1
50
2
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/fac22515f69b688ff93d9ba56d27515d.mp3
1d103349af81577f5b32d316c1ee244d
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2c6f0108d3a44c41a7f922cba4408970.pdf
bb5ab50058ac7a03176c5a311b3e7ea3
PDF Text
Text
Military Oral History Interview Transcript
Ralph Lerch
Boone, North Carolina
15 October 2011
BC: Benjamin Chappell
RL: Ralph Lerch
BC: My name is Benjamin Chappell, and I'll be conducting this interview for Military History. I
am interviewing Mr. Ralph Lerch who is a Vietnam War veteran and pilot for the US Air Force.
We're at Boone airport. Today is October 15th at about 3:00 in the afternoon. He understands
that we're conducting this interview as part of my Military History class for a project I have to do
for that. So, Mr. Lerch, why don't you tell me a little bit about where you were born, how you
were raised...things like that.
RL: I Was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1935. I was raised during World War Two, matter of
fact it was...let's see, I was ten years old when it ended and when I was 15 the Korean War
started, but I was too young to get in that one. I went to a high school in Brooklyn, New York
where I where I studied aviation and aviation design or aircraft design and at some point during
that four years in high school, I decided instead I’d rather fly them than work on them.
So, at the age of, let's see I was 19...I took the test for the Aviation Cadets, which was a program
available in those days for people who did not have college or did not go to an academy. Passed
the exams, and in March of 1955 I joined the United States Air Force as an enlisted man because
I had been waiting and waiting for a call to get into the program but the Korean War was over
and I guess they didn't need people as much as they did a few years prior to that. So I thought by
joining up, I could get into the program quicker.
So I went through basic training and right after basic training they gave me an assignment to
Aviation Cadet Program. I got into the Aviation Cadet Program, went through the preflight.
Went to Marietta, Florida to start my flying training, and shortly after I started training I took off
one day in a T-6 and the engine quit. My flight career came to a sudden abrupt end around a tree.
So and after the next...year and a half...I went back to an enlisted status.
Primary reason that I couldn't get back in was that I had a pin in my leg and they wouldn't let me
back in the program till the pin was removed. It took a little over a year to get that out. After that
they made me take all of the exams again which I did. Passed them again, took a physical again,
and passed that again and then eventually got back into the Aviation Cadet Program.
This time I finished it and went through it graduated as, oh I forgot exactly what they call it. I
was at the top of my class basically and I was offered a regular commission in the United States
Air Force, which I took. And the rest of my career from that point on was kind of varied. I flew
large transports. I worked on Atlas missiles. I was in the radar business for a while, long-range
radar. Ended up flying helicopters and at the end of my career ended up at Andrews Air Force
1
�Base and what was supposedly a weather wing...but I really think it was a branch of the CIA or
something cause they did an awful lot of wild stuff. So, that...is the short and dirty version.
BC: Okay, so you said that you got into flight school at a early age on, upon completion of high
school, you got into aviation. What made you first want to get into aviation? What made you first
want to join that with the military?
RL: Well, I was always intrigued by aircraft and during the war living on Long Island you would
see an awful lot of airplanes all the time, and I knew everyone of them, you would see the P-40s
and the P-38s and the P-47s go by and the B-25s and they were all going on their way over to
Europe.
So I always thought man, it would be really neat to be, be in one of them, but I never had the uh I
don’t self confidence I guess you could call it to think that I could end up being a flyer, uh but
anyway so I really didn't think about that so much later on and I was about 17 when this aviation
cadet program came to light and at that time, that was one of the primary methods of becoming a
flyer. Nowadays everything is through the academies or the ROTC programs in college. So...
BC: Okay.
RL: So in short I was one of the dumber ones cause I never did go to college.
BC: Well, you still got a commission, and you came out as a major?
RL: That’s correct. I made major.
BC: Okay. You said you were in the weather wing, was that during Vietnam?
RL: No.
BC: What kind of aircraft?
RL: In Vietnam I flew the C-124s.
BC: Okay.
RL: Large four-engine cargo aircraft.
BC: Okay.
RL: Primarily what we did in country was haul things that the C-130s couldn’t carry. Anything
that a C-130 couldn’t take, we would take.
BC: Okay.
2
�RL: And it was the first time that we really used the aircraft for what it was designed to do. It
was big, big cargo, large pieces of cargo. That the airplane could go on very short fields. We
used to haul gun carriages, trucks, buses...all kinds of things that wouldn’t fit into a C-130.
BC: Okay, so was the mission set limited to bigger runways than what the C-130 could get into?
RL: No, we could go into anything a C-130 could go in to.
BC: Oh, okay.
RL: That was no problem.
BC: So you just had more horsepower?
RL: Well, it was just a bigger, a bigger envelope basically.
BC: Yes.
RL: The, the 130 had a lot more power than we had probably but, but we could carry the larger
items than would fit into a 130.
BC: Okay. I understand. So in Vietnam how much contact did you have with NVA (North
Vietnamese Army) or anything like that?
RL: To my knowledge I never saw one. They might have been around, you know. Might have
had contact but they, they never effected me any, because if you were to go on crew runs there
would be Vietnamese all around you but you didn't know whether they were good guys or bad
guys. So, in that respect I never did any actual combat as such. We weren’t gun soldiers you
know, we were just hauled the stuff.
BC: Right, but did you ever have any like fighter escorts from Phantoms or anything like that?
RL: No.
BC: Okay.
RL: Close as I ever got we were on one mission, which was just prior to the incursion into
Cambodia. Now we hauled large gun carriages up to a very small place up in what they called
the Parrots Beak, and we were loading these things and the Army guys were going with us. And
the Army fella said "You guys got any weapons?" We said, "No, we haven’t got any weapons."
So they said, "Man, you're crazy for going into that area that was VC (Viet Cong) controlled."
So that was the first and I think only time that the C-124 was armed and what the Army guys did
was they took the back doors, laid them sideways and they mounted Browning machine guns up
on top of them just in case we had…I don't know what they were thinking...in case somebody
was shooting at us...figured they could shoot back at least.
3
�BC: All right.
RL: They figured they could shoot back at least. So that was about as close as I ever came to any
kind of armed conflict the stuff was all around you all the time and I'm sure they shot at us…but
I never got hit some of the guys in our outfit did, but I never did.
BC: Right. Okay, so in knowing you, I've heard you talk a little bit about the Distinguished
Flying Cross. The Distinguished Flying Cross is a metal for pilots in the Air Force and Army that
distinguished themselves; its pretty much like a silver cross for pilots, aviators...you know you
uh...distinguish yourself for a courageous act in combat aviation. Can you talk to me a little bit
about the difference between getting one then in 1960s-70s era and like getting one like today?
RL: Well, in Vietnam, here's a good example…that mission I just told you about where we went
up in there into the Parrot's Beak. We went up there and it was myself and that another guy, we
had two aircraft. We shuttled back and forth, flew in there a couple of times. We flew bulldozers
in and gun carriages in and the bulldozers were to dig the holes, and they'd put the gun carriages
in the holes.
About a week after that the whole 101st Airborne went up there and some of our headquarters
guys went in there and they got the DFC for getting in there. We never got squat. So they had
those things out, you know hap hazardless. And its really inflated I’ll give you a good example.
The guys that went on the Tokyo Raid in World War Two received it.
BC: Yes, that's right, Doolittle’s Raid.
RL: The Doolittle Raiders, Jimmy Doodle got the Congressional Medal of Honor and the rest of
the crews got the DFC. Now, if you want to compare that those DFC's were for what they did
compared to what they were handing them out for in Vietnam, there's no comparison. A lot of
guys in Vietnam got them just because they were there so long. Not because of anything they
really did. You know you get like 20 missions up north or something you'd get a DFC. Primarily
because you survived that long.
BC: Right.
RL: Look, it was kind of a stupid war, lets face it.
BC: Yeah, kind of a stupid war. And that's pretty much the sentiments among all of the guys in
your command?
RL: Well, I don't know about all of them, but it sure was mine.
BC: Okay.
RL: So, and I was pretty outspoken about it and its probably why I got passed over the first time.
4
�BC: Right. Yes, it's a big problem. As you were growing up in Brooklyn, you said that you got
into a flight school, traversing back into your earlier years, you got into flight school but you said
you crashed a T-6 or something like that?
RL: That's right.
BC: So they kicked you off the flight list for crashing? What was the whole deal with that?
RL: They kept me on for three months...after the crash they hold you as a cadet. You know
paperwork wise for a period of time, but this injury took too long to heal. I broke my thigh.
Which is, you know a big bone so it took a long time to heal.
BC: Right.
RL: So well as long as that pin was in me, they call that a cruse and a nail, and they put it in
threw your hip and shove it down threw the middle of your bone…I think they put it into your
hip they shove it down into the middle of the bone. I think as long as that thing was in me they
were afraid that if I ever broke it again I would really get.
BC: Right.
RL: It would really mess the bone up bad so they wouldn’t let me back till that thing was
removed. So...that was why it took so long.
BC: Okay, and I had another question about your training. You said for the later part of your
career you were in what was supposed to be a “weather wing,” but you had a little bit of feeling
that it was something else going on…could you tell me anything?
RL: Oh yes...they were fooling around with urn. It was the first of the satellites in what we were
trying to do.
BC: What was that unit?
RL: It was the 6th Weather Wing.
BC: 6th Weather Wing.
BC: Okay.
RL: Had something like 28 PHDs in it or something, something really wild outfit. But they were
doing things like…primarily a lot of satellite work and what they were working on were…trying
to get an area. For example, Vietnam was over but if you wanted to look at a area real time, we
were starting to work with satellites...and the camera systems.
BC: Okay.
5
�RL: Where they can actually...the field commanders could order up an area? For example, if
they wanted to target something the satellites would target a specific area and we would get
photographs of that real time. So these guys could actually look at what was there at the time that
they were going go prior to takeoff.
BC: What year was this?
RL: This was in 1974.
BC: Wow, I had no idea. Well, as a future Army aviator, on track as it is right now, what is the
one piece of advice that you would give me to carry forward in my career?
RL: Keep your opinions to yourself. If you don’t follow with the company line...don't shoot your
mouth off because it doesn’t pay off in the long run. In Vietnam there was a lot of guys that just
got really kind of outspoken against it...and I always thought it was stupid and said so. I thought
we would have been much better off if we'd dropped TV sets and bags of rice and Honda
motorcycles on them instead of bombs. They probably would have quit a long time ago. And as a
result of all that that we did we lost 58,000 guys and the end result was the same. They took over
the place though so…
BC: Right. Yes.
RL: What did we gain? We just spent 10 years over there beating our brains out. We lost
anyway, so...
BC: We were talking in class a couple a days ago about what keeps soldiers motivated. What do
you think was the implications of, you know, what you said was going on what you said the uh
the end result being the same. What do you think? How do you think that impacted your
squadron’s morale? How do you think that changed their will to fight? Was it more of like a
camaraderie?
RL: Camaraderie had a lot to do with it, and its mission accomplishment still, and I think that
goes true in any military unit. You end up wanting to do the job as best you can, even thought the
big overall picture you might not agree with it. If you’re told to…guys in Vietnam, I mean the
grunts, I always admired them. I mean they were told to take a stupid hill and they’d go take it.
Three days later they were told get off the hill and they’d go back off the hill this kind of thing
went on and on but still the morale was pretty high. They always tried their best. I don’t
know...from my personal view, I always enjoyed going in where the Marines were.
The Marines always seemed to have the highest degree of...oh, I don’t know what you would call
it, “gung ho-ness” or whatnot. But, like if you took a load into a Marine base they have you
unloaded and turned around in no time. But if you just you’d go in other places like where the
Air Force were, ground crews would take forever and they would goof off and there was...it was
just…it wasn't the same.
BC: Right.
6
�RL: Plus, the whole system was screwy. I give you good example. I was in Saigon one night.
There was a C-133 sitting in front of me and they were getting ready to go to Clark Air Base.
BC: Which is where?
RL: In the Philippines. Four-hundred miles...no 800 miles across the pond. But anyway, the
traffic people came and said, "Hey can you take a load back to Clark?" I said "Sure." He said,
"Somebody made a mistake and we ended up with 200 and something desks." Somebody put a
decimal place in the wrong place I guess or something. So they was this huge pile of military, of
GI desks, metal desks in crates. So they started to load all these crates, as many as they could get
on me and they were loading the airplane up. And I said, "Hey, how come you don’t put desks
on that C-133 in front of me?
They're going to the same place, see there going to Clark too." And then they said, "Oh, because
they’re industrially funded.” And I said "What?!" He told me, “Well, your aircraft is not
industrially funded and they’re industrially funded.” Now, this is one of McNamara's little
puppets…was something to do with the way the military was funded and they was supposed to
be like we were working on a paying basis.
Since that aircraft in front of us would charge the Army or whoever it was that had the desks
they couldn’t do that, but since we were kind of an offshoot outfit or something, whatever you
want to call it we weren’t funded the same way they were. We could haul the desks back but they
couldn't. Now that just shows you the stupidity of the system. Now here we are fighting a war
and the fact that it was desks. It could have been anything. It could have been ammunition or
whatever but this kind of stuff went on all the time.
BC: Yes.
RL: Another example of the same stuff went back to Hawaii for what they called “block
training.” And every year we would have to go back and you go into the simulator and you go
through the simulator program and escape an evasion and all of this kind of thing. Well, it was
my time to go home, so I went down to the traffic office, and went to get a seat on a airplane, get
back to Japan and they said "Oh well, you'll have to wait for a transient reserve airplane to come
through. I said, "Why? "There's all kind of, you know there's Braniff going out of here, there's
Pan Aro going out of here...everybody and there, you know there is all kinds of airplanes
leaving."
"Well, your outfit is not industrially funded, and all these other airplanes are industrially funded
so I'll have to put you on an not industrially funded airplane." So I sat around in Hawaii for an
extra three days until a Reserve C-124 came through and I got on that and flew. Took another
day and a half to get back to where I was going.
BC: Right. Well, a lot of corruption in the system.
RL: It's just stupid.
7
�BC: Yes.
RL: Like you said, you express yourself to somebody. And say you know, "What in the hell are
we doing?" Well, then you’re a bad boy.
BC: Yes.
RL: Your not with the program, you’re a trouble maker.
BC: Right.
RL: So...anyway.
BC: I can, I'm a four year enlisted and I can definitely understand what you're talking about, not
to that degree but I'm sure that anybody that’s been involved with the military at all can tell you
that there definitely some screwy stuff going on when it comes to money and allocations and
things like that. But, is there anything you’d like to add to the interview or anything you'd like to
talk about?
RL: You're asking the questions.
BC: Okay. Well, I think that’s about got it. Again, my name is Benjamin Chappell and this is
Ralph Lerch. I'm interviewing, former Major U.S. Air Force pilot. We're at Boone airport on
October 15th and this is going conclude my interview for Military History class. The year is
2011.
8
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers.
Copyright Notice:
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC).
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Lerch, Ralph A.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Chappell, Benjamin
Interview Date
10/15/11
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
22:59 min
Copyright
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used.
Tag
Air Force, pilot, Andrews Air Force Base, C-124, cargo plane, 6th Weather Wing, Clark Air Base
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph A. Lerch, 15 October 2011
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Lerch, Ralph A.
Veterans
United States
Interviews
Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph A. Lerch talks about his experience as a Vietnam War veteran and pilot for the U.S. Air Force. He served in Vietnam transporting cargo, which he described as "kind of a stupid war." He entered the Aviation Cadet Program, but crashed during training and broke his thigh which took a long time to heal. After a year he was able to re-enter and he was eventually deployed. He never saw combat or came into contact with the NVA, but was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross Award.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lerch, Ralph A.
Chappell, Benjamin
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a>
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
8 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
Aviation Cadet Program
C-124
Distinguished Flying Cross
major
pilot
Ralph Lerch
US Air Force
Vietnam
weather wing
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/861c4a8622b50c863364ad29464e0761.mp3
b24d0e631862d9d325ce6501e83e46f6
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/93c47b258fb9502e4d561b22cb433ad1.pdf
bb3566de9ac96ac5b84485c247948f7f
PDF Text
Text
Military Oral History Interview Transcript
Jack Wayne Alexander
Mercersburg, Pennsylvania
15 October 2011
SB: Sean Bolick
JA: Jack Alexander
SB: Alright, this is Sean Bolick I am here with my grandfather Jack Alexander at his home in
Mercersburg, Pennsylvania to conduct an interview about his time in the military. The day is
Friday October 14, 2011. So to start off can I get when and where you were born?
JA: I was born in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania on November 9, 1924.
SB: Now did you have any siblings growing up?
JA: Yes, I had three brothers and two sisters.
SB: What made you decide to join the military? Were you drafted or did you enlist?
JA: I enlisted, but I enlisted in the Aviation Cadet Program. I was always wanting to learn to fly
ever since I was wee little and when I was in high school and junior high I used to hitch hike out
to the local airport and wash airplanes or anything for a ride.
SB: Did any of your family influence you to also go into aviation?
JA: There was no influence but I had a brother that was in the Army Air Corps as an enlisted
man and then he ended up as a bombardier.
SB: Once you...when did exactly you decide to enlist? Do you remember when that was?
JA: I don’t remember exactly when that was. Could have been...had to been in '43.
SB: How old were you?
JA: I was well ... depends on what time in '43. Either 17 or 18. I graduated from high school
when I was 17.
SB: Do you recall your signing up and going to the recruiting station or anything like that and
that experience?
JA: Not really, it was 1943 so there were a lot of servicemen being enlisted and that impressed
you.
SB: Now from there where did you go for your initial training?
1
�JA: Well I went to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to take my examination. And I had to go twice. I
passed the written and the physical except my weight. I was 12 pounds underweight so I had to
gain 12 pounds.
SB: What did you do to have to gain those 12 pounds?
JA: Well, eat bananas and drink milk and I went back the next week and I had gained twelve
pounds. But it's about 45-48 mile from Uniontown to Pittsburgh where I lived and I had a sack
of bananas on the seat and a quart of milk and I did that on the way down. So when I got there
the sergeant happened to be from Uniontown too that I knew. He weighed me and he says I can't
believe it. In a week you gained 12 pounds. He said, “It’s got to be true because you sure don't
have any pockets.”
SB: So once you got there and made the weight, where did they send you from
Pittsburgh?
JA: Well, I went from there to Keesler Field in (Biloxi), Mississippi and that was a basic training
field for the Army Air Corps.
SB: And can you tell me a little bit about your basic training experience? How that went.
JA: Well, I was probably one of the smallest ones in the whole unit. But I had no problems when
we were doing our running or hiking or this and that. I took a lot of kidding from the other
people the rest of the week but when we got into something like that I was able to kid them
because it was a lot easier for me then.
SB: Now as somebody whose been through basic training themselves. Did you have any; I know
for me, did you have any memorable instructors? Anybody there like a drill sergeant that you
remember distinctly? Any characters?
JA: Yes, memories weren't too good (laughs).
SB: Do you have any stories in particular that stand out to you about your basic training
experience?
JA: Not really. I guess I was kind of different cause I enjoyed what we were doing you know
while the other people were all upset about it and doing this thing I seemed to enjoy it.
SB: What exactly in particular did you enjoy about it? Was it the training or the...
JA: Well, it was the training
SB: Do you remember about what time you completed the training, got done with your initial
basic training phase?
2
�JA: We had I think...I'm not sure now. Oh I think it was about...14 weeks of basic training and
then we were sent to a unit to decide where they want to send you and whether you were going to
be classified a bombardier, a navigator, or a pilot. So that decided which field you went into.
SB: Do you remember how they made that decision?
JA: I guess it was through your request things you did in basic training and examinations that
you took and what you were adept for.
SB: Did you go through with a big class then in '43? Was it...do you remember about how big
you guys were?
JA: It was a pretty good size class but I couldn’t tell you how...it'd be wrong if l could just
guessing now but I would suppose it was about 50 at the time.
SB: What did you request after leaving basic training as far as your follow on, what did you want
to do?
JA: To go to pilot training.
SB: Did you have a preference about what you wanted to be flying or
JA: No, you had no control or no thoughts even. You had to go to primary training school first
for primary training
SB: Can you tell me a little about the primary training school?
JA: Well, it was a single engine aircraft built by Fairchild here in Hagerstown ironically now. It
was about, you got about 65 hours in the airplane at that time and you were given a flight test
and things with check pilots and decided whether you were going on to that or taken off 9F pilot
training and go to bombardier navigator training if you couldn’t fly.
SB: Now you mentioned the selection process. What did exactly they decide that you were going
to be doing?
JA: Well, you didn't know until you went through the other two phases of basic training in a BT13 and advanced training where they sent you. They were all different fields and different places.
But after I left Mississippi, the bases were in Texas, and ah, Corsicana; and Greenville and Eagle
Pass. After Advanced, then they had to decide where they wanted to send you, to what type of
flying; single engine or multi-engine or what.
SB: And where did you end up getting sent?
JA: I got sent to single engine, like I said, to Corsicana or Greenville or Eagle Pass. And then
after you finished your training, about 65 or 70 hours in advanced training, then the ones that
were going to be fighter pilots spent about 10-hours in a P-40. And that was the greatest
3
�excitement you ever had to get into something that powerful at that stage. And then they decided
where they wanted to send you. And different phases of fighters at which kind of units.
I got sent to TAC Recon School, which was...a version of the P-51. But you didn’t know any of
this at that time but as you got there and got acquainted with it and the people, the P-51 had a
camera mounted vertically in front of the air scoop on the right side of the airplane, missing the
wing so you could take pictures. And we had bunch of different things that was longer than the
fighter pilot.
I had probably about seven or eight months just in reconnaissance. Because you learned to take
pictures and to adjust artillery and also to support troops. You had all your firepower in that
airplane. It wasn’t a stripped airplane. You had your guns and they were mounted. So you could
go out on missions to take pictures or adjust artillery or what you were going to do. You had
another airplane with you. You always went out in pairs.
SB: Do you have any memorable experiences from that portion of your training, getting into
your P-51s for the first time?
JA: Well, you were just overwhelmed by it. And the P-51 was brand new. And we thought when
we flew this P-40 fighter in advanced when we left there it was something. And it was really
funny how we got sent there. There was about 60 or 70 in our class and 2 of us got sent to F-6
school which was the fighter version. The only F-6 I ever heard of was a Navy Hellcat. And I
couldn't understand the “F-6.” What's this?" One of the men went and got it and here it was the
photo version of the Mustang. Boy we were overwhelmed.
SB: So we've discussed a little about the training so far. Now while you guys were there, did you
have any down time? Were you able to go on leave? What were the conditions like for you as
cadets?
JA: Well, after we finished cadet training, we were given a leave. And that's when I first met
your (grand) mother. When I come home, and of course we lived in Uniontown, and that was a
town of about 28,000 people I guess or something like that. There was a war going on and I
come home a hotshot pilot, in this officer's uniform and everything and I thought I was about the
hottest thing Uniontown ever saw. The story, one evening, it was in the Christmas time and of
course your grandmother lived a little bit out of town and the townships weren't running the
school buses. And they wanted to go a basketball game that night. So she stayed in town with my
sister. That's when I met her, when I was home on leave. And I considered them the little kids,
you know. But she was only three years younger than I was.
I took them, gas rationing and everything, and this car; I took them to this basketball game. And
then I went to pick up a girlfriend that I had a date with that night and we went out. I got back in,
what was it, about 2:00 in the morning or something. I'm not going to tell you the bathroom
story. But she wasn’t very impressed with me. And I was really impressed with her. She was a
beautiful girl. When I came home from the service she wouldn’t go out with me for about two
years after the war ended. But I finally hooked her.
4
�SB: We’ll go on and talk about when you got back to training. Do you have any memorable
experiences?
JA: The most memorable occasion I had…we were going out for training in Mustangs with our
flight, which was four of us. Our leader was Major O'Riggan. And three of us were a wing for
him. We were scheduled to do high altitude acrobatics above 20,000 feet. And we were doing
“Immelmanns,” which is like a loop and when you get to the top, instead of going on over, you
roll out and go the other direction. So technically the Air Force called it a 180-degree change in
direction with an increase in altitude. Well we had done one and we were doing the second one.
And I flew his wing.
And as I rolled out over my back the airplane stalled. And started to spin, flat, upside down. And
Major O'Riggan radioed and said "Jack, if you can't get out of it, bail out!" But I had taught
students in advanced training acrobatics before I got sent to TAC recon school and I wasn’t
concerned about it. It was a powerful airplane and just getting out of spin, you know, that wasn't
anything.
So I tried to do the normal things you do in a spin. If it's spinning to the right, you lead with full
rudder to the right and throttle back. And then when you have the turn-stop, you dump the stick
and come on with full power and that would come out of the spin. Well, this one just went the
other way every time I did it. It started about 20,000 feet and O'Riggan kept hollering at me. He
said, "Bail out!" So finally he said, "I said bail out." And I looked and saw how close to the
ground I was and I decided I better get out.
The bailout procedure for the Mustang, and of course you never do these things, so your first
experience is your first experience. And you are supposed to lower the seat and drop your head
and pull the canopy release. It's not like now they have canopies that roll off. This canopy was
supposed to, you pulled the pin so the air was supposed to take it off, and well it didn't. It just
slid back on the rail. And so I'm spinning one way, and then the other way and losing altitude
fast. I raised my anus and hit the canopy and bumped it and it went off.
I started to jump out and you want to, in a spin you want to jump inside the spin so the tail is
going away from you so you don't hit the tail. And no one explained to me that the wing is
coming at you though. And I didn’t leave the wing enough so when I jumped out, well, before
that even, you don't want to get excited and pull the ripcord or anything to soon because the
parachute might open and catch the tail. And you’ll go down with the airplane. So I had my hand
on the ripcord and then I thought, no you can’t do that, and get excited and pull it. It's a good
thing I didn’t because I hit the wing and then I just pulled to the end of the wing and slid off it.
Then when the tail cleared me I pulled the ripcord and the chute opened. And I was looking for
the airplane after I got in the chute and I saw it below me. It just did a tum and a half and hit the
ground and exploded. And it happened to be down in Mississippi and I was coming down in the
middle of about 4,000 acres of virgin timber, all pine trees about 40 foot high. And here I am a
skinny little thing and the airplane; no one knew anyone was in it. I figured I was going to hang
up in that tree with that parachute about 40 feet up. The flight is looking for me but they can't
find me. And they keep circling and circling and I'm trying to find, I want to get down to where I
5
�can signal them. And strangely enough, I come down through all those trees right to the ground,
with the parachute with me. They tell you that part of that training is don't throw the parachute
away or don’t leave it. It’s a hammock, a cover at night, you know, and will help you survive if
you are in an area where you can't be found. Well did you ever try to carry a 28-foot canopy
chute open through the forest? And I finally found a little place that was open wide enough and
they were circling right over the trees, the three of them, and finally I was able to wave at
O’Riggan and he rocked his wings and I knew they saw me and would go back and report it. Just
as I went into the trees I saw, am I boring you? I mean, should I go on?
SB: Yes, yes.
JA: I saw this log road to the right. And I thought well if keep walking this direction, I'll when
hit that road and I'll tum left and start walking out to civilization somewhere. Well, unbeknownst
to me, there was a bunch of Mississippi lumbermen working there at that time and they were
watching us. And they were really excited. Well they saw me bail out. And they started to me
and started to me and they started to holler. And I holler back, I just sat down and hollered back.
And they came. And it's funny, poor old minimum educated log men from Mississippi during the
war. I can remember the one came up to me and he looked and saw that parachute, with all that
white silk. And he said, "My God, no wonder my wife can't get any underclothes." And they
insisted on carrying me. They wouldn’t even let me walk. They patched up where I was cut on
the legs on my parachute some were tore out...legs on the parachute I mean flight suit.
And they carried me to the ranger station and called the base you know. Well I tried to tell them
that...you know, I knew O'Riggan would send, they'd be sending a car out in that area to hunt for
me. Well, they had everything and we were really tickled to death because they thought I was a
hero. I didn’t do anything but lose one of their expensive airplanes. But its, instead of a staff car
coming for me or a car where I could ride back to the base, the ambulance came. When these
guys called back to base they got the base and they sent an ambulance out too and this sergeant
patched everything up, else up and looked me over and I told him, I said, "Sergeant, operations is
sending a staff car out for me and I'll just wait here." And he said, "Oh no you won't," and so he
says "you're going with me," he says "if I get back to that base and you’re not in that
ambulance...the chief medical man will crucify me, you’re going with us."
And I couldn't out, out rule him you know although I over ranked and you know. So I had to get
in with them and as we got out on the road, main road and turned on the main road here come the
staff car the other way and I tried to get him to stop but he wouldn't, he let them go. What’s
funny, at the beginning-of this thing how I got this airplane, it wasn't the one I was training in my
own the one assigned to me which was painted OD (olive drab). This was a brand new P-51…it
was shiny and silver and no paint and I thought boy when we go out on that mission I'll give
these guys a fit cause I have a better, the better equipment.
Well unbeknownst to me, something wrong with it. I was coming from the base hospital walking
back to my barracks and I met this friend of mine and he was coming the other way and he said,
"What airplane were you flying?" and I didn’t know the number of that one because it wasn't the
one that was, I wasn’t assigned to it and in my tom pocket I got the operation sheet out and I still
remember the number, last four numbers: 1914. And he says to me "Let me shake your hand, I
6
�flew that airplane yesterday and I wrote it up. There's something wrong with it. It's not to be
flown. It's a test op by engineering." And probably what happened was it was a brand new
airplane and everything and some second lieutenant that read this maintenance sheet says oh that
lieutenant doesn’t know what he was talking about, this is a new airplane and he ignored that and
put it back on the line. Well what had happened it was a...they called it captive air.
We didn’t get to fly them but new recruits or new pilots coming in that was to check out in it, it
was mounted on concrete blocks at level flight altitude so they could get in it and work the gears
and the flaps and the systems and start it up and nm it up. Well when you got an airplane bolted
wings and it’s sitting at level flight and you start that engine and run it and run1400 horsepower
and it can’t go and these guys are running the power up on it and it sprung it. And that’s what
was out of rig. So that's, I had to go to a hearing for the accident and he got up and testified cause
this engineering one wanted to crucify me for ruining a new Mustang. He got up and testified, it
was the story I had just told about flying it the day before and wrote it up. So they exonerated
me.
Its funny...anything else or? The base in this hearing, this colonel he come up to me after the
hearing he says "Jack I'm going to shake your hand and I'm going to thank you," he says, "We
been trying to get rid of that guy for a long time and now we can do it." And then they did. Well
every time I'd go out to get an airplane to go fly one crew chief would holler at my crew chief,
"Hey Edelburg, take the papers out of that airplane he ain't going to bring it back." And then they
got on my back and said that if l got two more Mustangs I was going to be a German ace.
Fortunately, I didn’t do that but I tried to hide after that and I shouldn’t talk about being in a bar
but the colonel and his wife came in, the base commander. She was a real petite sweet thing and
he was a big burly guy you know. He came in and I saw him coming and I dipped way down and
tried to look all insignificant and he come by and he said, "What are you looking for a rematch?"
But that was my most exciting experience I think in training.
SB: Now I've seen a newspaper article that talked about you and your brothers I saw being in
service at the same time. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what that was like for your
family to have all of you in service, in uniform?
JA: Well, it was kind of hard on mother and dad I guess. I had a brother Joe, the oldest one. He
was assigned to an anti-aircraft...my brother Dick had been a musician all his life so, I mean he
graduated from high school two years ahead of time and music was his life and he wanted to go,
this was during the war, the war had started this was about 1944, he wanted to study arranging
and composing and he went there and he was too young to join the union.
So he had to take a job playing. He played bass fiddle and bass wherever he could go and
they...he got to play with some of the big bands then and really on tour maybe all over the United
States and the draft board had been hunting him, they couldn’t find him cause he wasn’t in one
place long enough.
I was, started training out and I went to a college training detachment for, I forgot to say, six
weeks before you went to flying school. He stopped in he had been playing in a town near and he
7
�wanted to know if he could get if I thought, he was my older brother and the really bright one, if
he could get in the service, Air Force. Yes, so he went and took his exam and got in and he was
classified as a bombardier. So he ended up flying as a bombardier on B-29's. And then I had the
brother next to me that’d gone in, quit high school, went into the Army Air Corps in 1937 when
the army was real small and the Air Corps.
Most of the people were in the service then as enlisted personnel or…they couldn’t get a job and
they did that. But he had a, my mother had a fit when he said he wanted to enlist and my dad
thought that was a good idea for him before he ended up with a problem so he did and he ended
as a staff sergeant in the peacetime Air Force before he was 20 years old, which was amazing
and he was a commanding officer’s crew chief.
This captain...he was portrayed in papers after that in Terry and the Pirates and he was his crew
chief. But he couldn't learn to fly because he hadn’t had college and this was back before we had
really had went so he went over the hill and joined the Canadian Air Force to learn to fly in
Canada. And they found out he was an American soldier and sent him back and Cocheran busted
him to a buck sergeant. He said, "You want to fly so bad, I'll send you to flying school." And he
sent him to pilot training with his orders to train and he ended up and he stayed in for 20 years.
Four of us in the service in this article you were talking about in the paper was about how very
odd it was for one family to have four sons in the service and they're all officers. And that's the
way it ended but it’s just because, the only reason he got to be an officer was... cause when you
went through pilot training they gave it to you. Wasn't anything you really had to do. It was
good, I can’t complain.
SB: Did any of your brothers give you any advice, any of the older ones when you enlisted? Any
words of advice to you?
JA: Well, this brother next to me that had been in so long you know. Do what they tell you, yes
sir, no sir, no excuse sir. That’s the way it was. I didn’t get to see any of them after that until the
war ended. It was funny, the brother next to me was what, Waite would be about five years older
than me. We looked alike and of course he had gone into the Army Air Corps when it was wee
little in 1937 and almost everybody knew almost everybody else. And I'd be on a base going out
to an airplane or something and some crew chief would say "Hey Al, hey Al." No one called me
Al. So I'd go over and say "Sergeant, you call me?" and he said, "Sure, don’t you know me from
Mitchell Field, Langley Field?" And here he was with my brother and I'd say "Oh you must
mean my brother." “My gosh," he said "your twins!" That’s with five years difference. But that
was a family experience too, to have people then but these old crew chiefs and sergeants really
knew each other and stuck together.
SB: Now do you remember where you were, we kind of talked about when the war ended, not
seeing your brothers until the war ended. Do you remember where you were when the war
ended?
JA: Well, yeah we were...had all new gear ordered and now it was onboard ship and everything
and all our belongings and we were on our way to Okinawa. The war ended.
8
�SB: I bet you definitely remember that then.
JA: Oh, yes.
SB: How much longer after that were you in the service?
JA: Well then after that when you know the Japs surrendered they started releasing people...I got
out probably three months later.
SB: So you went home after that? Did you do anything else once you got out of the service?
JA: Yes, I worked for a contractor and I went back to working for him and he wanted to get an
airplane and I went and flew for him ...and that was pretty nice... ended up staying in civilian
corporations (audio fades out)...he sold to them ...owner here in Mercersburg is how I got here
and then we merged with American-Marietta and he, American-Marietta merged with Martin so
I flew for American-Marietta and Martin-Marietta and then they wanted me to move to
Baltimore and I didn't want to go down there. And I went with Fairchild, worked with Fairchild
until I retired. There were different airplanes that we built (audio fades out)...I was too lazy to
work and too nervous to steal that’s the reason I flew.
SB: So looking back now on your military experience how would you describe it?
JA: It was great, I...looking back on it I didn't take advantage of some of the things I could of
and I often wish that I would have stayed in because I was so young, stayed in twenty years I'd
have had a good retirement out of it. But then of course you had the Korean War and Vietnam
War and a lot of things could have happened in the meantime.
SB: I'll go ahead and conclude the interview at this time. I'd like to thank you very much for
your time.
JA: Well, thank you. You are certainly welcome I hope I didn't bore you too much.
9
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers.
Copyright Notice:
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC).
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Alexander, Jack W.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Bolick, Sean
Interview Date
10/15/11
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
34:32 min
Copyright
Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used.
Tag
Pennsylvania, Mercersburg, Pittsburgh, Aviation Cadet Program, Keesler Field, Army Air Corps, pilot, P-51, P-40, Immelmanns, Mississippi, World War II
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Wayne Alexander, 15 October 2011
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945
Air pilots, Military
Alexander, Jack Wayne
Veterans
Veterans
Interviews
United States
Description
An account of the resource
Jack W. Alexander, interviewed by Sean Bolick, was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on November 9, 1924. Alexander talks about his experiences as a pilot during World War II.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alexander, Jack Wayne
Bolick, Sean
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a>
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
9 pages
Language
A language of the resource
English
Aviation Cadet Program
fighter pilot
Pittsburgh
WWII