to be a depression,
and hence I was sort of close to it.
What happened was, as he told
me later, he went back to New York and had the stocks that he held
analyzed and began to sell the stocks that they thought were dangerous,
and as they began to sell, prices began to go down.
I've always
thought that the fact of his starting to sell stocks was one of the
basic reasons why stocks began to go down.
Because if he were selling
stocks at a lower price, pretty soon everybody was looking for them at
that price.
And as a result, stocks went down, and that was the
beginning of the Great Depression.
Fact of it is, I had some stock
�11.
that I paid as much as $20 a share for that went down to $1.25 a
y*''
share.
I didn't well(mine for several years after the Depression
was over and finally sold them for $60 a share instead of the $1.25
I would have gotten for them in 1931 or '32.
And that was an
illustration of what happened in the stock market.
Q:
Who was hurt worst by the Depression?
A:
Well, the common people are always hurt worst.
Laborers/ small
investors, small businesses—they were the ones that were really hurt.
Q:
Well, what do you think was best about the Depression?
A:
What was what?
Q:
What do you think was best about the Depression days?
A:
Well, it probably brought out the stamina of the American people
and showed that by hard work, they could still live even if they
didn't live like they had been accustomed to living.
But I think
it emphasized the importance of hard work and sticking to it which
would be valuable today.
Most of our trouble?today are because
people don't want to work and a good many people don't want to put
out their best at work, whether it be in building a house or running
a business.
Q:
How is life different today from life during the Depression?
A:
Well, it's only different in the luxuries we have.
had automobiles.
Very few people
You could buy a good Ford or a Chevrolet for four
or five hundred dollars, but most people didn't have four or five
hundred dollars.
�12.
Q:
What do you like best about today's way of life?
A:
Well, I like the comfort of feeling that I have a reasonable
income, likely to have as much as I actually need as long as I live
which I hope to be at least another 10 years because I'm only 90
and I want to get to be 100.
Q: .if you could change anything about the way things are now, what
W^
!
wouj-d/jwant to change and why?
A:
I'd want to change the willingness to work more than anything
else, and I think people are happier and live longer when they're
working and that's the reason I keep working now because if you•
keep busy whatever your job may be and try to put out the best you
can you don't have so much time to worry about the aches in your
knees and your back and so forth.
There could be a different
attitude toward life and willingness
to be done.
End of Tape #39
to do anything that needs
�Tape #40
13.
Q:
I would like to ask you some questions concerning your childhood.
A:
As a kid, I was connected with a lumber compantf.
There were
seven of we boys, and we did whatever work there was done on the
farm, but I happened to be down among the younger ones and the older
ones didn't like farm work, so by the time I was 12 or 13 I was the
chief on the farm, what little farming we did and one of the big jobs
was to get my two younger brothers to do what I thought was their part
in taking care of the farm.
Father did encourage it to get through
high school and we all did.
I was the only one of the three younger
boys that finished college, but we all got through high school.
But we didn't have any of the luxuries and we worked even as kids.
I
think one of the troubles with youth today and I don;t think there are
nearly as many of them as people think, but one of the troubles
is children are given too much and are not required to make an
adequate return for it.
I think you can spoil the child by giving
him too much maybe worse than if you made it pretty hard on them.
Q:
Could you give me the name of your parents and their birthplace?
A:
My father was William J. Harris and he was born out in the county
from Abingdon, Virginia, where his father owned considerable farmland.
My mother was born just this side of Mountain City, Tennessee,
on the road about 2 miles this side of Shouns.
Their education
was limited to grade school: I don't think that either one of them
ever went to college, but they appreciated the importance of their
children in getting an education, and while they didn't have back then
in those days too much money to help them through college they did
encourage us to make our own way so I worked my way through college
and that was good for me.
Q:
How much schooling did your brothers and sisters have?
�14.
A:
All of them went to high school, what in those days was
considered high school.
My brother Kemp went to college to study
to be a minister and had the best education of any of us including me,
but he didn't go to college until after he had decided to go into
the ministry and that was when he was 25 or 30 years old.
He was like
a lot of other ministers now, young ministers, he went to college
and pastored a small church someplace, and managed to get through
college that way.
Q:
When you came to this area what sorts of churches were here?
A:
Well, over at Cove Creek where I taught school and where I lived,
there was a Methodist and a Baptist Church, Henson's Chapel and
Cove Creek Baptist Church which is still there, and so far as my
knowledge is concerned there was an Episcopal Church, a Methodist
Church, and a Baptist Church in Boone.
But I did not know too much
about them even when I was teaching school at Cove Creek.
Q:
To which church did most people in the community belong?
A:
Baptist.
Q:
What were they like at that time, and how have they changed?
A:
I don't see too much change ao far as the religious attitudes
concerned.
I think they're a little bit more liberal toward other
churches than they used to be, that's true to both Baptist and Methodist.
I think my father tried to give me the impression that all Catholics
had horns and tails and I learned that people in the Catholic Church
were just as fine as the people in some other churches so that seems
to be a drifting of not being so antagonistic toward some other and
I think that's true between the Baptist and the Methodist, all the others.
�15.
Q:
How did this community get its name?
A:
Well, as far as I know it was the legend of Daniel Boone that gave
this particular community its name.
How much Daniel Boone really ever
stopped here is still a question; he undoubtedly passed through a few
times.
Q:
How and why was it formed in
A:
I don't know the answer to that; I suppose it just sort of grew up
as most places do to start with.
the first place?
I think the Dougherty boys and the
school has had a tremendous influence on the building of the town.
They
just had vision, they didn't have much to work with back in those days
but they got a school started and kept it going.
Q:
How has the community changed over the years?
A:
Well, it has changed a lot in the comforts of the people that live
in the community, other than that I don't see too much change.
A
large proportion of the people now are making pretty good wages and
they're living them up pretty largely.
Businesses have grown, some of
them tremendously.
Q:
Who have been
the community decision makers?
A:
Well, the folks at the Northwestern Bank have been a tremendous
influence in making the community.
Alfred Adams has been chairman
of the industry committee, and from a business standpoint there is
nothing that has even approached the importance of the industry
committee of the Chamber of Commerce in building the community from
a standpoint of industry.
�16.
Q:
Have the Dougherty's been in this decision-making group?
A:
Yes/ very definitely.
One of the interesting things to me was that
back when I first came here, Dr. Blan Dougherty was very much opposed
to developing industry, but a few years later he had a very definite
change of mind and particularly in the promotion of the International
Resistance Company was very important promoter of industry.
Course
he had one love, and it was above everything else, and it was the
college which he built up from a little grade school to quite a
sizeable college and laid the foundations for a tremendous growth
that happened under Dr. Plemmons as President and is still happening
under Dr. Wey.
Q:
Could you give me any other names of really important decision
makers in the community?
A:
Well, I think Clyde Greene and Russell Hodges were of tremendous
importance, and Winklers have been important promoters, especially
Ralph and Gordon, and the three Wilcox boys-Herman, Charlie, Dempsey
have been tremendously important people in developing the community.
Q:
Would you list the Farthings and the Councills among these also?
A:
Well, Farthings and Councills held a lot of property and Grady
Farthing has been tremendously important as president of the Watauga
Savings and Loan which when I first became connected with it had assets
of very much less than $500,000.
Now I understand their assets are
listed at about 36 million; Grady Farthing has been tremendously important
in that connection.
Some of the best citizens in the county were
Farthings, but Grady stands out as the high man so far as promoting
the community is concerned.
Q:
Are there any minority groups in the community?
�17.
A:
Oh, yes.
There are minority groups, but they're much better off
than they are in cities, and we don't have much trouble with the
minority groups whether they be black, or something else.
Q:
Were some families poorer than others?
A:
Oh, sure!
That's true today.
Some families barely lived while
others were living in luxury.
Q:
Did the others look out for them to a certain extent?
A:
A little, not much.
Q:
How many people were in the community?
A:
Well, the first time I came to Boone, there must not been over
300 or 400 people living in what is now Boone.
There weren't any
paved streets or even MacAdamized streets, there were jyst mud roads
and when it rained they were really mud roads.
Q:
Has the population changed greatly?
A:
Numerically, of course, it has changed greatly.
A large number of
people now living in Boone lived in the county but a greater number of
people lived outside.
tremendous difference.
From an educated standpoint, there's a very
Back, when I first came here there was very
few that you could call educated.
Now, a large portion of the
population is at least high school educated.
A very large proportion
of the high school graduates go on to college.
Q:
Do you think that there'ivas a certain time that the population
change was greater, or was there a sudden influx of people, or was there
a gradual change over the years?
A:
Well, while there was a gradual change, there have been two or three
�18.
instances where there
was an influx, and the last five years have
probably been the worst, or the best whichever one you want to put it.-,
Q:
Concerning transportation, how did the people get around in the
community?
A:
Back then they walked, or rode a mule, some of the better ones
had a buggy, the automobiles finally came, and very few had automobiles,
but it kept picking up and picking up and automobile companies
have probably sold more new cars this year, 10 to 1 than there were
in the county in 1947 when I came back here.
Q:
Where did the roads and railroads run?
A:
Well, of course 421 was mapped out east and west of Boone, 321 and
221 were mapped out but they weren't paved or fixed up.
The road to
Blowing Rock was one of the best, but that was organized as a toll
road and they had to pay toll to go over it, and county roads were
generally poor and generally dirt.
Paving of the roads has been done
in the last 20 years, mostly.
Q:
When were the railroads built?
A:
Well, the Tweetsie Railroad built into here, I think, was built
back > in the teens, and was built primarily as a lumber road, though
they had passenger coaches.
Pact of it is, the railroad didn't come
beyond Cranberry when I was a boy and the first train I ever rode on
was Tweetsie from Elk Park all the way to Cranberry, but I remember
very well how afraid I was of it, that my brother carried me on board,
and I got down to Cranberry, and that was about 81-83 years ago.
They built on up here after the William Ritter Lumber Co. had developed
�19.
Pineola, which they called Saganaw, and pretty largely, and the
Linville River Railway came on into Boone, but both of them from
Cranberry to Boone was primarily built for lumber.
Q:
Are you very familiar with any of the mountain crafts or
customs?
A:
No, not familiar enough to talk about it.
Q:
Are you familiar with the folktales, legends, and superstitions
of this area?
A:
Well, I'm not too familiar with that.
�
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Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Stanley Harris Sr, March 30, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Stanley Harris Sr. was born on October 31, 1882 in Johnson County, Tennessee. He went to high school in Montezuma, North Carolina and then continued his education in Athens, Tennessee at U.S. Grant University. He wene to post graduate school at American University in Harriman, Tennessee. Mr. Harris had many different occupations throughout his life including salesman at a furniture store in Lexington, Kentucky, assistant secretary of YMCA in Frankford, Tenessee, and boardman on the National Council of Boy Scouts of America in 1917. He moved back to Watauga County in 1948, where he was part of the Watauga Centennial and secretary of Chamber of Commerce. He was a big influence on bringing industries to Boone, North Carolina.
Mr. Harris talks about the effects the Great Depression had on him while at that time he was emplyed by one of Rockafeller's orgnizations. He does explains how the banks were affected and what he believes caused the Great Depression based on his experience with the stock market. When asked about his childhood, Mr. Harris recollects his experience working, explains his family education, and describes the religious community. He then talks about Boone and describes how the minority groups of Boone are treated.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brinkley, Bill
Harris, Stanley Sr.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
3/20/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
19 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape39-40_StanleyHarrisSr_1973_03_20M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Boone, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
North Carolina--Social life and customs--20th century
Tennessee--Social life and customs--19th century
Tennessee--Social life and customs--20th century
Kentucky--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--United States
American University
Boone
Boy Scouts of America
Great Depression
industrialization
Kentucky
Tennessee
US Grant University
ymca
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/53ef985416b33b5bb4850280d375c9c2.pdf
d196b7c682192631af0a32b383694334
PDF Text
Text
AOH #29 & #30
Page 1,
This is an interview with Ed Cullers for the
Appalachian State University Oral History Project by Tanya
Shook and Karen Weaver in Boone on February 12, 1973.
Q:
What did you used to hear about the Welfare Program?
A: I,'ve heard about Welfare ever since I was a kid I guess,
But I'm awful happy to tell you one thing child, that the
Lord's blessed my wife and I that we have never had for to
be assisted by it and we're so thankful for that. But
it's a good thing if it
that a lot of times why a lot of people abuses it you
know misrepresenting themselves, they get it when they
could a got along without it. Now we didn't hear that
and I don't know how true that is, I don't know nobody
that's a getting that. I mean I see 'em hunt up folks
that's using these food stamps but I don't know. I do
know a few people that's getting 'em.
Q:
Were any of your relatives hit very hard by the
Depression?
A:
Yes, I had a brother that, he's dead now, that lived
on a farm, why he was hit hard. He couldn't sell his
tobacco
And he was the only one, the only brother I had at that
time, I had two but the other wasn't hit that hard. Now
he never did sell very much stuff, cabbage and potatoes
and stuff like that. Now he couldn't sell them either,
but he wasn't hit, because he had a lot more farm and
�AOH #29 & #30
Page 2,
stuff than the other'n had.
Q:
Was there anything good about the Depression?
A:
I really don't know. Sometimes I think probably that
it may help us to have
It'd be terrible, for all the good years we've had since
the Depression, if we's to have another one, why it'd be
terrible because they's a lot more folks, they's a lot
more people in debt now than there was then because there's
been a lot of jobs and they get good pay for 'em and
there's a lot of people that does that and just go in
debt a whole lot. They haven't got anymore than they had
to start with but they got too much of it, but they buy
automobiles and they buy a lot of things, colored televisions
and a lot of things that they owe for and if there'd be
another Depression now, that other Depression lot of
people didn't have the convenience and didn't have the x
things that you got now, so a Depression would hurt those
people now worse than it hurt us then, 'cause it would
take their homes away from them, and take their television
away from them, and take their automobiles away from them,
but we didn't have any like that to be taken away from
us.
Now we had an old radio, but television was never
heard of during the Depression, I mean not in this section
of the country, 'course it were in cities, big cities and towns
but of course it wasn't here.
Q:
What was your job during the Depression?
�AOH #29 & #30
Page 3.
A:
Oh, I's working over here at the college.
Q:
Did it hurt your wages that you were paid?
A:
Yes, yes it did. We were getting a dollar a day at
that time and they cut us down to eighty cents.
Q:
What do you like best about the way things have
changed today?
A:
You know, for the last, since I have, call it retired,
I have seen the worst time since I have retired than I
seen in those days when I was a workin'. Now I've got
more money, I'm drawing more than I ever made. My
retirement is much more than my salary was, but still
yet I enjoyed what I was doing more than I'm enjoying
what I'm doing today. I guess when you've had to do it
all your life there if I'd had money way back there I
wouldn't have worked like I worked, but I had to work
for to make a living. That is the honest truth, I enjoyed
what I was doing back there when I was a workin' than I'm
enjoying what I'm a doin' today.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-11
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ed Culer, February 12, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
The brief interview with Mr. Culler is mainly about the Great Depression and the Welfare Programs going on during that time.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Shook,Tanya
Culler, Ed
Weaver, Karen
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2/12/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
3 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape29-30_EdCuller_1973_02_12M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Boone, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
New Deal, 1933-1939
Great Depression
welfare program
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4fe5125463b57b1f7a5dbb15e49c69fa.pdf
460b3d91d44eba8958ea23c7689785cf
PDF Text
Text
Tape #37
Interview With Mary Burnham
I.
Childhood Days
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
II.
Name and birthplace of parents
No brothers and sisters
Land owned and what happened to it
Birthplace
Family life as a child
Gardening, canning, scarce food periods
c
Schooling
A.
B.
C.
Parents
Mother tutored, Boston boarding school, Vassar
Taught in Valle Crucis (Mother)
c
D. Went to Mission School (9 years)
III.
History of Mission School
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
Started 1$42 by Bishop Ives, Episcopal
-,
Started school for boys, theology school
Started 1st monastic order since reformation
Brother Sciles took over
1$95 school reorganized - industrial school for boys
Changed to mission school for girls
G. 1925 on went through 10th grade
H.
I.
J.
IV.
Original idea to train women in area- scholastically
and domestically
School almost totally self - supporting
Summer used for an inn
Education
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
Boarding school at 15- from mission school
College in Maryland BA
Technology school - degree in library science
Swarthmore 4years - library
UNC - studied (graduate) ancient and medieval
history (2years)
Cornell- 4 years - Zoology Department
Library work in Boston
�V.
Religion - Ghurches in Valle Crucis
A.
Different denominations
c
B. Changes and improvements
VI.
,•;
VII.
Valle Crucis Community
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
Major events and activities in community
A.
B.
C.
D.
VIII.
Two levels
Big landowners, small farmers
Minority Groups
A.
B.
XI.
Farming
Population
Community club (changes)
Large mumber of summer residents
Modern conveniences
Decision Makers in Valley
A.
B.
X.
Political rallies
Quiltings
Family gatherings
People helping each other
Changes in Community
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
XI.
Pfening of the valley (before 1940 flood) Bishop Ives
"Vale of the Cross" Valle Crucis latin
Abbey in Vales momed Valle Crucis
S
Monastic order at the mission
Settling - deeds go back to 1$02
Most families settled by 1$40
Wagner ancestors
Foreigners
No racial or linguistic minorities
Population changes
A.
B.
C.
D.
Decrease during W.W.II and after
People come back after many years
People left to get better jobs
Attachment to Valle Crucis
£
�XII.
Elections - Party Preference
<
A. Democratic
B. Political meetings - Boone, Johnson City
XIII.
Transportation
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
XIV.
Mountain Crafts and Customs
A.
B.
C.
D.
XV.
Weaving
Chair Making
Pine needle baskets
Bark Baskets
Looking for Herbs
A.
B.
XVI.
Tweetsie Railroad - ElJt Park Terminal
7 hours to Valle Crucis from Elk Park - horse and
buggy
Paved roads
Horse and buggy
First car - Model T Ford 1925 - big event
Genseing "sang"
Galax - change in quantity in the area
Customs - Way of Life
A. Dating
B. Group activities more popular
C. . Parlor games
D. Picnics in the summer
E. Sleigh rides
XVII.
Legends and Superstitions
A.
B.
C.
D.
Planting with moon
Medicines and cures
Gardening
Superstitions vary with community
S
�XVIII.
-i
The Depression
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
H.
I.
J.
K.
XIX.
Wall Street Crash
Bank closings
Mountain people not affected as much by depression
Credit an Mast Store
WPA work (school, Boone Post Office)
CCC
Scarcity of food only among lazy or disabled
NOTE: Listen to chimes of mission is background
of tape
Prices stayed fairly level - locally raised
commodities
New ways for making money (crops)
Changes in schools during depression- improvements since depression
Changes in churches during depression
Likes - Community Togetherness
A:., Changes
B.
XX.
Closeness,, friendliness of people
Today's Lifestyle
A.
B.
C.
D.
Not a lot of change
Still comfortable in valley
Misuse of land
If she could change anything, it would be
progress in Valle Crucis (development of land, etc.)
�AOHP #37
Page 1
This is an interview with Mary Burnham for the
Appalachian Oral History Project by Lester Harmon at the
Valle Crucis Mission School on March 19, 1973•
Q:
Would you give me the name and birthplace of your
parents?
A:
Wade Hampton Wagner, Valle Crucis, N.C., Sarah B..
Marsh, Patterson, New Jersey.
Q:
And the number and names of your brothers and sisters
and their ages?
A:
None.
Q:
Did your parents own any land?
A:
Yes.
Q.
In Valle Crucis?
A:
Yes.
Q.
What happened to the land?
A:
Well, it was gradually sold off.
Most of the original
Wagner Farm was sold off in bits and pieces.
My
mother sold the last big chunk when I was about 13We still own an acre where the house where I'm living
stands now, which my mother built in 1927.
�2.
Q:
Were you born here?
A:
I was born in Avery County.
Q:
What can you remember about family life- what your
childhood was like?
A:
Well, my father died when I was about a year old, and
my mother and I lived with cousins - H.Mast's, Howard
STC'S aunt, in lower Valle Crucis - until 1927 when
we moved to the house where my husband and I now
live.
The reason for that was, my mother was
determined that I was going to school at the mission
school, rather than the public schools, which were
not as well staffed and as well built, and - everything
else, as they are now, and the schooling here was
much better than what you got in the public school.
Q:
Did you grow your ©wn food?
A:
Yes, we had a garden.
We never raised any animals
in the way of beef or pigs, or any of that kind,
but every year we had our own garden, and canned
until the deep freezer came in.
One of my earliest
memories from the age of 6 on , was helping to can in
the summer.
Q:
Do you ever remember any scarce periods, when there
wasn't much food?
�3.
A:
Well, we were lucky, my mother and I.
She had some income
on the side, so we weren't entirely dependawie on
raising everything.
But there were always times
when y/ou had a bad garden, or something like that,
and hoped you had enough left over from the
previous year.
Q:
How much schooling did your parents have?
A:
I don't know exactly how much my father had.
He went
to school, and I believe he finished about the 3rd
or 4th grade.
My mother, she was tutored privately
at home, she and her sister, until my mother was 15,
when they went to a boarding school in Boston, Mass..
It was quite an unusual school, I gathered, because
girls that
were interested in learning had the benefit
of Radcliffe and Harvard professors, who came and
taught them.
She went on to Vassar,
but she only
stayed for about a part of a semester, because in
1$91, and thereabouts, young women in college was an
exception, rather than a rule.
And she dropped out-f6r_
which she kicked herself for the rest of her life.
But she had enough background from her schooling there
in Boston, to be able to come down here and teach
Latin, English, Arithmetic - what have you.
Q:
You went to the Mission School?
�A:
F&r the first nine grades, yes.
Q."
I don't know too much about the Mission School.
Could you give me the purpose, how the Mission
school was organized.
A:
Well it goes back to 1$42 originally, at which time
Bishop Levi Silomon Ives, from the Episcopol Church,
.. came from Raleigh, to establish a mission here in
this area, which he did.
That's his log cabin that
you can see out there. (Note: Mrs. Burnham's office
at the Mission overlooks the church and a log cabin.
She was pointing out the cabin to me.)
He started a school for boys, and he started a
theological training school for ministers, and then
he started the first monastic order in this country
since the reformation.
This went on for several years
and then Mr. Ives became ill and went back to Raleigh,
and things kind of dropped off, and work was carried
on for many years, by a Brother Sciles, who's buried
down at St. John's down the river.
(Saint John's
Episcopol church, down Wautauga River.)
After his
death, things just sort of wilted for awhile, until
Bishop Chesher, also from Raleigh, began to be
interested in the area again.
In 1$95> he re-
organized the school, and started a new idea.
First
it was an industrial school for boys,- and gradually
�as the need shifted, it turned into a mission school,
training
^school - it's had various names - for girls.
But this didn't exclude the boys, because up until
its last few years of operation the local boys went
here, as well as local girls.
We had boarders here,
in the buildings here, and the rest of us came in
from the community.
Anybody that lived in this area,
within ; walking distance, came here rather than to
go to the public schools.
It was
nearer, and they
didn't have bussing systems in those days, so it
was to their advantage to come here.
From 1925 on,
it went through the 10th grade, so you could get your
high school diploma from here.
And the've had as
many as, oh, from the old enrollment books I've
looked at, they've had upwards of 100 going to school
here.
And what happened in earlier days, was a lot
of community, lower valley and others.
The public
school usually had about 6 months that it ran, and
finish up up here.
If they went to a public school,
they didn't have to quit, they could keep on if they
came up here.
So, it was really used by the entire
community, rather than being limited.
But the
original idea of the mission school was to bring
in young women from around this area, who maybe
didn't even have a public school near them.
But
they could come here and live, and not only were they
�6.
taught scholastically, but they were taught housekeeping,
and domestic arts, and things like that.
In fact, at
various times, this place was almost totally selfsupporting.
We had a big farm, chicken houses, the
apple orchards, the dairy herd, ice cream and cheese
factory.
And all of these things contributed to the
support of the students.
I was just reading some of
the old bulletins the other day when I was looking
around for some historical material.
for a girl for a year was $100,
A scholarship
so you can tell that
they had to be self-supporting in a lot of ways, to
get by for
that little for a whole year.
In the
summertime, they used the place as an inn, and people
came from away and stayed here as they did in
days.
those
People didn't just get in a car and go and go
and go.
They came someplace and they sat down, and they
stayed.
And from the cities, frequently the mother and
children would come up the 1st part of the summer.
The father would come up weekends, and when his 2 or
3 weeks vacation came, he
came and stayedVv&re too.
All the big houses around here were crammed during
the summers with visitors from away.
A lot of them
stayed all summer, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, what have you.
And the girls from the school, some of them who
couldn't get back to their homes, or didn't have homes,
�7.
would stay here during the summer and work in the
kitchen or dining room, and so forth.
Q:
You went to the mission school your 1st 9 years?
A:
For the first 9 grades.
Q:
Did your mother teach here?
A:
She didn't teach while I was going to school here,
except to substitute.f She had
taught here.
She
came from New Jersey to teach here originally, in
1909, met my father and never left.
at various intervals here.
fill in.
But she taught
When I was a baby she taught-
Then she taught after I was away, she taught
again at various times.
She was always handy, if they
needed a substitute- almost anything that they needed.
Q:
After you went to school here, where did you go?
A:
Well my mother had been sent to boarding school when
she was 15, and she therefore went on the theory
that I went to boarding school when I was 15, so I
was sent to the Hannamore Academy in Ragsterstown•'
Maryland, where I graduated from high school.
Also,
at that time, the llth grade was as high as the N.C.
schools went, and most colleges were requiring 12
grades, so that was another reason for going away.
�Q:
And after high school?
A:
I went to Hood College in Frederick, Maryland and
recieved my A.B. there.
Then I went to Drexel Institute
of Technology in Philadelphia and recieved my Bachelor
of Library Science degree there.
Q:
And then you came back to Valle Crucis?
A:
No, then I worked at Swarthmore College for 4 years,
in the library.
Then I came to U.N.C. for 2 years,
in graduate study in Ancient and Medieval History.
Then I went to Cornell University to work for 4 years
in their Zoology department - I was librarian of the
Zoology department.
And then I was out of the
library business for 2 or 3 years.
I was living in
Boston, and I went back to library work,
I worked
8-g- years, partly as patients librarian and partly as
medical librarian at the Shaddock Hospital in
Jamaica Plain, Mass.
I met my husband in Boston, we
married, and when her retired from gov. service, we
came down here to live.
One of the old ladies around here who wasn't too
familiar with education - she heard something about
my going to graduate school - to library school after college.
She was doing somebody's laundry.
The story is that she came up out of the washtub and
said, "Ain't that Mary Wagner ever going to get
educated!?"
�Q:
What sort of churches were in the area when you were
a child?
A:
Well, the Methodist Church in the lower valley, and
the Episcopol Church here.
I remember as a small
child, going to the old chapel down the road.
remember some of
out here.
And I
the building of the stone church
The Methodist Church, this church, and old
St. John's down the river, are the only ones I really
remember.
Q:
What were they like then, and have they changed much
since then?
A:
Well, the Epicopol Church doesn't change too much.
Of course, we've added things here and there, and so
forth.
The Methodist Church has done improvements, and
so forth, in their building.
St. John's has since
sort of folded, except for a service once or twice
a year.
Q:
But,
they're pretty much the same.
About the Valle Crucis community, - do you know how
it got it's name, and how it was formed?
A:
Well, the story that we all go by and believe pretty well based on fact, I think - is that Bishop
Ives gave the name for the valley and - this was
before the 1940 Flood which sort of rearranged part
of the scenery.
The creeks in the valleys-looked out
from the other building here, you can't see it too
�10,
well from here, crossed in the middle or met in the
middle of the meadows down there, sorta in the shape
of a St. Andrew's Cross.
Then if you really look at it,
well, up in that direction which is Clark's creek,
back
this direction and then down the road towards
the store and then up cross from big school Barns
down there, there are four little coves that come in
so you, by stretching your imagination make it look like
a St~i Andrew's Cross.
And also there was an Abbey in ',
Wales which was named Valle Crucis, and we think that
may have had something to do with Bishop Ives naming
it Valle Crucis.
Q:
And this is in Wales?
A:
Uh - hum, that's the original Valle Crucis.
Q:
What about the mission school that's over there
established in
the last quarter here?
A:
Yea, uh - hum.
Q:
Did it have a special name?
A:
Order of the Holy Cross.
And in the church out here,
the stone church, in the back you'll find a wooden
cabinet, alter, small alter and so forth with an
inscribed memorial to Brother Scyles; was the first
long term member of the monastic order since the
Reformation.
�11.
Q:
That was the first one established in this country?
A:
Un - hum.
Q:
How was the community formed or why was the community
formed?
A:
You mean sociologically, economically or
...
Q:
Yea, well just how did the people or when did the
people begin to settle in this area?
A:
Well, I've got some old land deeds at home that go
back to 1$02; the land in this area.
Most of the
families, I guess,were settled in or around this area
by around 1&40, something like that.
but a good many of the older ones.
were a little later than that.
Not all of them,
My Wagner ancestors
They came, pretty near
as I can figure out by the records, my Grandfather
must have come here just before the Civil War and he
worked his way came down through Virginia as many
people did from Pennsylvania and that area.
He had
a big family but it was all scattered and trying to
pick up bits and pieces of family history has been
pretty hard and I haven't really worked on it too hard.
But I know that some of my uncles were not born here
and others were.
I know my father was born in a log
cabin that my grandfather first built when he moved
�12.
into this area.
I remember the log cabin myself.
It's fallen down now , but it was standing when I
was a child.
Q:
What were some of the major events and activities
back then?
A:
Well, in those days we used to think the political
rally in Boone was a big deal and everybody went.
We had a parade on the Fourth of July and so forth.
Q:
How about the corn shuckings and . . .
A:
No, we didn't have any of that particularly.
Quiltings they had to some extent, yes.
Corn
shuckings was just a matter of - well anything as far
as the seasonal farm crops was concerned.
It meant
that everybody gathered at whoever was ready, their
house or their farm and did the work that was to be
done there and then they moved on to somebody else
was ready and in the fall when there was a lot more wheat
and buckwheat and rye raised they would come, machine
wouldoome around.
Everybody just pitched in where
ever the work needed to be done, there wasn't and big
deal about it.
Whose ever farm was being worked that
particular day, the women were responsible for feeding
the gang and of course they always put on a big meal.
How anybody ever went back to the fields and worked
after they tucked away some of those meals, AI don't
know.
�13.
Q:
How has the community changed ovef the years?
A:
It's, well of course, it's become more mechanized
and change over from crop farming to cattle farming.
Fewer people have sizable farm or
of people just don't bother anymore.
___•
Lot
They can go out
and work for wages and go to Boone, and shop.
Most
of the local people though still keep something in the
way of a garden.
Lot of us would feel lost without
it I suppose, we've had it for so long.
Things like
Community Club and so forth, it died out for a while
particularly during the war.
up again.
c
Since then its started
The biggest difference is that instead of
having summer people come and stay in the houses,
many of them have built their own, as you know.
So
there we actually have two seasons when our part time
residents are here.
local ones are here.
In the winter time when just us
And course people, living in the
community has made a difference because they're
really a part of the community for at least six months
of the year.
Anf it's sort of evident, I suppose,
our perspective having people from various places come
here, lot of the small farmers and workers and so
forth, they just go on pretty much as
they did except
they have electricity and deep freezers and f.V.'s.
�H.
Q:
Who had been the main decision makers for the valley?
A:
Well, if you want to get in the social angles, I suppose,
there's sorta been two levels.
Important, locally
v. \ • *< important families like Mast, Shawls, Bas*y4s-, Taylors,
Wagners, what - have - ya.
And then the people on a
more of a small farmer level.
were the big land owners.
Those I'd say originally
And the school here itself
which one time owned 2,000 acres.
That's a pretty
good hold in North Carolina any place.
awful lot of it.
We sold an
We actually own over 500 and some
acres now.
Q:
Have there ever been any minority groups in the community?
A:
Actually when somebody from another country came here
to Watauga County everybody got out and looked at them.
Gosh we even had one resident from Canada at one time
when I was a kid and I remember what a big deal that
was.
Somebody from a "foreign country". But in the
natural sense of racial or
I wouldn't
say we had.
~__minorities, no,
We had the occasional student
from another country at the school maybe or visitors
or something of that kind.
There's been pretty much
a close-knit relationship.
Things start getting into
family relationships in Watauga County you gotta wash
both feet and your hands too or you'd get in trouble.
�15.
Q:
When you were a child, how many people lived here as
compared to the people that live here now?
Has it
increased?
A:
There was a decided decrease during World War II and
after it because almost all the younger people got
up and moved elsewhere and many of 'em didn't come back.
And even the immediate generation following World War II,
many of them moved away, but a lot them lived within
a reasonable distance of here and come back to visit
their families.
And more and more of them are, as they
reach retirement age are beginning to come back themselves
just as I did.
But it was a question of earning a living.
Bat; o»f them didn't want to stay here and farm a few
acres when they could go to some city or town, and
get a better job.
But it's plain the hold Valle Crucis
has on people because once they've been here chances
are they're gonna turn up again sometime.
Now for
instance, couple of our local ladies were doing a
tour of England, Wales, and Scotland and they went
to a little town in Landgoland right near Valle Crucis
Abbey and they were having dinner there and someone
asked them where they were from and they said
"We're from Valle Crucis, North Carolina" and the man
said, "Oh yes, I've been there.
I was on a tour with
a singing group that went to Appalachian State
University several years ago."
experiences here.
He described his
He'd been taken around the county,
�16.
shown around.
Not very big on the map,, but you can
always turnfsomebody i^p who's been there.
Q:
Have you got any memories of any specific elections
whether they be local, state, or federal?
A:
Oh yes.
on.
That's one thing everybody gets pretty hot
I can remember 'em all.
that goes.
Hoover on, as far as
Well, a lot of them, I was away and I heard
second hand, but we were in the early days of my memories,
predominantly Democrat.
My mother was a Republican.
I don't,never decided so sure whether that was a political
conviction or just out of stubborness.
She and one or
two others were Republicans and they used to get into
some pretty high , heavy arguments whether or not to
vote for Democrats.
Now I think a lot of people, I
know a lot of people then and some today still just
vote the party rather than the candidate which is their
affair.
But it's at least broadened in some sense that
most people around are aware theyenow are two parties*
Which
were not" in the 20'.si don't think they were.
They used to have some pretty hot political meetings
in Boone.
And 'course well, one time I remember it was
Hawl Smith's Hoover campaign.
They had a Democratic
rally in Johnson City which fortunately coincided with
the visit of the circus. So I remember going to the
�17.
circus, but I remember some of the people that
went down with us, they went to the rally.
find the circus was more enjoyable.
I
I'm not
particularly politically minded till I probably
paid less attention to it than a lot of people
would.
Q:
What do you remember about the transportation
system when you were a young girl, did they have
any railroads?
A:
Well Tweetsie, yes.
The old BT and WNC ran from
Johnson City to Boone.
well when my
And it ran through Elk Park
mother came here in '99 Elk Park was
terminal, that was the end of the line.
she was
And from ther
brought here in a horse and buggy, one of
those big double buggys and it took her, I think it
was, seven hours from Elk Park to Valle Crucis.
They got stuck in the mud and they got tangled up in
the axles of an ox drawn wagon and a few other little
items.
By the time I was noticing things like that
they had graveled this road out here, which had
another name it wasn't 194 then, and it wasn't until
1927 or 8 that they paved this road through here
for the first time.
And I remember very distinctly
going down to Sunday School down at St. John's or
going up to Foscoe to visit an Uncle and Aunt, that
we went in a horse and buggy.
Mother didn't
have a
car and oh, it was a big deal when Mother got her
�IB.
Model T Ford in 1925 or 6 - 1925 when I was about four
going or five I think.
when she got that.
That was a big exciting thing
But the road from Boone to
Bck-bwing Rock to the best of my memory had not been
paved then, 'cause I remember going down it when it
was gravel.
That was the old road.
now , to me, is the new road.
The one we use
The other one was a
real doozy.
Q:
Do you remember very much about the mountain crafts
and customs?
A:
Well', my clearest memory on those is of course of
Mrs. Finley Mast and her sister Miss Lownny and
their weaving cabin down at the Joe Mast's place on
the Broadstone Camp Road.
And they were very active
weaving and things of that type.
One of my memories
was going there and watching them weave and then
having Miss Lownny show me how to weave on the small
loom.
I never got to fool with big looms.
That was
too much to set for just to have somebody to play
with.
I remember them setting those up and watching
them do that.
And of course quilting - I've been
^CVwV
-te- those as a child.
them.
I've seen them - been around
And I was taught how to make a white oak
split for cane chairs.
Think I could still do it -
�19.
I never tried.
But Mr. Duke Tester, he used to do
that regularly and he sat down once and showed me how
he split a sapling, skinned it and split it, smoothed a
and so forth.
Q:
Could you do it if you wanted to now?
A:
I doubt it.
I might possibly on a small one, but I'd
be very insecure at trying because it's been such a long
time - I've just had no chance to experiment with it.
My mother went for awhile over at the craft shop in
Boone,
that little log cabin there at
_^
corner, and took some lessons just for fun.
_
At that
time they had lessons there if anybody wanted to try
'em.
I can't tell you who did it but I can remember
people doing the old pine needle baskets and so forth.
I've seen 'em do it, watched 'em do it.
baskets that you see here and there.
Those bark
Old Mr. Jason
T'Qwnsend up on Clark's Creek still makes those.
Q:
(side two)
What were the pine baskets you were talking about?
A:
Took pumps of pine needles like the little tips that
they pick in the winter to make wreaths out of.
And
They smooth 'em out and then tie them with a kind of I don't know what it is raffy or something of that kind.
And then tie it and then build up row by row, shape
your bowl or basket.
Curl your first ones around tight
and then build another bunch around that and around and
aroy,iid, then on up the sides and you could shape it in
�\0
or out depending on how many needles you want to use to
make the shape you want.
! w I f ve seen 'em I think in
0
one of the craft shops around here, but I wouldn't
r swear to it.
i
Otst-i -*....£, - 0,
Q:
Did many of
the people go out looking for genseng?. '
A:
Or "sang" as its sometimes called.
There were quite
a few of them.
Q:
How about -gay
A:
Well that was quite a growing thing because, well that's
Q oJi. c>r.
one reason there' s not as much -gaylight-a, as there used
to be around.
Much of it was picked and it was a regular
thing in the fall, early winter before Christmas, people
picked it by the bushels to ship out of here.
And of
course if you don't pick it carefully why there goes
your pay 1 I jJhts.
Pull the roots up and why you've
ruined the whole thing.
areas
Now a lot of the easily -aeeeesibe
were practically cleaned out of it.
I still
ship it out, send it out to some of my friends and
relatives at Christmas time.
Q:
Not too many use it.
About some of the customs, well for instance dating,
courting, was it so much different then?
A:
I don't really know because as I say, when I was
fifteen I was sent away to boarding school and I lost
�22.
supply and needed for the winter.
A few, yea, and
there it was winter and there were one or two sleds
that they would have parties in the winter and we'd
go on a sleighride.
That was great fun.
In those days
the roads were either dirt or gravel and you could
get a good track on them and really go for a good ride.
That again was a group thing.
Q:
What do you remember about some of the folk tales,
legends, and superstitions?
A:
Oh, the usual ones like planting your beans on Good
Friday, and kill your hog at the right time of the
moon 'cause if you didn't, your bacon would curl.
Various home remedies and so forth that some of the
older women had.
Like if somebody was drowning or some-
thing you'd roll 'em over a barrell and if someone threw
a fit, you threw all his^ clothes in the fire and
burned 'em.
Didn't matter whether they were brand
new, whether he had money in his pocket or not threw 'em all in the fire and burned 'em.
noticed that it did much good.
the garden and things like that.
Never
Most of 'em were about
Still there's
people around here that you wouldn't believe that
will tell you up and down about the garden - if you
don't plant at a certain time why your crop won't grow.
�23,
For instance if you make sauerkraut at the wrong time
of the moon it'll go on you, it won't
properly^ §0—bad on-y^m.
season
These things, they can vary
from one area, one little community to another one that
may be only four or five miles away. Each one will
have it's own little version.
Get 'em all together and
have mish - mash, but they do believe them.
The women
here who work the school, they'll tell you straight
up and down if you don't plant something at a certain
time you won't have any luck with it.
I can plant it at
a certain time and still don't have any luck with it.
Q:
When did the Great Depression start as best as you can
remember?
A:
And how many years did it last?
Well I remember my first awareness of it was my mother ,
took the New York Times and of course Wall Street crash
was very big in the N.Y. Times.
I remember that part
of it, I remember very distinctly the bank closing and
I think in between that, as I say, we knew the people
working in these areas govermnent agencies to help
people out, but we simply weren't that much aware of it
as they were in the cities because
people
here at least eould raise an adequate, or fairly
adequate, food supply.
I know at the store for instance,
at Mast's Store, you can look it up in some of the old
�24.
books down there that Mr. Mast has, long lists of
U^/
people who bought an credit for a long period of time
until they could find work.
But I imagine that right
around here probably Mast store carrying people on credit
did as much for the local people as some of the
government agencies.
They know these people; they
know that they'd be good for it when they could, but
really it didn't make that much of an immediate dent
in most people around here.
Q:
What do you know about government projects WPA?
A:
Well they built the stone part of the public school
down here and they built the post office in Boone, but
they were very much present.
They worked right here,
and I remember the C.C.C. camps very distinctly, although
there weren't any around here, but there were some
boys who did go to those camps from here.
various projects.
There were
Well, I didn't have any direct ..
response to them except I knew people working on them.
Q:
Do you remember when they started effecting this area,
or started working in this area?
Well, let me think; it was'32 wasn't it?
I'd say it
�25.
was about a year and a half or two years after that
they began to show around here.
I'd say and
They was slower coming
it was slower leaving.
Q:
Was there ever a scarcity of food among the people?
A:
Among those families who were not able to, or willing to
work on their own crops.
Q:
Yes, there were some.
Were the prices like at the store, were they high or
low or during the depression?
A:
Well, of course compared to now, they were lower by many
many times and very few people bought much of their
food a:fc''!i the store outside of staples like flour and
sugar and coffee.
There we're a whole lot more things cheaper
than coffee a lot cheaper than hard coffee bought
in those days.
drinking it.
Lot of people are like that, still
But, about all j remember in that
respect is that the prices in this area seemed to me
to stay fairly level.
They didn't go up the way
they did in some of the cities, because so many of
these commodities were raised locally.
And so
instead of shopping potatoes out - potatoes were
a cash crop at that time.
Potatoes went to the towns.
So these areas shipped out, out of state or further
down state.
Apples of course were always
�26.
because there were a number of orchards in this
state.
Pay was low, I remember that very distinctly.
The men working the orchards were making 20 - 400
an hour.
And women would come in and do house work,
for instance, for a dollar a day.
And women, that
was a good day of pay.
Q:
Did any of the people around, try to come up with
new ways for making money?
A:
Well, if I know crops for instance, potatoes were a
big crop.
Potaotes, cabbage, corn, and various grain,
made crops,
^nd then we had a big thing on green
beans for a while.
And everybody began cash croping the beans,
And that, began to fall apart.
tobacco began to fail.
That was when the
Then when I was small, tobacco
was not a big crop around here by any means.
very small.
It was
Folks a somebody just grazed small
amounts of it themselves. Something of
that sort.
Just been a shift in emphasis on what
crop they could make cash one.
Q:
How about the schools?
Did they change very much
during the depression?
A:
Uh, they began to, the public schools began to pull
�27.
themselves up by their boot straps.
They really
began to take a look at what the world works and
upgrading.
I'ts been a long process. I think the area
schools are better now then they ever were before.
Even though there's
in some of them.
been slow improvement, I know
But the school term went through-
while quality and training of the teachers improved.
And prior to the depression, anyone who had a high
school education or a
__, „ plus would gladly
teach in any school they wanted to.
And any teacher
who had high school, or a little more, why they
could teach school.
They would make do with what
they had at the time,
or what the state would give
them in the way of money.
it wasn't worth much.1
i
But I think from the depression on,' the schools were
gradually building upwards, constantly.
think they've backed any.
I don't
It's been a constant
upward move.
Q:
How about the churches, did they change much during
the depression?
A:
No, uh I don't tMnk so.
Change isrfU something that
uh, goes over to big around here.
It takes a long
�28.
time and is slow.
People got to stop and see something
worse before they're gonna snap it up.
They not gonna,
somebody come roaring through with a big idea.
Not many
people around here are gonna fall right in the line and say
okay we'll do it right now.
first.
They got to see if it works
I think the churches have held their ground pretty,
well here.
I think there's less emphasis on the church as
a social unit perhaps.
But most of the families that
went to church then, still go to church now, and they choose
which church they go to and uh what the church near to one
of them then.
Uh, there is to some degree of the church
going on the younger generations part.
middle age and older groups.
of alligience.
I think that the
It's all a certain shift
Someone will belong to one church and marry
someone who belongs to another church.
And I think the
dominant partner in a marriage says as to where the family
ends up going to the mothers church or the father's church.
This is true today where people don't have that conviction;
but their church is the only church that they'll shift.
Chances are theys go to church somewhere.
Q: What do you think was best about the days back then?
A:
Well we lost our sense of community togetherness, I'd
say.
Well, this is still true right around here.
If
something happens to a family, everybody will get together
�29.
and try to do everybody will get together and try to do
something about it.
Or if a family's burned out for
instance,everybody goes out and sprays their attic or
pantry or what have you, to see what they can spare.
Now
of course, this has changed to a certain extent because
now you can channel it through uh fire department, and
before, they didn't have a fire department.
was up to the neighbors to get up and do it.
Before it
Uh, in some
ways its not quite as close a religious group because of
broad communications and more travel.
But still when it
comes to punching somebody who's down or something like
that, why the people will get together quietly and try to
do something about it.
Why well, this is an instance.
Sort of ties in general things I guess.
when my mother died.
We were in Boston
And coming down my husband asked
on the plane, "How much will it cost to have the grave
dug?"
"I don't plan any arrangements or nothing.
says,"What do you mean?"
it done.
I said,"The neighbors will have
They'll get together and have it done.
"But won't they charge?"
He
I said, "No"
He says,
They expept sometimes
when something happens in your family, you'll come and help
dig the grave for them.
And uh of course we didn't stay
at the house after it was closed, my house.
Later on we
were living here, my son-in-law died, and we didn't go in
the kitchen, my step daughter and I, we didn't go in the
�30.
kitchen for 3 days.
over the kitchen.
hear a tap
Well the neighbors came in and took
And everybody brought food.
in the door.
And you'd
It was somebody else with
something else to bring food.
And this was the way things
were taken care fo down here. When something like that
happens, the neighbors just sort of take over, help out.
Q: I have had a lot of contact with Richard and other people
in the valley; and they say it's still alot like that.
A:
Yes it is. Well, Mrs. Zares died recently.
originally
She wasn't
from here, but she lived here for a few years,
Their children live, one in Charlotte, and one in Baltimore
I believe. But the same thing happened. Someone from the
church, and various other people just came in.
And every*- -
body brought food. And they just took care of the meals
and dishes and everything for the time the family was here.
Q: What do you like best about today's life style?
A:
It's still relaxed^ it's comfortable and you're not
pushed too much.
If you want to scurry around, but if you'1
don't want to, you can sit back and know things are going
to be pretty much theaame. And of course there's more worry
about vandelism and breakage and there's more of it.
And there's more temptation towards it too.
A lot of these
�31.
houses are closed up six months of the year.
But
basically I think the community is still a unit.
Of course some of us are beginning to worry that
ther will be too much building and too much misuse
of some of the land.
And we'd like to see it kept
as a small quiet country community.
We have no vital
urge for a shopping center or anything like that.
So when we get to Boone, and you get all you have
over there.
Q: If you could change anything now, what would it be?
Would you keep the valley like it is?
A: To a certain extent.
I'm not against people coming
-&.. C'-^
in if it's done in a way.it doesn't spoil the valley.
1
A lot of people, a lot of people are crazy to have a
golf course out here in the fields.
less.
But I could care
Infect, I would care very strongly that I
hope they don't.
Because we're; our particular lot
is just a little corner surrounded on three sides by
a possible golf course, which I don't care for at all.
t
It's something ,Ife-*riT not resented, but never happy
about for $0 years was the fact that I've always
t(J h l'^a/H4--^
thought sold the last of the Mhifefter land.
Out of a
deal, I'd like to have that 70 acres still in my hands
even though it is rocky on top of a ridge.
But at
least I know somebody's not going to put a housing
development on it.
�32,
Q: Well Mrs. Burnham, it's been good talking to you
and I sure do appreciate what you told us.
Hope
we can come back some other time.
A: Glad to help
you if I have, glad, whatever.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Scanned by
Wetmore, Dana
Equipment
Hp Scanjet 8200
Scan date
2014-02-11
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mary Burnham, March 19, 1973
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Burnham was born in Avery County where she grew up and attended Mission School for her first nine years of education. She then went to boarding school called Hannamore Academy in Ragerstown, Maryland. Ms. Bornham continued her education at Hood College in Fredrick, Maryland and Drexel Institute of Technology in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She then worked at Swarthmore College for four years as a librarian. She also went to UNC for graduate study in ancient and Medieval history. Ms. Burnham worked as a librarian in the department of zoology at Cornell University and at Shaddock Hospital in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts where she met her husband and eventually after retirement made her way back to the Valle Crucis area.
Ms. Burnham explains the history of the Mission School she attended. Ms. Burnham goes into detail about the Valle Crucis community including its history, major events, and the current differences compared to her childhood. Her memories of the area also include politics, specifically elections and the typical transportation of the area. Ms. Burnham then speaks of the traditions and customs of the area such as quilting and weaving. Other traditions she talks about include picking herbs, folktales, and group activities she experienced as a child. Ms. Burnham recollects the Great Depression and its effects on the neighborhood including the public schools and churches.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harmon, Lester
Burnham, Mary
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
3/19/1973
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited.
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
32 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
document
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape37_MaryBurnham_1973_03_19M001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Valle Crucis, NC
Subject
The topic of the resource
Avery County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Avery County
Valle Crucis (N.C.)--History--20th century
Cornell University
Drexel Institute
Great Depression
Hannamore Academy
Hood College
Mission School
Shaddock Hospital
Swarthmore College
Valle Crucis