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Text
Interview with Mrs. Ethel Burns by Pat Morgan
I.
Childhood
A.
B.
C.
II.
C.
D.
E.
F.
V.
VIII.
(L)
Made small profits on large sales
Sold from catalogues
Not so money conscious
Did not take advantage of the rich
(S)
Older people with no children
Not many young people her age
Years being discussed
A.
B.
(L)
Community club
Carnival in the Park
1. jobs for local people
2. money for library
Feeling of inferiority of local people
Holthozers were accepted in their homes
Tourists as church workers
Local people's living depended on tourists
Types of tourists
A.
B.
VII.
Born in Rowan Co.
Moved to Blowing Rock
Father's business
A.
B.
C.
D.
VI.
(S)
Relationships to tourists
A.
B.
(S)
1915 - '20; age 10 or 12
Born in 1908
Change to need for money (S)
A.
(S)
Independent man
Story about Mrs. Cone
His love for mountains
His desire to build an inn
Father's background
A.
B.
IV.
Family
Involvement with tourists
Feelings about tourists
1. "summer people"
2. tourists in the home
Father's attitudes toward the tourists
A.
B.
C.
D.
III.
(S)
Father not money minded
)
�B.
C.
D.
IX.
Sunshine Inn and Mrs. Burns
A.
B.
X.
XII.
XVI.
(S)
No interference from government
Health department standards
(L)
Paid as a team--$25/week
Increase in pay over the years--$100/wk each
Loyal and hard workers
Discipline
A.
B.
(S)
Not cut out to be a boss
Did not scold individually
Work done by the Burns
A.
B.
C.
(L)
Year-round job
Waitresses went to school
Cooks went home
1. John and Maggie Jones
2. Room behind kitchen for summer
The Jones
A.
B.
C.
XV.
(S)
Nothing in town
Playing of games in dining room
Inn grew
A.
B.
XIV.
Description
Everyone was part of the family
Did all their own work
Waitress work
Guests stayed sometimes two months
$15.00 per week to stay
Meals at the inn
Closing at Labor Day
A.
B.
C.
XIII.
(L)
Entertainment
A.
B.
(S)
Father built in 1929
The Depression: the move to Blowing Rock
The inn
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
F.
G.
XI.
Others started seasonal rates
Yen for money grew
Father was a fair businessman
1. Taught children not to use credit
2. Most important lesson
(S)
Husband was dishwasher
She was maid
Work got easier
�XVII.
Guests' attitudes
A.
B.
C.
XVIII.
XIX.
E.
C.
D.
(L)
Jones felt too inferior to associate
Very humble
Jones boy could not play with Burns boy
Maggie couldn't understand any kind of segregation
John was afraid
1. Experience when Holthozer's store was built
2. Negroes were stoned
(L)
No bookkeeping
Not much attention to profit or loss
Experience taught her to estimate
Salesmen started to sell by portions
1. Bigger profit for inn
2. She didn't like that method
Wanted only enough money to get through winter
1. No money in bank
2. Watauga Savings and Loan
Change in tourist business
A.
B.
XXIII.
Couple had too much breakfast
Complained and unsatisfied
Left without paying
Business attitudes
A.
B.
C.
D.
XXII.
(S)
Jones' relationship to the guests and the Burns
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
XXI.
(S)
Jewish family unfriendly
Another family criticized service
Funny things
A.
B.
C.
XX.
Stayed long time
Mr. Dillon
1. disappointed at first
2. began to like it
3. came back year after year
Most of the guests were satisfied
Unpleasant things
A.
B.
(L)
(L)
1969--retirement after 40 years work
Transits people
1. Biggest change
2. Always on the go
3. More incontentment
Trade has more than doubled
1. Land of Oz
2. Tweetsie
Still room for improvement
Advertising
(S)
�A.
B.
C.
.XX:IV .
Difference in family- owned and non- family-owned business (L)
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
XXV .
B.
D.
Senator ' s son was coming
Mrs . Burns agrees to impress him
He came early
1 . tables wer e shoved together for lunch
2 . very informal
He didn ' t seem to mind
(S)
Didn ' t have any
Mr . Burns fixed up intercom
Bad response--idea dropped
Auctions
Movies
Other
Interference from government
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
X.XX: .
(S)
Guests found other entertainment
A.
B.
C.
.XX:IX .
Different games
1 . "Pig"
2 . Post Offi ce
Disturbed a guest one night
1 . he complained
2.
soon forgot about it
Music
A.
B.
C.
XXVIII .
( S)
Informality of the Inn
A.
B.
C.
.XX:VII .
Different attitudes in money making
Local people sold out because of a good offer
Real estate out- of- sight
Nothing like that in earlier days
Martin House and Green Inn
Games
A.
XXVI .
Chamber of Commerce
1 . posters in other states
2 . tourists came and were let down
New sign--" Sunshine Inn"
Use the money more wisely
1 . happy cust omers spr ead the word
2 . best way to advertise
(L)
Privilege license
Sales tax
Social Security
Withholding tax
Told how to run the inn
Getting out of the business
(S)
(S)
�A.
B.
XXXI.
Glad because of the things involved
Sad because customers were let down
One family in particular--the Butlers
A.
B.
C.
(S)
Came there for honeymoon
Came every summer after that until closing
By that time they had a daughter
�With Ethel Burns on January the fifth, 1975 at her home in
Blowing Rock with Pat Morgan with the Appalachian Oral History Project at Appalachian State University.
PM:
Could you give me your mother and father's names and
your brothers' and sisters' names?
EB:
Yes, you mean their full names?
PM:
Their full names, as much as you can.
EB:
My father was William (inaudible middle name) Holtho zer,
and my mother, Laura Ellen Holtho· zer.
~••
t
My brothers and sisters
suppose I just give you their first names?
PM:
Fine, that'll be fine.
EB:
June, Katie, the one you know Peg, Howard, Mary, Eugene,
and William Luther.
PM:
Very good, that's a nice, a nice sized family.
Mrs.
Burns, we have been talking abo'ut tourism and what it meant
to this section of the country, can you tell me when did you
go into the tourist business as such?
Just tell me as much
as you can about what you've done.
EB:
Well, personally, my time dates from 1929 when I ac-
tually got into the tourist business, but, of course, we were
affected by the tourist business all of our lives.
My father
being in store business--merchandise--of course, came in constant contact with the tourists then.
We spoke of tourists
then as "summer residents",. and "the summer people".
That's
the way we referred to them, we didn't call them tourists, we
just says they're "summer residents" or "summer people". And
while there was a difference, we realized that these were
�2
people who stood a little above us socially, and financially,
and at the same time they accepted us and we accepted them
as, really, people of Blowing Rock.
There was that feeling
of really high opinion of them because they did take an interest in our .•• oh, little everyday things that happened to
us here, the local people here in Blowing Rock.
that dates way back to my childhood.
So, of course,
Then there were so few
places around that people would take the tourists into their
homes.
They didn't have a business, but just their private
homes, and this brought us in, of course, closer contact
and association with the tourist people.
But I Slept on the
floor many a time in order to give my room to some tourist.
At the time I may not have liked it, but it was just a thing
that we accepted and did.
Then when we went into business--
really what we would say "the tourist business"-- it was no
great change, it just seemed like we just opened our home to
you the public, and we wasn't thinking of it in terms of
making alot of money, but really just of taking care of the
people who came to us.
time.
I think this was a change made in the
Then the season, really we opened in May, but we didn't
expect a rush business--and when I say "rush", it was rush
then, but certainly not like a rush would be today--really
didn't start until about the first of July.
~.c.k
Then we closed
everything--everything in BlowingAclosed--definitely at
Labor Day.
After
that time if you would see a stranger on
the street everybody would run out to see this new person on
the street, you know, and what he was doing because it was a
curiosity to see anybody on the streets after Labor Day.
So,
�3
that's changed tremendously, you know, from the past.
PM:
Well, tell me, in your childhood did your father ever
talk to you about tourists per se, or "those summer people"?
EB:
Oh yes!
Dad had a mind of his own really, and he was
very independent.
While he knew, as everyone else knew, that
we were dependent on as I said we called them "the summer
people" at that time, still Dad was a person that wouldn't
let them walk over him at all.
I know you've heard of the
Cone (spelling?) Estate, and the Cones.
Of course, Mister
and Missus Cone were living here at the time.
My father's
store had a basement and many, many times he would go to the
basement to maybe measure out potatoes or do work down there
and leave the store doors wide open, you kn ow, with noone
up there.
One time Miz Cone came in and she was a little
irritated because there was noone there to wait on her. So,
Dad eventually came up from the basement and Mrs. Cone says,
"Mr . Holthozer, don't you know somebody could walk off with
everything you've got?"
He just sort of grinned a little
bit and says, "Well Miz Cone, I didn't know you were in town,
or I wouldn't have been down there."
Of course, there is a lot of humor with it, too, but
Dad never let any of them, even though he was a very humble
person, and very kind person he still felt his ••• his authority
and his own individuality in his relationship to the summer
people.
I think this love for Blowing Rock and this life in
the mountains really, probably we inherited that from Dad
because he really loved the
mountains~
And I told you that
his ambition was to build a place where people of moderate
�4
means can come and enjoy the climate and the scenery.
PM:
He was from where?
EB:
Rowan County.
And he came, I think , because of malaria;
bad health conditions, there was alot of mosquitoes at that
time so his father moved his family here to avoid that situation.
PM:
Can you think of any other examples as a child in Blowing
Rock of your relationship to the summer people?
Perhaps
another story like the Cone story?
EB:
There are so many really pleasant associations with the
summer people.
They organized then a community club, which
consisted of some of the local people and the summer residents,
too. And they really did a great, a great work for Blowing
Rock.
And they had every summer there a carnival in the park.
In order to, I think, really to have have better relationships between the local people and the summer people, they
drew the local people into jobs in this project that they
called the Carnival in the Park.
head of it:
But they were really the
they put it on, and all the money was donated
to the community for the library.
The reason for us having the
x good library that we have now •.• so, I'm not thinking of
humourous things now, but really things that were so helpful
to the community.
PM:
You said they probably had the summer festival in order
to have better relationships with the peoplecithe area, did
you ever sense that people from the area, not necessarily in
general, but different ones, resented these people coming here
and spending their time during the summer, while they went
�5
about their own labors?
EB:
I don't think there was a resentment, but I do feel
like the local people had a tendency to feel a little inferior to the summer residents, because if they were invited
into their home socially, we thought we were up in the world.
We felt like that was a great honor.
So, I'm sure there was
a certain amount of class distinction there; that we did
think they were a little above us socially, and, of course,
we knew they were financially, there was no doubt about that.
PM:
Did anyone ever tell you that, that gave you that im-
pression?
Say, when you were in school did any teacher talk
to you about this difference?
EB:
No, no, and I think probably I felt it less--and please
don't think I'm saying this egotistically at all--but my
family, the Holthozers, were a prominent family then.
So,
probably we were accepted into ' the homes of the summer residents more than others.
But I remember my friends say,
"Hmmm, think you're somethin', don't ya?" being invited to
any of their social functions.
And we really felt like we
were getting up in the world when we were invited into their
homes.
But I don't think this was the feeling among the
summer residents, because we had such a high, really high
class people as summer residents that you certainly wouldn't
associate any class distinctions within their minds, you
know, because they were anxious, really for us to come in
their homes and be a part
of them.
You said you were so
familiar with Flora McDonald, we had the Bardells, who for
years and years were residents of Blowing Rock, summer resi-
�6
dents.
And then the Cones and the Cannons.
These names
are familiar to you I'm sure, aren't they?
PM:
Yes, ma'am.
EB:
So we had such a .•• and they were church workers, they
worked in the church.
Dr. Bardell supplied in our church
during the summer for years, and years and years.
So, to
them this was home, and they were really citizens of Blowing
Rock from their standpoint, and of course, from our standpoint, too, we accepted them.
PM:
Were there any feelings at all about the fact that
these people were coming to your Blowing Rock to stay for
se~eral
months?
Did you have any real feelings either
negatively or positively about that?
EB:
Not then, not as a child, because we thought it was
great when they would start coming back.
We looked forward
to the time when they were coming back and we'd say, "oh,
the lardells are here" , or "the Cannons are here", and it
was really something that we'd looked forward to.
Now,
whether or not we unconsciously were conscious of that fact
that our living depended upon them, that everything we had
~e
was dependent on this business, that mayAhad something to do
with it, though at the time certainly I didn't think about
that.
And I don't think my father did either, because my
brother-in-law was working in the store, my father's store,
Missus Cannon came in to buy a rug which was then a fantastic price for a rug, I think around ten thousand dollars.
Well, to me that's a big price even yet.
of business through catalogues.
But Dad did a lot
He would keep the catalogues
�7
and order for the people from the catalogues.
come in to select a rug.
So she had
I think on a ten thousand dollar
rug maybe he would make a profit of maybe ten dollars.
By
that time people beginning to get more and more financially
conscious, you know: make money, make money.
But I remember
Dad saying why should he take advantage of Miz Cannon just
because she had money?
It, really, didn't cost him anything
but a three-cent sta•p, and he was perfectly happy with his
profit of ten dollars.
So, the local people then didn't
try to take advantage of the people just b ecause
they
had money.
PM:
Do you recall ever having any friends, children of the
summer people, who you looked forward to seeing come back
every year? Any type of relationship like that?
EB:
That's something I expect would really give you an
insight into the tourists, the' type of tourists that Blowing
Rock had during that period, early period, because it seemed
to be older people who had no children, or people with grown
children who maybe wasn't too enticed to be in Blowing Rock,
that came, and so really I don't remember people of my own
age, like playing with them, or those things.
I just don't
remember it at all, because it seems that it has been
really a place where elderly people came, and retired people,
the
and notAyounger generation. Even that early there was definitely that because there was really not much for young
people to do, and I think they preferred the beaches, you
know, and so we just didn't have many young people.
And
while I haven't thought of it, I really don't remember
�having playmates among the summer residents.
PM:
Approximately what were the years that we've been
talking about?
EB:
Was it 1919?
'20? '30?
Yes, I expect from 19 and 15, '20, because these were
the things that I remember when I was ten maybe twelve years
old.
PM:
Could you tell me when were you born?
EB:
19 and 8.
PM:
1908.
Okay, you gave the example of your father or-
dering the ten thousand dollar rug and you mentioned that
at that
a~ ~s~~
time people weren't that interested in making
all that much money, they hadn't quite reached that point,
do you have any feeling as to when they began to feel like
they needed to make more money on that ten thousand?
Using
ten thousand just as an example, as a figure, when did
people's attitudes begin to change, and maybe you have a
feeling as to why it changed?
EB:
I don't think I could see the change, I can see it
maybe not in myself because I don't think my family was
ever money-minded too much.
a lot of money.
Really our aim wasn't money,
But I could see the change in maybe
public
places changing their rates from ••• like they would have
seasonal rates, you know, then they certainly had an idea
they'd make more money at one time .•• They were money-conscious.
I think the fact that they did change their rates
during certain periods.
Now, of course, the horse show has
always been one of the busiest periods during the summer and
many of the places would up their rates due to the fact they
�9
knew they were going to have a lot of people , there was
no doubt about it, and they would get as much money as possible.
And to me that's taking advantage of people. And so
you
see, this yen for money certainly growing all the time.
PM:
Did your father ever speak or talk about the jump in
prices?
EB:
Were they going on when he was running his business?
I never heard him talk about whether he would make a
big profit or a little profit.
fair-minded man.
He was reall y such an honest,
He said "a fair profit", and while he was
a good business man, from this standpoint my brother when he
worked in the store, Dad would caution him: "Now, you give
absolutely accurate measure.
Don't you give a bit over, or
don't you give a bit under."
This was honest, and while he
wouldn't give an ounce he didn't take an ounce from the other
person either.
And he definitely felt an over-charge was not
a fair profit.
PM:
Can you thi nk of any particular saying, or any particular
principle that your father taught your brothers and sisters?
Well, sometimes we've been told certain a saying like "a
penny saved is a penny earned•, do you recall any of those
sayings that stuck with you?
EB:
We were certainly brought up with this:
Dad was con-
stantly telling us never to buy anything you couldn't pay
for.
You're aware of the credit cards and all of this, we
was brought up on that:"Don't buy anything unless you can
pay for it."
And we didn't, and this influenced me all my
life, and really now I just never buy anything on credit,
as popular as it is to do that.
In fact, the salesmen at
�10
the Inn would get thoroughly disgusted with me because I
insisted upon paying for everything as it was delivered to
me.
Credit companies would not take my name as a reference
because I never gone in debt on anything.
But that was
really the outstanding thing that I remember my dad teaching
all of us, and certainly it has paid off in the long run.
PM:
Well now, let's get to about 1929 and just tell me a-
bout how you got ••• What you were doing in 1929 and the
business that you got into.
EB:
(bo; I+) ·
It was during the Depression and my father had filled
the place.
I think a fulfillment of hopes, thinking of it
as it was when he came in:
you never dreamed it could be
operated as a public place because it had none of the conveniences of a tourist place.
But my husband and I came up
not long after the place was completed, and we just went in
and started cooking, really, like we did at home.
So, we
gained the experience as we went along.
PM:
Your father built ••. What did he build in1929?
EB:
The Sunshine Inn.
PM:
The Sunshine Inn.
And what was his reason for building
the Inn?
EB:
In order that people--and he really had this on his
heart, I think--that people could come to Blowing Rock and
enjoy it without having to pay such fabulous prices.
And
for that reason all through the years we kept our prices
down when they were going up all around us and people said,
"Why don't you go up? You have to."
I think knowing Dad's
dream of that kept me from going up on prices all through
�11
the years.
PM:
Now, how did you get into the business of the Sunshine
Inn itself?
Was there anything happening in 1929 that got
you back here?
EB:
The Depression.
My husband was laid off, he was working
at the Southern Bell, and he was laid off.
out work: we had to do something.
So, we were with-
And like I said, we knew
nothing about this but it was something to hold on to and we
were thankful that it happened just at the .time that Dad
needed someone to operate this Inn.
And while we were ig-
norant at it, the tourist people then were not very choosey.
I mean, they accepted things as they were, and if things were
not convenient, if we had just one public bathroom, if everyone ate at the one long table, they accepted that and thoroughly enjoyed it.
PM:
Describe what the Inn was like in 1929 and how you
actually operated it around 1929 .
EB:
Well, we added to it later, but from the beginning I
think we had a fairly large kitchen with just a home range
and we cooked on a coal stove.
The pipe was constantly getting
clogged up with soot and we'd have to take it down, clean it
out every week. But we had no cabinets.
I think groceries and
things probably we just shoved under the table, I don't
remember.
But we certainly had none of the cabinet space,
and the storage space, that you would think of that a hotel
or inn might have.
room.
We had about eight bedrooms, one bath-
One bathroom • • Everybody used the bathroom,
bathroom.
that one
And the dining room, we had one long table and
�12
everybody sat at this table.
Really, it was just like one
big family because they seemed to enjoy this type of .••
We didn't have a menu.
We would carry the food and put it
on the table whether they liked it or not, but they really
seemed to like it, and people would comment how nice it was
just to have the food served and not have to be bothered
deciding for themselves from a menu what they wanted to eat.
And the people just really seemed to enjoy the simple things.
And I feel confident about this that while we may not have
a
had.Avery expensive and exclusive hotel, we had people prefer to stay with us rather than go to Mayview Manor.
(Begin Side Two)
PM:
We were talking about the Sunshine Inn that your father
built in 1929 and you just described the Inn.
Can you des-
cribe some of the people that came to see you?
Tell us
something about some of those people.
EB:
Well, when they came of course, they were perfect
strangers, but they didn't stay strangers long . hecause in no
time they were just part of the family and accepted us as the
family.
Now, we had cooks, the colored couple, that cooked
for us for thirty years, and we had at that time a local
girl, two, we only used two then, as waitresses.
They girls
not only wait on the tables, but they helped with all the
cleaning up the rooms, you know.
thought of using canned food.
Of course, then we never
We peeled our own potatoes,
and we peeled our apples, we made our cakes, our ice cream,
we killed and dressed the chickens, and the girls even helped with those things.
And I paid them five dollars a week.
�13
Five dollars, and they gladly did all this extra work.
They changed there later.
I remember one girl who ••• This
was years later, but to see the changes that went about,
we gradually had about ten waitresses and maybe by that
time we were using busboys, too, or at least one busboy.
But this young girl, waitress, and I think probably she was
the- only one that was not a local girl that worked for me
during all the years--but she decided their work was too
hard and she thought I should hire a helper for every waitress.
That is, this extra girl would carry the food in and
place it on the table, and thereafter
the waitress had
gotten their drinks and the meal was finished, then her helper would clear the table and reset the table.
Really, what
it amounted to, the girl was picking up the tips and not
doing the work.
That was just one unusual waitress that I
had and she didn •t stay with us long, because most of the
girls stayed year, after · year, after year, and they, too,
became part of the family.
PM:
Now, how long did a guest stay at the Inn when they
came to stay?
EB:
Oh, they came probably the first of July and they stay
July and August until we closed it Labor Day.
PM:
And back in 1929, around that period, what would it cost
someone to stay at the Inn?
EB:
Around fifteen dollars a week, including three meals a
day, and let me explain "three meals a day." Breakfast was
big, they would eat a huge breakfast; then we didn't say
"lunch", we said "dinner" in the middle of the day and that
�14
consisted maybe of a meat and seven, or eight, or nine
vegetables, and a salad and dessert.
And the~e thing
was what we called "supper", only it wasn't dinner it was
"supper."
We would serve maybe two meats and maybe as many
as nine vegetables.
I was holding up
we always did.
the
I remember I used to count to be sure
standard and having as
many things as
Usually about nine, including the fruits
and vegetables, you know.
three meals a day.
And the people ate consistently
I think invariably they gained weight
during the summer, but they enjoyed it, so that was all
right.
PM:
What would these people do for two months while they
were staying here at Blowing Rock?
EB:
There was no entertainment of any kind at Blowing
Rock, no attractions, no movies, no auctions, nothing they
could do at the inn except for getting out and walking and
taking hikes.
If the weather was bad they stayed at home
and sat around and talked to each other, or else if they
became restless and wanted a little more activity they would
get in the dining room and play games, and even move back the
chairs and dance, just entertain themselves.
PM:
So the guests would entertain themselves, and would
mingle and mix with all the other guests?
EB:
Oh yes, oh yes, and I think we were really so fortunate
in having this type people who did enjoy other people, and
it wasn't long until at the end of the season when they
would begin to leave and go back home, they would say to
each other, "See you next summer," and next summer they
�15
would see each other because they looked forward to coming
back with the same crowd that they had enjoyed the summer
before.
PM:
So, we had the same people year after year, after . year.
What would happen during the non-season after you
closed at Labor Day?
What all happened around the Sunshine
Inn?
EB:
We just hibernated practically.
we looked forward to that;
In a way, of course,
as much as we enjoyed the tour-
ists we did look forward to everything being quiet and not
having to work so hard.
Really, though, you may not think
pf it as a year-round job, but it
was~
because we're do-it-
yourself people and we did our own work.
We'd start painting
rooms, or doing repair work, or things that we
~ould
do
during the period that we were closed that we couldn't do
during the summer.
So really, it was more or less a year-
round job.
PM:
What happened to your waitresses .and help?
What would
they do during the winter?
EB:
The girls were usually high school girls, so, of course,
they in school during the winter.
Our cooks had a little
home down off the mountain and they did what everybody else
did, we ..• Somehow or another, I never knew, but we managed
to make enough money in the summer to survive the winter,
so our cooks, the old colored couple, would just rest up
during the winter.
PM:
Now, where would they stay during the summer?
EB:
We
had a room right back of the kitchen and that was
Maggie and John's room.
�16
PM:
Maggie and John, what was their last name?
EB:
Jones.
PM:
And they stayed with you throughout
EB:
Throughout the summer, yes.
summer?
They had their own room:
just real convenient, just open the kitchen door and go right
into their room.
While I'm sure at first they must not have
had their own bathroom, eventually we did add their own bathroom
and also another room for additional help.
So, we grew, and, of
course, then we did everything on our own.
The government--the
state, the county, the town--didn't bother us.
They could have
cared less how we run and operated, and run our business, and we
were entirely on our own.
We didn't have to bother
. with Social
Security, sales tax, privileges, licenses, unemployment tax,
which we did have to bother with later.
And, of course, then,
the health department was beginning to take an interest in
the
public eating places, and establishments, so we had eventually
to change to their standards.
They were very lenient with us,
I think they were with the older places, but we certainly had to
make certain changes and adjustments and probably that's the
reason we put in more bathrooms, and changed equipment in the
kitchen to meet the standards of the health department.
PM:
Do you recall how much Mister and Missus Jones were paid
when they were working for you?
EB:
Did they start in1929?
Yes, and I paid them together, as a husband and wife.
They
were a team so I paid them twenty five dollars a week in addition
to their meals and their room, which they thought was great, and
r~
I thought it was pretty good myself really to have paid
them that much.
But before they left I think I was paying them
�17
instead of the combined salary of twenty-five dollars a week,
anywhere from eighty to a hundred dollars each a week: that's
how much things changed during that period.
PM:
What do you recall about Mister Jones and Missus Jones as
they worked around the Sunshine Inn?
EB:
Oh, they were just so loyal to the business.
In fact, they
were just as concerned and interested in the business as we were,
and certainly so conscientious about their work.
to do and they felt responsible for that job.
the cooking.
They had a job
It just wasn't
Every morning John would go in and light the stove
and while the stove was heating up he would go out and sweep all
the walkways in the front, and the front porch.
They seemed to
take it for granted this was their job, and they did it.
And if
you happened to help them out, or to do some of their job, they
resented it, because they felt like, ''Well, I'm not living to
my bargain to do this job," and they really resented it.
And they
felt a concern if business wasn't good, in fact, they hesitated
to take their money if we wasn't doing a good business.
They
said, "You haven't made this, so I hate to take the money that
I know is hard for you to pay."
But this was their attitude
toward us and toward the business, too.
PM:
Did you ever have to discipline any of your employees, not
only Mister and Missus Jones, but any of the other employees?
How would you all settle the problems?
EB:
I think just like a family.
If the girls 9ave us any pro-
blems, I always hesitated on pointing out a girl in
something
that she had done that was not quite what we wanted her . to do,
but I don't think I was ever cut out to be a boss.
Even though
�18
I felt they needed corrections, I was very hes·d .tant to correct
them.
I would sort of beat around the bush, you know, and call
all the girls together for a"family conference", and we would
sit down and somehow or other I would work around to this thing
that had bothered me and not point out that "You're the guilty
one," but it was something that had to be adjusted.
So we had
no hard feelings then between our relationship and the same way
with John and Maggie.
Invariably people are going to make mis-
takes--sometimes burn up something, or burn some food--Maggie
would be so distressed about this.
She'd say, "Missus Burns,
if I were in your place I wouldn 't put up with me.
fire me."
I would
But then I had that feeling of closeness to Maggie,
I would say, "Maggie, if I never made a boo-boo myself then I
might fire you, but as long as I make them myself then I can't
condemn you for making them."
we had with our help.
That was the relationship that
In fact, I never says, "You work for me.
You work with me."
PM:
Is that what you would say?
EB:
Oh y.es, and that really works.
You get more loyalty from
your help, and more work, really.
PM:
Did you work just as hard as they did?
EB:
Oh yes!
I nev.er would ask them to do anything I wouldn't
do myself, and I can't think of a single thing that I didn't do
sometime or other: from a-waiting tables, cooking meals, washing
dishes, and cleaning rooms.
I went into every, every bit of it.
It didn't bother me.
PM:
And was your husband doing the same thing?
EB:
Oh yes, oh yes.
PM:
Did he ever wash a dish?
�19
EB:
At the beginning of the season and in order to cut down on
things financially while things were slow, he was the dishwasher.
He .was the dishwasher.
And I was
the maid.
Here such a good
relationship existed between our guests and us, that while I did
all of the maid work ... And we had a lot of fun with it because
I'd knock on the door and say, "This is Mary the maid, may I come
in?"
Invariably they'd open the door and say, "Well, you don't
have to bother our room, we've already made up our beds and
straightened up our rooms, so there's nothing to do."
maid work got easier and easier.
So, my
That's the type of people we
had; that they really looked after themselves.
PM:
They'd continue to come back over the years?
EB:
Oh, year, after year, after year, after year.
PM:
Now, what was the shortest time, do you recall, right at the
very beginning that people would stay at the inn?
EB:
Oh, people just never came for any less than two weeks.
just didn't have any overnight guests.
We
If we were thinking from
a financial standpoint that would have been great because you had
to change sheets constantly, you had to clean rooms constantly,
and really, it was good for us to have people come and stay for
a long period of time, both from the work standpoint and from a
financial standpoint.
To see how people liked the simple things
and the simple way of life, and the plain food and everything, it
came to me from a man that we had .•. Of course, alot of people
wrote in for reservations!
they were coming to.
They had no idea what kind of place
But we had a Mister Dillon from Florida who,
I think was awfully disappointed when he came in.
He evidently was
pretty wealthy, and he had written to us for a reservation, and we
�20
had confirmed his reservation.
His son brought him up, he
didn't drive, he was rather an elderly man, and I sensed the
minute he came in that he was disappointed, that he expected a
little more elaborate accomodations, you know.
Also, his son
was, I think, at first skeptical. But it was a little late so
they spent the night.
But the next morning, and this he told
me later, "We went over to Mayview Manor and looked around, and, r•
he says, "we both had a feeling that Sunshine Inn wasn't quite
up to what we thought it was going to be, so we went to Mayview
Manor."
But the man didn't drive, and he told his son, "Since
I don't, I'll just go on and stay down at Sunshine for a few
days anyway."
So, it wasn't but. about two or three days until
he was just the happiest old man.
He said the simplicity had
really been great for him, and the friendship, because we had
a lot--I guess we'd say--"old maids" who were delighted in
entertaining this old widower.
His wife had died just a month
or two before and he was really depressed, but he came out of
it and thoroughly enjoyed it.
And he told me later that he
wouldn't stay anyplace else for anything in the world and he came
back as long as we were in business, every summer.
PM:
How long did he come?
Do you recall?
EB:
I believe about twelve years.
And that was the nice part
about our business because we kept having the same people over,
and over, and over.
And they seemed to fit in perfectly.
Of
course, everybody· has a few instances when things are not too
pleasant.
PM:
Can you give me an idea of some of those unpleasant things?
EB:
Well, we had one family come in, and I say this through no
reflection of the Jewish people, but they were Jewish and they
�21
asked to see the rooms and they were very, very critical.
And
they were not at all friendly to the other guests, which horrified me.
They had accepted the rooms, though and were going
to stay, but I just had a feeling I don't know whether this is
going to work out too well or not.
So, I said to him as we
went to the door, "I don't believe you're going to like it here.
I just don't think you're going to like it here at all."
I
says, "We have the nicest, friendliest people, most congenial
guests in the world, and I just don't believe you'll like it."
So, that was one instance where .•• It just didn't happen often
because it seemed like we were unusually fortunate in having
the cream of the crop.
PM:
Can you recall any other unhappy--we don't like to think
of all the unhappiness, but I think it kind of gives a balance,
we do have those times when it's not happy.
EB:
Oh yes, I know we have to face them because they do exist,
and too, I think it shows not always when there's criticism,
and it has taught me certainly to be very lenient and understanding of eating places where things might happen that you
certainly don't want to happen.
Oh, we were just swamped!
But we were so rushed one night.
And I think really that I was aware,
but not entirely aware because I was in the kitchen, and this
family sat in the dining room and evidently didn't get but a
few of the thing$that we served for our evening meal.
I was
rushing between the kitchen and the cash register and I went
out with a big smile, you know, expecting him to say he had enjoyed the meal, which I had grown accustomed to.
let me have it.
But boy! he
He said I ought to be ashamed of myself for
�22
cheating the public like that.
And he was really, really in-
dignant about it. And my feathers fell just like that, but it
was due to the rush and the girls just didn't get around to
serving him, and serving him all the food we had and he was too
impatient to wait for the food.
Those things happen at every
place, I'm sure of that, too.
But I think about the funniest
thing that happened:
s~aying
A couple came in to eat, they were not
in the house, but they just came in to meals, and they
had been coming in for several days and on the morning they ·
were leaving they came in for breakfast.
Very nice, and had
really complimented the meals everytime they'd eaten there.
On that morning, though, that they were leaving they came in
and ate cantiloupe, and they ate oatmeal, and we served as an
order, too, eggs and two slices of bacon, or sausage, they ate
that with toast.
Then they ate hot cakes, then they ate French
toast, then they ordered another order of eggs.
Now, we never
hesitated to give people everything they ordered because we advertised all they can eat, and all you want, for the same price.
So, they ordered the second order of eggs and when the girl
took it in they started fussing.
suit them.
The eggs were not fixed to
They were either too soft or too hard.
Well, she
took that order of eggs back and got another order and she
brought those and they just wouldn't do at all.
worst tasting eggs they ever saw.
times.
They were the
She took those back.
Three
Really, the people at the table next to them said it was
just really terrible the way they talked to the girl in their
criticism of the food.
Of course, everybody knew they'd eaten
so much nothing could taste good to them at that stage.
The
�23
girl finally sent for me to come in and talk to them myself,
so I went in and I said, "Really, we'd do everything we could
to please them and get their order straight, but if they were
not happy with it then we ·
money."
certainly would not take their
So, they ended up by not paying for their breakfast.
I think that was the point all the time.
But you run into that,
invariably you have a few who are very critical, and impatient,
but we certainly were fortunate in having very, very few through
the years.
PM:
What was the relationship that Mister and Missus Jones had
to your guests? Did anything happen that would kind of give us
an idea of what that relationship was as far as segregation
goes?
EB:
Oh, Certainly Maggie and John had no thought of associat-
ing with our guests.
They would have hated that more than our
guests would have resented it because the guests would come into
the kitchen and talk with Maggie and John and compliment them
on their cooking abilities, but Maggie and John would never, in
any way, take advantage of what they thought their place was
then.
As colored people they felt like they had a place
and
they stayed in it, even to the extent that if we who felt as
close to them as anyone could possibly feel, like they were part
of our family, but they, in their humility, if we'd sit down at
the table while they were eating they'd put their plates
in
their laps.
PM:
They'd still sit there and eat?
EB:
Sit there there yes, but not with their plate on the table.
Now that I don't know whether it was just part of their humility
�24
or if they felt the difference in the color, or why they did
that I don't know.
But to me it was significant of the •••
being the difference between the black and the white, as it
was considered back during those days .
PM:
What about the relationship with their children and your
children?
They did have one son?
(Begin Tape #2, side one)
PM:
We were talking about the Jones' nephew who lived with
them and just the relationship that the nephew had with your
own children as he was growing up.
EB:
It was just like
brothers, especially my younger son,
and believe it or not his name was Sweet.
We called him Sweet.
They had no ••. no consciousness that one was black and one was
white.
They could see no reason why they couldn't eat together,
they couldn't sleep together, they couldn't take trips together.
They saw no reason at all why they couldn't associate just as
brothers.
And they did, really.
But at one point where they
wanted to go off on a trip and spend the night to a ballgame,
Maggie, bless her heart, she was just the greatest, she took
Sweet aside and said, "Sweet , you just can't do do this.
just don't do this."
You
She says, "Colored people just don't go
off with white people like that," she says, "You just can't do
it."
And the same thing she told him when Ronnie wanted to
spend the night in Sweet's room, "No, that just won't do. You're
black and he's white and that won't do."
But Maggie accepted
it as such.
PM:
Did Maggie ever make any statements as to how she felt a-
bout being segregated?
�25
EB:
Just one or two times.
Not so much on segregation, the
difference between the black and the white, as people not
associating together, even the whites with the whites, which
seemed down through the years people became more and more, I
guess the word's selfish, they wanted to be by themselves.
So,
if there was any problem with that someone sitting with anyone
else at a table, she couldn't understand that.
wonder
She just would
what they would do when they got to Heaven.
But and too
of course, I heard her then so many times say that the nurses
of the families that had Negro mamies to look after their children and they, too, seemed to have such a close relationship
and Maggie would remark that she just couldn't understand how
that relationship could be so close and yet be such a difference in their social standing, and in their opportunities.
So
she did feel it to a certain extent.
PM:
What about her husband, did you ever have any feelings
that he felt that way?
EB:
John, he was I think maybe just really afraid to say any-
thing along this line.
Now John told me this, I don't know
I
that it's true, but way back when my father was building the
~
store and they were making brick to buildAstore, John says he
helped, came up from his little place down there and helped
make that brick, and he said there was such a feeling even then
between the blacks and whites that he was afraid to stay up here,
and that there were times when they had gotten stoned, I mean
had rocks thrown at them, you know.
So, John seemed to have a
fear there of ever expressing his own opinion.
back from that period.
Maybe it dated
�26
PM:
Well, tell me about your attitude about business.
did you approach making · money as such?
Let~s
How
put it this
way: how did you keep books, and how did you determine the
prices that you were going to charge?
EB:
Well, to begin with, we didn't keep any books.
Like I
said, it was our own business so if we made some money all right
and if we didn't then that was our bad luck, too.
But as far
as bookkeeping, we just didn't keep any books, or we didn't
have a cash register.
Then, of course though, as we bought
wholesale I was conscious of prices in terms o.f the menus that
we were serving.
For instance, I knew that for two dollars we
could not serve T-bone steaks, and I was conscious of the fact
that certainly while country ham was one of our main attractions,
especially on Sunday ·morning, the time came when we could not
serve country ham at seventy-five cents for breakfast, you see.
And I was conscious of prices from that respect, but during all
those years I don't think I ever sat down and figured actually
how much a meal would cost me and if we took in enough money to
take care of the cost of the meal that I had served .
PM:
Well, how would you price breakfast, for example?
What
would go through your mind when you would finally say that this
breakfast is going to cost seventy-five
cen~,
or a dollar, or
however much it cost?
EB:
I guess really through, from experience.
I thought,"Well,
we're not going to lose money on this breakfast, we may not make
any, but we're not going to lose money on this breakfast."
I
guess I thought more of volume that anything else, because if
we had enough people then we'd take in more money and that would
take care of the cost of the meal. As for actually sitting down
�27
and estimating the price of the meal and our profit, later,
of course, all bf the salesmen began to push portions, well ,
you know, "a portion of meat will cost you so much,"
but I'd
get real irritated with them and said, "Well, I'm not concerned
in portions," because our meals, , meats, were put on platters
and we'd put enough portions on that until we had no doubt.
We just didn't want.' to run out,so portions didn't mean a thing
to me.
And it was hard, really, to estimate the price of maybe
a twenty-five, thirty pound roast in regard to portions because
some people ate so much more than others.
we couldn't count on that, you know.
The way we served
We'd let people have as
much as they wanted•
PM:
Why do you suspect that the salesmen were pushing portions,
and encouraging you to go by the portion route?
EB:
Profits.
To really give us a bigger profit, I think. Then
I would know just exactly how much my meat was costing me.
that was the big item of course, the meat, it
~s
Well
now; it was then.
So, I guess really, the way I estimated . was I paid a hundred
dollars for the meat for a meal.
Well, we'll serve maybe a hun-
dred and fifty people, so I guess that's the way I really judged
whether or not we were going to lose money or make money.
Be-
cause we could estimate then on the people we were going to
serve.
If this amount of meat will serve that many people, then
I'm not going to lose money or I'm going to make money.
PM:
When you say I'm going to make money, would you say twenty
per cent, or fifty per cent?
Were you trying to just make a
little money, or a lot of money, or break even?
EB:
We were trying to make a living, that was about it and
�28
really we were pretty well satisfied with the living because
we felt like if we made enough during the summer to live on
during the winter we were doing pretty well.
PM:
When you say "to make enough to live on," do you mean
enough to buy your own food, to buy your own fuel and have
a little spending money throughout the winter?
EB:
Yes, and we thought we were doing pretty well to do that.
And when you think about it, that's pretty good to work those
months in the summer and ·then loaf the rest of the time, although we really didn't loaf.
wouldn't
rou
That you can say is pretty good,
say, really?
PM:
I feel good about it.
EB:
We didn't have money in the bank.
In fact, I don't think
really either of us thought about how much money we were making,
we just took it as it came.
If we made some money, okay, if
we didn't,okay.
PM:
Did you save money over the years?
EB:
Yes, at the end of the season I sort of estimated how much
would it take for us to get through the winter and if we had it
on deposit and if I felt like we could afford a hundred or two
dollars I'd put1in Watauga Savings and Loan, and it's amazing
if you put it there and forget about it what it can do. That's
part of my living today I'll tell you.
PM:
Well, can you tell me how has the tourist business changed
over the years and when did you retire, 19 .•• ?
EB:
About five years ago.
PM:
That was 1969?
EB:
Sixty-nine.
�29
PM:
From 1929 to 1969, that's forty years, how did the business
change?
EB:
The good and the bad?
Well, I think the biggest change was the transits people
that came in, people who were on the go.
We had alot more over-
night guests than we had back in the old days.
And then in the
contentment--I guess contentment's a good word--people were so
content with the simple things, I mean not much entertainment,
they didn't have to be entertained.
But as years went on, it
seems that that was the main thing they looked for in a tourist
town was all the attractions, the recreation facilities, and
the entertainment.
this line?"
"Well, what have you got to offer along
So, that definitely was the biggest change, the
restlessness of the people and their demands for entertainment
and recreation facilities, which was unheard of in the earlier
days.
PM:
You know, this area has certainly changed in those ways
and they offer people quite a few things I think to do.
you see that as positive?
EB:
Do
Is that good or is that bad?
Why certainly, it's helped the tourist business, there's
no doubt about that.
Whereas I would say it has doubled, the
tourist business, over doubled since we first started.
And I
expect it's certainly due to these attractions that have come
in:
Land of Oz
and Tweetsie. We still, if we want to progress
as a tourist town, have a long way to go in attractions for the
young people.
Of course, from years back we had horseback rid-
ing and hiking, those were things put on the brochures about
Blowing Rock, but the young people don't care for that now. They
want actual entertainment, some kind of amusement, and we've
�30
cJI'"&
got a long way yet to entice the young people in.
And we Astill
sort of a retired, older people's tourist town.
PM:
Can you recall any particular effort you were involved in
getting more and more people to come here, maybe through the
Chamber of Commerce, or •.. ?
EB:
We contributed to the Chamber of Commerce, but I don't
think I was very cooperative in the advertising.
Their ways
of advertising to me, they would put all the posters, and do
all the advertising in other states and along the highways.
Then people would come here but be disappointed becau"'e they
didn 't have the recreatio
be they had expected .
faciliti es or attra ctions that may-
It was the same way at the Inn.
very little advertising.
Just in this past summer you see a
great big s ign, "Sunshine Inn", dmm here.
new.
Well, really, that's
That's new, \'e didn't have anything like that.
like rather than
We did
I felt
spend money putting out signs and advertising,
if I could put that mane
place more attractive for
into something that would make my
the people who came there, to me that
would be a bigger advantage than all the signs that I could
put out on the hig ways , because then tho se people were happy
and satisfied and they would go and tell others, and to me that's
the best way to advertis •
And I felt like this
as the same
with Blow-i ng Rock, though certainly we cooperated with the Chamber of Commerce and all the projects that the town
et forth as
the aim to bring in more touri s t trade.
PM:
Your Sunshine Inn was a family-owned, run, operation, there
were other attractions or homes t hat were not family-owned, could
you tell a difference between the family-owned and the operations
�31
that were not family-owned, in the way they wer
EB:
operated?
Yes , yes , the people who-- I hope I ' m not s ying something
that sometime later anybody might resent--but this certainly
is refle cted on the local people a d their attitud e toward
business .
Because i
r ecent years we have gotten so many , es-
pecially from Florida , m .n or people who have come in and
ought
motels , or have go e into businese here.
They seem purely t
think of it fr o
"We
a financial
and this is our aim, a n
tandpoint:
ant to make mo ey ,
r gardle "' s we 're going to ma ke mo ey."
The local people, when it' s a local person, he doesn ' t have that
attitude at all .
It ' s more th
inst ad of making
tation .
i te e t of the entire town , and
alot of money , j u t have a good repu-
So that local feeling toward bu
ines~
how s I thi k in
all the places , the e s tablis ments , that we have now .
PM:
Are there 1
any establi shment s r n , or
different
o~med
by people fro
or different state· , owned by them
area~
have them op rat
by s omebody
el~e?
nd th n they
Do you know of many like
that nO\<V ?
EB:
Do you mean that th
PM:
Rig t .
EB:
Yes .
lo aJ people have sold out t o?
It' s happening more and more an
very, v ery few, eve
local people .
rig t now there s
the motelR that are -""d and
People fr o
oth r se ction s
o ght th em , and operat e them.
f
p erated by
t he countr
h v
come in
nd
It ' s dist re ssing t
me that
o mariy of the busi e s e s and the shops up the street ,
0
all of them are going out of the hand s of local people.
PM:
Is there any particular r aso
that loc al people ar
busines
0
for it other than the f ct
ju . . t getting 'tired of their
and selling to
.hoever com s in?
OvJri
particular
�32
Well ,
EB:
y s
and I '"' .r . talkine; about it t is morning i
ur f eel ing toward the tourists and them taking the b sinesses
in Blowing Rock.
He says it '
not that feeling of" res
tment,
b t it's the feeling that the e people can have money , mo tly
retired p ople ,
a
a f ford.
1~0
can afford alot more tha
the local peopl e
And thy will offer maybe such a f nt
f r a buf'i es s , t at th
lo a J peopl
for that pri ce , and they ' ve
got the
oney to do it.
O\I
But this
And this is what
rese ts becauce he and his wife c:ir- e li ing i
apart el'.1t
ric
will certainly sell it
has re ulted in real e tate going out of sight.
my so
t ic
a litt
r h re now of min, and they 1ould like v ry much
t o hav . ah me, yet he s ayc all th ese p eople with so much money
come in her
an
pay such fanta tic prices for thing
no chance in the world he can have a home,
real
no~
there's
at the price of
state.
PM:
You didn't sense th·s back when you were a young girl?
RB:
No , oh no !
PM:
Prices weren ' t being pushed up?
EB:
No , no and certainly local people o n d and operat ed m s t
of the busi e s es, if not all of them back then, I expect th
id.
r M:
Do they operate them with the same philosophy that you did
of having a good busines
caring about maki g
EB:
You know, I t i
and a good reputatio
lot of money?
I can say tru.thfully that i
of the local people becau e I think of now the
and the inn right above us, th
t e attitu e
Marti
Hol:.... ,
Green Inn, it seemed that they
really enjoy d operati g their pla e
in, not wit
v..itl cut really
and having the tourist
the idea of making alot of money.
come
I r ally belie e
�33
t hat wa
the att i tude of
most of t e l ocal people . Back then
especiall y.
PM:
One th "ng I j st wanted to hit on , you ' v e already t al ked
a bout it, can you r e call any of those game
people played , in
your pa rlor I guesc , when t hey came in as tourist s , a s summer
peopl e ?
EB :
There ' s one they ca ll ed " Pi g" and I cannot r e e ber t he
details of t he game , but I remember it wa s ver y hilar ious and
evident l y t he pi g woul d put h i s f inger by th e s ide of hi s nose
and t hen t here wa s a l ot of holl ering and whooping.
On e t ine
we had a senator, v·e ry eld erly, ret ired s enator there with hi s
wife , and his health wasn't good and he had a nurse the r e with
him .
All of t he guests were in the dining room playing Pig,
and of course, there were other games we played as children
that you wouldn't think that they would enjoy, but they thoroughly enjoyed.
You know Post Office and all this, they tho-
roughly enjoyed it.
But one night I think everybody was es-
pecially having fun, it was sort of noisy you know, laughing
and talking, and this old senator had a room on the same floor
as the dining room and he was a rather dignified person anyway,
~( 'ffil ; ~
and suddenlyAin the room got quiet, just quiet as could be, nobody made a noise, we looked up and in the dining room door
stood this old man in
knees.
his night shirt that just came to his
And he was a little withered up sort of man anyway.
He looked like something out of a story book standing there in
the dining room door, but he was just as stern, he wanted to
know what was going on in there, that his sleep was being disturbed.
He went back to his room, but the next morning he came
�34
to me, "Miz Burns, you weren't in there last night in all that
noise, were you?"
I sort of hung my head and said, "Well, I
was in there."
PM:
What did he say about that?
Did he ask you not to do it
again?
EB:
No, no he didn't.
but he soon got over it.
Evidently he was irritated at the time,
They had been used to a little
more formality than we were able to offer at the Inn.
bit
His son,
too was a political figure, so they were looking for him to come
up and
they wanted us to put on just a little extra, you know,
when he got there.
So, I had agreed with his wife that I would
put bread and butter plates on, you know, and really put on a
little bit, spread it on for him.
It happened that he came in
right while they were eating the noon meal and they were ready
for the noon meal so instead of all that formality nothing could
have been w0rse because we just took two tables and shoved them
811
together withAthe informality.
It had no dignity to it at all.
But he was perfectly happy.
PM:
What was the music that they liked?
Was it local people
coming in performing for them, playing the instruments that they
play, or phonograph, or record player, or did they have any
music when they played these games, or when they entertained
themselves?
EB:
No, we just didn't have any music.
If ever anybody wanted
to tap their foot and clap they did it, but not any
real music.
I think that was one thing that we ••• Down through the years when
you walked into a dining room you expected to hear music of some
kind, the soft music you know, we never used it.
Just the last
�35
few years my husband got interested in intercom and he rigged
up something where we could have it, but the reaction we had
to that was certainly not good, because any number of people
said, "Oh, why did you put in that music?"
because one thing
they enjoyed about coming there was the quietness and peacefulness, you know, and that they didn't have to listen to all
this music.
And so that was sort of symbolic to me, too, of
what people, of what they enjoyed.
You
know , I wonder some-
times if it's good to people to have all this music and noise
while they're eating?
PM:
Do you recall from 1929 on when people began to change,
and didn't play the parlor games and entertain themselves?
EB:
Just about the time, now, I don't remember dates, I don't
know how many years it's been that the auctions came in.
Of
course, then, people begain instead of staying home in the evening and sitting around talking or singing--they sang, but no
musical instruments--they would go to the auctions.
And before
we retired the house had been entirely empty, as quiet as a
mouse after dinner.
Everybody'd be gone to the auctions, or a
movie, or up on the street window shopping, or off to see some
kind of entertainment.
PM:
As time went on and you were in business, you said at the
beginning you really didn't have to worry about the government,
the town, the state, as far as running your business, how did
that change over a period of time in terms of your relationship
to the work, what you
EB:
ha~e
to do?
I just don't remember how long we operated without, shall
I say , "interference" from the government or the state, that
�36
certainly it was over a good many years.
And I think maybe
the first thing came the privilege license that we had to pay
to operate and that we had to pay for every chair that we had
in the
~ining
room.
This came as a privilege license from the
state, and then later from the town, too, we had to pay the
license from the town.
(Begin Side Two)
PM:
We were talking about the different licenses and the af-
feet the government had on business ..•
EB:
Like I said, I can't remember exactly when it started, but
I do remember that gradually these men began to come in and ask
ahouf
questionsAyour business, and if you were doing so-and-so, and
if you were ... Really, it seems to me like when the sales tax
started, that thing;tbegan to get complicated then because they
were constantly checking.
They were doing their jobs, but at
the same time taking alot of our time and alot of our money,
too.
For many years, what we made was ours, we had no taxes
of any kind, but then before we closed
ther~ocial Security,
s~l<S
there waSAtax, there was withholding tax--that I resented more
than any other tax--there was withholding tax, unemployment
compensation, that's the one I mentioned, though.
You know
the expression, it took a Philadelphia lawyer to keep books
after that because these reports had to go in.
And not only
were these taxes put on us, but they told us exactly how to
run our business, too.
Now, this was true.
They told us how
many we could hire, how long they could work, under what conditions they could work, they could work so many hours and that's
hard when you're not working by the hour as you don't in the
�37
tourist business.
And at what age you could hire someone.
Really, I guess if I would say I was thankful to be out of it
that was the reason because of the things that were involved
in a small business like that.
lie
PM:
Come 1969, you were glad toAgetting out of the business?
EB:
From that standpoint, yes.
For sentimental reasons, and
certainly tradition, made me very sad to . leave
i~.
And I
think the fact that we had been there forty years, that we'd
build, and it wasn't just that that I hated it, too, because
we'd left so many disappointed people.
These people that had
been coming to us for years and years and counted on spending
their vacation with us, they were without a place to stay because
you know it's hard to accept a new operator after being used
to one for forty years.
You know, no matter how well they do,
your old people are going to find something that's wrong.
So,
about their management, I not only felt hurt in a way for my
ownself, but to think that I had let these people down, which
I was getting really to the point where I had no choice.
We
had been in business long enough and we were giving out under
it.
But you feel, "Oh, they're going to be so disappointed
this summer when they come back."
PM:
Is there any one particular family, or couple, or single
person, that you recall came back more than anybody else did?
EB:
Well, we had any number of people who came as long as
ten, twelve years every summer, but I suppose that one that
really stands out is Mister and Missus Butler.
He was a busi-
ness manager at Elon College and he and his wife spent their
honeymoon with us when they were married, then they never missed a summer, until
we went out of business and then by that
�38
time they had a daughter, I believe about twelve, fifteen
years old. .
PM:
Well, I've certainly enjoyed talking to you and hope
you've enjoyed it.
EB:
I've thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm afraid I haven't
been much help.
(The End)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Morgan, Pat
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Burns, Ethel
Interview Date
1/5/1975
Location
The location of the interview.
Blowing Rock, NC
Number of pages
43 pages
Date digitized
9/22/2014
File size
27.4MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
26038cec110dad3b109b51bc825c7ab7
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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111_tape353_EthelBurns_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ethel Burns [January 5, 1975]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Morgan, Pat
Burns, Ethel
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes
Burn, Ethel
Description
An account of the resource
Ethel Burns grew up and eventually took over the Sunshine Inn, an establishment that housed "the summer people" or the upper-class tourists who came to Blowing Rock over the summer for vacation. They housed them and provided three meals a day for fifteen dollars a week. She recalls that everyone felt a sort of reverence for the summer people but her father "still felt his authority and his own individuality in his relationship to them." The tourists didn't have much to do in Blowing Rock in those days, only hiking and walking and spending time with the other residents.
bed and breakfast
Blowing Rock
Chamber of Commerce
community club
Ethel Burns
Great Depression
Land of Oz
Rowan County
segregation
summer festival
summer residents
The Sunshine Inn
tourist business
Tweetsie
-
https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/61b8ac98d1bdb562a48623aec5d27a7e.pdf
ffd35fd69fb38b80c4fa9af45d98ddd6
PDF Text
Text
This is an ·Appalachian Oral History Project interview with
M
r. Perry Hicks of M
arion, North Carolina who is a retired mill
worker. He was interviewed by Sam Howie on December Jl, 1975.
Q.
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Some of the first things we need to know are thi ng s like where
you we re born.
Well, I was born in Haywood County in the extreme western part
of North Carolina, right inside of North Carolina. Our closest
neighbors we r e in Tennessee •••• back in the extreme western part,
near Pigeon River.
Pigeon Rive r?
I was raised on a company's land. My father paid $25 a y e ar,
standing rent, on the mountain f a rm. And he raised hogs, c a ttle
and livestock and he farmed. He raised wheat, corn, oats, rye,
irish potatoes. The land produced rye and oats in abundance,
and irish potatoes and cabbage and vegetables. But the corn made
about 15 bushels an acre, about 6 to 8 bushels of wheat per acre,
and about 20 bushels of rye, and about 20 or 25 bushels of oats.
And , I was raise d there and we had a three-month school. We went
to school through July, August and September, at an old sawmill
shanty. And my daddy left there when I was ab out 12 years oad and
went farther back in Haywood County to a big double-band sawmill.
He went there for the e x press reason to send me and my brother
to a six-mon th school. We was up to a pretty good size. About
the only thing I learned wa s how to hobo a railroad engin e in
old log[ ing trains. It 'd leav e there in the morning ab out the
time my daddy went to work.
I 'd get on it and go to the mountains
and come back in just ab o ut dinnertime and go to the house and
eat my dinner. I went back, I went back to the mountains •• I did
most of the ti me. The thing that got me out of heart about g oing
to school was that most of the students were stupid or dumb or
something o r d i dn't care about learni ng and the tead.her appointed
me to try to help them learn.
nd I went from seat to seat for
a week or two and I wasn't making any progr e ss. They weren't
learning, and the teacher would get on me ••• so I got out of heart
and quit . ' Then my daddy bought a farm in Madison County, moved
back there, and stayed til I reckon it was 1920. But in the
meantime I met my wife and me and her was married. I was 17 years
old, she wa s 16. That 's been 59 years ago .
What year we~e y ou born in?
I was born in 1899 and we decided to come to t h e cotton belt •••
here to M
arion and we come up there and I went to work in the mill.
What year wa s that?
That was 1919 that I went to work in the cotton mill.
Which mill was that? Was1 that in •••
That was Clinchfield.
Clin chfield?
It's Clinchfield. The one that you came by.
The bi e one?
And the mill run 12 hours a day. Of cours e , the day I worked was
10 hours , but the wheels and machinery they would stop at 12
hou rs.
I went to work in the card room for a dollar for 10
hours, got a dollar a day. I paid 45 cents per week for house
rent, for a three-room house.
W
as it a mill village then, that you lived in?
Yeah.
Clinchfield mill villa g e?
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Yeah, Cli n chfield village.
Did you have to live in the mill village to work in the mill?
No, you didn't have to but it was cheaper. They furnished the
house. It took 700 hands to run the two mills at that time. We
was up there, I don't remember how many years, several years
though. There was a man who come in here organized a union.
What years?
Two cotton mills.
Was that in 1929?
I guess it was. Yeah , it wa s. And oh, he got the East Marion
mill pretty well organi zed . The mill I was working in, they
never did go so str ong for the union. All of the bus i nesses in
M
arion was bitterly opposed to it.
To the union?
Yeah , to the union. And, of course, by me being nonunion, I
was let in the inside of wha t was going to happen. I was sworn
to secrecy not to tell anybody what I knowed about what was go i ng
to happen. But I knowed the union wasn ' t gping to win and I
knowed the unio~··· ah, the company was not going to accept it,
the people wasn t going to accept it. The town and the businesses
wasn't going to accept it. They were se ar ching all the time for
something that they could try the union organizer for, in the law.
Take a warrant for him ahd try him.
Do you remember his name?
Hoffman . And he went right on and closed the mill I was working
at for three weeks a nd they got ready to start it up and they told
us all where to get to, t o come in on a certa i n Mo nday morning .
And we went there, and I was the first person to get ther e th t
morning , me and my brother-in-law. We went up on a bank and the
union neve~ did see us. But when they began to gather in, to go
to work, the union people they was on the picket line, they had
the spies and they all came in there. And the union got to
singing hymns and inviting people t o come to the ••• to be saved,
t hat is come in and join the union. And th9 superintendent,
Henderson, he c a me in and when he went to open the gate, why some
of them caught his coattails and drug him backwards. So he said
ev e rybody go home.
o we all went home and in another week they
notified us to gather up one day again a t 12 o'clock at the company
office.
That was the superintendent's office?
Yeah, so that day we all come and there was number one, number
two mill and we wa s going to try to start up number two mill.
It was the b iggest mill.
nd of course the union was evtErywhere.
It was closed. h nd we got the ••• finally got the soldiers in
there. 'l bey pushed t h em back.
nd we got inside t h e lock.
W
ell, we had enough help to start the smaller mill.
o they took
us all ov e r to the smaller mill and we started up at 12 o'clock
that day. Then after that, it was all over with. They cut the
hours down at the mi l l. Of course all along they'd be.gun rais i ng
the wag es. And I had got up to piecework and I made 18 dollars
and 75 cents a we ek , five days and a half on piece work.
ow many hours a d ay?
W
ell, I worked 12 hours a day b e cau s e every hour I worked was more
money to me. They started t h e machi n e ry at 6 o 'clock in the
morning, but I was always on hand to start my ·ob. Then me and
somebody would work together, and he wo uld take my job am. his
�J.
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too while I was of f to l u nch. And I'd come back and watch h is
job and mine too and he would g o to luhch. So we never let our
machinery stop. I was running frames in the card room, and it
went on that way and after that was all over with, all blowed
away, they went to putting one, couldn't have one man, put t ing
two men on a ••• putting one man on the job two men had been
running. And it just kept getting worse and worse.
Was that after the strike in 1929?
Yeah.
~hat was after that?
Yeah.
nd then they ••• thing s got so bad through the Depression
and they cut us down to half a day at a time. I went of a
morning and worked u ntil twelve and so mebody would come in and
run my job in the afternoon. But I had a wife and at that time
five children and I couldn 1 t feed anyone on it. So I quit and
went into farming, and went to farming.
Do you remember what year that was? In the early JO's?
Yeah. The early JO's. And them people that was left up there,
they didn't have no way to get out. But I had connections with
that person who had some property. I was always pretty bad to
talk and get acquainted and find about people, make friends with
people. So I had connecti ons with a rich man who owned all this
land from here, I mean right where this house is, and he rented
me his farm a nd
farmed it for five years. At that time, the
cotton mills picked up again ••• still stretched out.
e called
it the stretch out.
I went back to work to get my old job and
I worked about five years. And I b ought a farm, southe ast of
this county ri ght down near the Burke P ounty, Rutherford County
line. W
ent down ther e and stayed for six years.
W a t community wa s that?
h
That's the Dysartsvill e Community. And after I sold out that
place down the re, my motive t h en was to work out Social Security.
Th en you cou ldn't carry Social Security if y u we ren't working
for the company , but they chang6d theJaw after a while.
nd
in the meantime, by work i ng in the cotton mill I took what they
call emphy sema, brownlung we called it. I was afraid to go back
in t h e cotton mills on account of that so I went to Drexel
Furnitu r e Company and went to work for them.
Wher e is that?
I t's up here in M
arion.
nd I worked there for 15 years. So I
worked in t he cot t on mills for 15 years, I farmed for 15 years,
and I worked for Drexel Furniture Company 15 years. I made
4 5 years u ntil I r e tir ed. Th e fir s t of this year will be 14
years after I retired. And as far a s the mountains is c oncerned,
where I wa s rais ed, people wore out their land.
ot to where it
wou ldn't produce. One other thing tha t I didn't mention that
i t g re w good was tobacco back in them mountains.
Wa s there a good market for it?
Yeah. Pe ople ma d e pret t y good money a t it. A lot of people, they
didn't when I was a ch i ld, but af ter I got up about grown, people
g ot into tobacco, raising tobacco and mad e more and more after
I left. W been in this county about, a b out 5~ , ~ea!!B . fhat's
e
wh en we left Ma dison County. I was r ai sed inMAi~~ & · County , and
my wife was raised in M
adison County. ~ hat's mountain counties
�4.
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and my daddy bought a farm in Madison County . Tha t 's how come
we were living in Madison County when me and her wa s marr ied.
And her father owned a farm a nd it was wore out when he g ot it,
and he ain't ever d one muc h to build it up. And after me and
her c om e here,her who le family come too, in about a yeBl'and lived
here.
Did they come to work in the mills?
Yeah . The y c me to work in the mi l ls.
I t was he a ven to them,
to work in the mills and draw a payday, however small. But to
have payday every week and they had about thr e e or four chi ldren
old enough to work i n the mill .
How old did you have to be before you could go to work in the mill?
W
ell, back when I was a child, they put c hildren in the mill that
was e i ght years old.
Eight years old?
igh t years old.
What did they have them doing?
They were work i ng in t h e spinning r o om, spinning, swe eping the
floor.
I knowed a man, he 1 s been dead about two or three year· s.
He told me he went in t he mill when he was eight y e a rs old, worke d
there until he retired. He was an overseer for a bout lS or 20
years. But when my wife's p eople came here y ou h a d to be 14,
a ch i ld h a d to be 14 years old. You had to prove your a ge.
That wo u ld have been during the 2o•: s?
Yeah . And then they got it up ••• Yeah, then I think they fina l ly
got it up after I left there to where you had to be 16 before
they let t hem work in the mills. But when I first come to the
cotton mill with my brothers and sisters working i n there a nd
have little children, brothers and sisters, and the y'd take them
in there six, eight and ten years old and help to run. Anybody
going · n the cotton mill worked. ~ here wasn't nothing to it.
Did they pay, was th ere a pa y di ff erence for young •••
Yeah , you had to start off with the smallest wage and after you got
to where you cou ld run piece work, of course,you g ot a raise. Paid
better .
'pinners h a d to h a ve p iece work, we was in piece work and
carders had to h ave piece work.
hen they had day labor too. Hut
the day labor never did work but ten hours. They let them off,
they went to work at seven , let them off an hour lunch, and they
quit at six that evening.
iece workers, naturally, they would go
mor e hours a nd then of course I was y oung, pretty ambitious a nd
with family to support and I liked to get two hours more because
I made more. But they f :!. nally-I'm gett i ng a ll this mixed up-they f l nal ly got a case against the union or ganizer. 'l' oo k h im
to court. Tried him and he got a fine.
• urned him loose, he
r
went on down t h e coun t ry somewhere , I for g et where he went to,
went to organiz i ng down ther ~ and they got a case against him and
they came to Mari on to l nvesti r at e wha t went on ab out him around
here. And I don 't know exactly wha t the y ever did do with him.
But he t old them he organized Kingsp ort, Tennes s ee, that he was
over there or ganiz i ng, working on a union, to raise a union .
ell,
so me of the strikers here, to be sure,
they went over th e re to
check on him . They said that when they got there, the re was the
roughest looking man they ever saw with two .45 pistols walk ing
arou nd the gate , keeping the gate . Said they asked him had the mill
ever been uni onized and said he went to cus sing , said no, it
hadn't be e n organi 7.ed. ' hey run all the unions off. well, they
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run the most of them off here.
hey was defeated.
(inaudib le)
••• frie nds that hadn't jo i ned to beg for them and get them
(inaudible) ••• But naturally, I have, all of my l i fe, been opposed
to t he uni o ns.
I think, now this is just my opinion, I may be
100 percent wrong, but I believe the unions is the thing that
caused us to have the most troubles (i naudible) •• I think they
are what is causing 1.us to have high prices now.
Because when
they organize where they have to pay u~i o n wages, they have to
p a y s o much to pr0duce the stuff then they must let prices rise
to come out on it.
hen the poor class of people, people on
ocial Security l i ke me a n d my wife, we h a ve to pinch pennies,
to g et by. Buy only stuff t ha t's necessary. Of course, back
in the Depressi on, during the JO's and late 20's, there were people
who wer e out of work and strugg led to fesi their famili es .
nd
a 24-pound of flour about 65 cents, five pounds of su gar 25 cents,
a pound of coffee 15, all suc h as that. In the Depression when
th er e wa sn't so much union ••• ow, the people that have to pay the
union wages, to g e t t h eir stuff produced have to have a big price
on it to come out. And I guess the uni ons have done s orr.e good
but I th ink it's done more dama ge than any k i. nd of good, taki ng
all around. And I 've alwa ys been opposed to it and I guess I
always will be. I 've had some people, some v e ry close friends
belong. I n f a ct, some of my close relatives lost their jobs
up her e on ac c ount of uni on. ~ hey hired so me back but some had
to le ave. That's about all now,unless you want to ask questions.
You can ask questions about anythi n g you want to. I ' l l do my
b est to answer them.
You we re sayi ng awhile ag o that one of the reasons you all c ame to
M
arion was because the farming wasn't all that good. Now, did
you, your father owned the farm in M
adison County but you said
something about the soil th ere had been leached out, wouldn't
grow very well. Could you have had part of that f arm yourself?
No; there wasn't enough of it. There was just fifty acres.
How many brothers did you have?
I just had one •
Just one brother?
Only one of us could have l i ved on half of it.
I t j ust wouldn ' t produce?
No . It took the whole farm of fifty acres because it had been
cleared up , mostly cleared up and worn out before my father
bought it. M wife and father and mother, they had eight
y
c hildren when the y left there. He owned fifty acres, and his
land was wore out. Most of it washed away up there in the
mountains.
It was steep cou ntry?
Yeah . It was pretty straight up there •
Is there any way to estimate what, say, it was possible to
e a rn off of a farm of tha t size then?
Well, you t ake a farm of tha t size, my f a ther was selling
livestock and didn't mak e any grain to sell on that small place.
Now, he did where I was raised, where he had so much land. But
about, I 'd say about six hundred dollars a year was about wha t
he got out of his livestock he had for sale. Of course, the
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living , he had his l i ving made there, he made it there. Didn't
hav e to buy gr oceries or anything like that. About all the
money he got was clea r to stick in his pocket, clear. 'Cause he
made all his seed and in summertime he had pasture to run on.
As far as having any money and investing it, why wit h out he
too k a notion to buy so methi ng, he didn't have any at all. It
was all cle a r. When I was a child on the farm, I was raised
on, company land. I seen him in t h e fall of the year when lie'd
sold his livestock, and wha t stuff he raised on his farm for
sale, I ' ve known him sticking that money i n his pocket and going
out over the country want i ng so mebody to loan it to. He didn't
need it, didn't want it, didn't want to carry it. He got about
six percent intere s t on it and he felt safer of course when he
wasn't ca rryi n g it i n his p ocket. He just didn't want to carr y
it arou nd. Go out and hunt somebod y to loan it to, and sometimes
it was hard to do •••
Wasn't as much use for money then as ther e is or was later on,
was there?
A.
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Q.
There wasn't mu ch you had to buy •
The only person who would borrow it was somebody who wanted to
add nore livestock. And of course, in them days, livestock all
run outside, in the mountains, fenced up your fields. ~ ow in
the mountain s it was ready to be put on the market in the
fall. It got fat and was ready for t h e market . He just brought
it off the r a nge and put it right on the market. An:i a year or
two year-old •••
.Al,.
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Beginning of side 2
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Your father owned tha t farm free and clear?
Yeah , the last p lace. I n fact, that ' s the only p lace he ever
owned.
In M
adison County?
Yeah . He finally sold it out and came her e to Mari on too.
So your family and your wife's family came to M
arion?
Yeah.
Did they come for the expressed purpose of working in the mills?
W
orki ng in the cot t on mills.
So you all pretty much figured it was, that staying on the farm
of that size was not going to bring you suf f icient income to raise
a family.
Wel l , that wasn't my father's c oncern. He wasn't worrying about
the income he made, he made as much money as he cared about.
He wanted to get rid of the harder work. Working l n the cotton
mill was not as hard work as running one of them mount ain farms.
Of course, me and my brother wa s married. Just him and my
mother we re living on the farm. He ca me here to work in the mill.
Him and my mother both worked. M mother didn 't work too much
y
but she worked some. He sold out. He give ~35 0 for the place
he owned. The feller except ed the timber but he had in the
trade to saw him house timber. And he built a house out of
great big boards, built a barn, cleared some land, built some
fence. Kept it I don't know for how many years and he sold it
for $2200. Aft er he comehere , a ft e r we all come here, he divided
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that $2200 with me and my brother, give me $1100 and give my
brother $1100 .
Of course, you take the mountain people who
learn to do what they do themselves and lea rn how to do wi thout.
And he saved money all the time,he laid money back all the time.
Not much, but some that after a year or so it began to count up.
He got enough money saved that he bought that place right across
the road there where that house stood. He stared there for 12
or 15 years, I guess. When he retired,he got $ 22 a month and
mother drawed off ofhim and she got half as much.
'he got $ 11.
Both together got like $33 . Well , they laid away some of that
every month, some of that $33 because they made everything we
e a t r ight over there .
This wasn't built up out in here as it is. It's farm country.
There was one build i ng right out here, that house, and one out
here on top of the hill. That 's all there was, just there at the
top of the hill up yonder plumb down to Ne bo. Uns e ttled.
How did you learn that the mil ls we re here?
Well , I had friends tha t had left there and c orre here and worked.
They came back home.
vid they leave for the same reasons?
Yeah , for the reasons coming to the co tton mill to work.
When they came back home andyou learned from them, they were just
visiting?
Yes. I n fact, when me and my wife moved here there was a young
man that we knowed had been h e re and worked and he came back with
us. In 1918, when that awful flu ep:t.demic come in here. W was
e
here at c1·nchfield, and we had one ch i ld less than a year old
who had flu.
('Wife speaks) No, we all had the flu and it looked •••
(Hicks r e sumes) No, it looked like it was going to be so long
b e fore I could even get back to work, well, I had a little home •••
so we went back there and stayed a year and then come back. (wife
speaks) Then we c ome back to the cotton mills .
That would have been in the early 20 1 s?
(wife) Yeah , the la st time we come back.
And you came back th a t time to stay?
Yeah.
1e been here ever since.
I n this country, but not whe r e
we'r e living. Here in McDowell County.
The people who we re working in the mills during the early 20 1 s
after you all came back, came h e re the second time, were they
from McDowell County?
No . M
ost of the people in M
cDowell County wouldn't work in •••
might few people from McDowell County that would work in the
cot ton mills at all.
Only a few people?
Mighty few.
It was a disgrace for people in this county t o
work in a cot t on mill .
I t was made up of mountain people. (wife
speaks) That 's all it was •• ( inau d ible) (Hicks resumes) M
adison,
Haywood , Mitchell, Yancey, Avery , Watauga countie s.
ost of
the people that wo~ked here was from Haywood County where I come
f rom.
M
ost of the people i n Clinchfield?
Yeah .
Some people would get maybe in debt back at home. Th ey
had a home, but they'd get in debt and couldn't ••• an:l they'd
come here, their whole f amily, go to work until they paid that debt.
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When they paid t h is debt, they'd take off back home.
Is it your fe e ling that the people that came here from the other
counties to work in the mills came for the reasons you've said.
That is, it was either impossible or hard to make a good living
on the farm?
Yeah .
And the reason they came here was because they might find work
a little easier and there was some more money?
Yeah. In the end of the year, you co 1ld make more money up
here in a cotton mill than you would out on the farm. But
people lived hard. The houses were cheap. The house we l ived
in, y ou co ld set in the house and see daylight almo yt anywhere
you looked.
W s that the mill house?
a
That was the mill h ous e . They'd have people ••• they finally at
last sold them to the hands . Most all the houses repaired (inaudible)
nd what did you pay for rent?
45 cents a week for a three-room house.
nd wh en you first started in the mills, y ou were making somewhere
near $10 a week?
Yeah, around that.
When people in, say, ~ adison County were looking around for
something to do other than stay on the farm, wha t else could they
have done, say, besides stay there or come to the mi l ls? Wa s
there a lot of timbering back then?
No , not then. When people began to c ome to the mills,the timber
business was ove r with. Peop le had log , ed out all. the timber.
What was the name of the comp any that owned all the farm where
you were born? W
as it a lumber company?
No, it was just a big land company. Uptogo (?) I believe was
the name of the company a nd then the Boise Hardwood Lumb e r Company
finally bought the whole mountain.
Boise?
Yeah, Boise Hardwood Lumber Company .
nd they built a narrowguage railroad up in them mountains and set their band mill at
Hartford , Tennessee.
ell, they were working on that when I
left. Of course, I could have went to work for them but it was
a little too rough, for me. I went down there and helped t h em clean
off the ri ght of way for the railroad up Pigeon River. That was
after me and my wife got married . And of course one thing that
bluffed me out on it, everythin g in the whole country c ame in
ther e to work.
On that railroad?
Yeah . Cutting timber and logg ing . Drunkards, murderers, everything
else .
I t wasn't no fit place I felt like to raise a family.
And , I help ed clean off the right of way on Pigeon tliver. I-40
goes down through there.
(wife speaks ) Where he was raised, now
it's a game pres e rve.
vhat' s the name of it? (Hi cks resumes)
Yeah , in orth Carolina and part in Tennessee . Have y ou ever
be en down I - 40?
Yes sir. I know a fellow who lives out at t h e foot of l t.
J;'.isgah. He 's out on the Pigeon River . Clark's his name (inaudible).
1
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rr you went down I - 40, do you kn ow that W
alters (?) dam, that
dammed up P igeon River?
uns the water through the moun ta _ns
and comes out at 1v'a terville? 'r o a powerhouse?
I know wher e the river's down below I - 40 there. But I don't
remember it .
Well , I don't guess you've ever noticed ••• (wife speaks) Did you
see the powerhouse when you ••• ? (Hicks resu mes) W
ell, back up
t h is way there's a sign up there tm.t says the Harmon Den , on
a post .
I remember t hat .
Well , right there, just a lit t le piece up that creek was wher e I
was barned an d raised .
That is up and down country , isn ' t it?
Yeah .
Good bit steeper t h an around here?
I've t o ok peop le down through there and told them I helped clear
off that right of way . The~ say I don ' t see how you stood up
on that hill . And I could n t now of course , but I could then ,
when I was a young man .
hey say people had one leg shorter than the other so they could
stand on the ~ide of a hill .
(pause) You said that when you came
here you d i dn t h a ve to live in the mill village?
No . You didn ' t ha re to but it was cheaper . And ther e weren ' t too
many houses for rent other than in the mill village . or course ,
the cotton mill company wanted you to live in their houses .
But you didn;t have to?
No, you didn t have to •
Did y ou have - to at East arion?
No , you didn't exactly have to but they were the same way . They
wanted them to live in them .
(wife sp ea ks) They h ad bet t er houses
at East 1arion .
They did?
(Hicks) ~eah .
When you start e d out you were working ten hours a day, ri v e and
one - h a lf days a week . Did that chang e much during the 20 1 s?
At some point i n there you went to a 12- h our day .
Ye ah . It changed a lot , now . or course,
think t he.y start up
n ow and run maybe ten hours and the day labor works eight .
But ,
when I was runni ng frames on piece work , in the number two mill ,
it's the biggest mill, the one next to th e highway, there were
23 frame hands in th u t card room to maJ.re roping to make thread
for yarn spinning . And they put in new machinery, bi gge r machinery ,
and the last time I was talk i ng to people that lived and was
work i ng there , they got three hands doing what us 23 done .
· 'hat is a stretch out isn't it?
Yeah, that's a s t retch out .
Did you start out working as ai. carder?
Yeah , I went to runni~cards .
What s being a carder? What does that mean?
Well; that's where the raw c otton comes and you start it into
roping, about the size ofyour finger . It first comes to the
lap room . They make it into big round laps , runs through two
machi nes im there .
nd they take a lot of the waste out of it .
And they make big laps and br i ng it in there and hang it on the
backs or card s . And when the laps run out we laid it down on
a roller , stuck the end of it i n there and it would conB through .
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And we carded it and took a lot more waste out of it. and
made that roping . Then we took that roping in cans to the
drawing f r ames . Them drawing frames, they run it through two
mach i nes there, front d r awing and bac k d.J:rawing. Then it went
from there to what they called slubbers, gre a t bi g heavy work.
That was the first piece work I ever did, running slubb ers.
Then it went to the intermediates. Tha t wa s the job I run the
most .
nd they took the slubb e rs ••• (inaudible). Then we run
it through them interme d iat e s a nd it cut it down to about fourth
of tha t size. But we had to run two spools of cotton togethe r.
That is , t~ of the same size. Then it went from there to tre
spe eders.
nd th ey had to run two together there . And tha t
cut it down to a smaller thread .
nd a stouter thread. fhen it
went from th e re t o th e spinning room and the y respun it on
spinning reels. l n the spinning room. Then it went from the
spinning room into t h e weav e shop .
Did y ou ever work in weaving?
Yeah , I worked in weaving one ti e. First time I ev e r come
her e I worked in the weave roo m.
Did Clinchfield do any finishing then? Or print ing?
No, they d i dn't do any fin ishing. Just white cloth •
Did East ari on?
Yeah . They finished cloth ov e r there.
(wife sp e aks) They do
now. I don't know whether the y used to ••• (Hicks resumes)
They didn 't the n , when I was working in the mill, but the y do now.
They make rayon and use man - made f i b e r over there.
Let me ask you a question about the mills . Was it possible to
move up in a job? Like to be a boss or foreman or something?
W s that pr etty easy or were there so many people that it w s
a
hard to do?
No, it wasn' t hard to do . It was easy to bu i ld up to it. I
built up to that and wo uldn't take the job . Because I didn't
feel like I could put up with the agg ravating help . I was pretty
high -tempered . I knowed ~ e andthem was go i ng to have trouble,
becau se t hey failed to do wha t they were suppos ed to do.
ow
when the bosses got on them, they'd argue back and they just
wouldn't fire anybod y . About the only way they'd fire anybody
was on account of bad char ct e r. I f he t u rned ou t to hav~ a
bad character, why they ' d f ire him right on the spot.
But doing bad work, they wouldn't necessarily fire •••
They wouldn't fire you for that. They'd c o me around and raise
sand with y ou, but they wouldn't fire you for it.
We re there plenty of jobs? W
as there lots of people tryi n g to
get in the mills then or was the re just a few jobs open?
No. There was plenty of jobs. And a lot of peop le co me and
there was h a rdly a n ybody come tha t didn't g e t a job. They
was always ne eding help.
'l 'hat was du r ing the 20 1 s ?
Yeah, because tha t was wh en t h e people wa s coming out of the
mou ntains and off of the fa r ms and they s oon got dissatis f ied
and went back home .
Did a lot o f that happen? Lot of t h em come in, they 'd work
a nd then they went back home?
Yeah , they'd go back home and usually after they went back home
and stayed a year, year and a half, two years , t hey'd come back.
And pr ob ably stay the rest of th e ir lives th a t time.
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Why did they go back to the farms i n the first place?
W
ell, because they'd got dissatisfied . Dissatisfied with
the mills . (wife speaks) Some of them would come to work out
money to buy more land with, or improve their land some .
Oh , the y 'd come and get more money to buy a bigger farm?
(Hicks resumes) Yeah . But them that did that, usually when
they went back home, they stayed .
But the ones that did come
because they kinda got tired of farm ng , in fact young people,
children, th ey all had to leav e the home to get a job.
Why wa.s that?
W
ell , there weren't a ny jobs there , only just the farm •
And -the farm would only support • .•
That was the only sup p ort t here was, and the young peop le
didn't much like it . They wanted payday coming in .
You stayed i n Cl i nchfield pretty much duri n g the 20 1 s . Or did
you ever work East Marion? Or one of the other mills?
Yeah , I went ov e r th e re one time and worked with them awhile .
t East Marion?
Yeah , after I went out on the farm .
I got some lei~ure and
didn't h a ve nothing to do and I went back up to Clinchfield and
they just didn ' t have nothing for me .
They told me to go over to
~ st Marion and tell them that they sent me over there .
And I
went ov e r there a nd told the overseer that I 'd been sent over
there to work about three weeks . He said, well I can't do nothing
but put y ou to work here . Come in in the morning and work .
So , I worked there thre e weeks .
I
I
That would h a ve been during the 30 s, wouldn t it?
No, that was in the early 40's . That was after I'd moved and
bought that farm .
Ioved out on that farm .
It was after c rops
was laid by and everything was over .
1
But up to that time that you all left during the early 30 s ,
you stayed in Clinchfield?
Yep. I was in Clinchfield .
At the time y ou left Cli n chfield , how many hours a week wer e you
working?
I was wo rking 55 .
55 . Do you remember wha t you were bringing home in pay then?
Do you rememb e r what y ou were being paid?
Yeah .
I was makin~ $18 . ?S (inaudible) .
But inthe early 30 s they we re c ut ting back hours and •••
Yeah .
(wife speaks) ••• ri ght after the war , the First W
orld War •
We re the wages during the 20 1 s pretty much steadily going up?
No, they didn't go up fast .
ow , I might AO a I little politicking .
I
I don t know what your politics are .
But that s all right .
I
like you just as g o od to be one as the other .
nd , right after
World War One , let's see , who was elected? arren G. Harding .
· ell , after the election was ov e r with , they c ome around and cut
me down to 85 cents . After the electi on, I was cut down fran
a doll a r .
Why was that?
Just because t hey could . And I don 1 t knov if poll tics had any thing
to do with it or not. But I always blamed Warren · G. Harding for
it . Because he was president when I got cut .
Were the bosses trying to tell you how to vote?
W
ell , up here at Clinchfield , they wanted you to vote straight
De mocrati c tick e t . And if you wasn ' t a Democrat , you didn ' t fare
too g ood .
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But you could get a job if you we re ••• ?
Oh y eah. You could get a job and stay, but they giv e you the
c old shoulder if you wasn't a Democrat.
Do you know if that wa s the same thing at East ari on?
Yeah, t h e same thin g at East 1ari on.
They wanted you to be a Democrat~
Yeah. But now at Drexel Furniture Factory I worked at, you h a d
to be a Republican to get any favor up there. They wanted you
to vobe a straight Republican ticket and all my overseers was
Republican. They led me pretty high . Wh en Nixon wa s running
against ~enne dy, they come around, several of them, and t old me
that they'd done found out that ixon was going to be elected so
I 'd better turn ove r and vote for him. I told t h em he wo uldn't
be elect ed, thi;t I d i dn't think so, that he wruld.
o I had it
I
back in my favor. Of course, I didn t rub it in on any of them,
after Kennedy was elected,you know , and Nixon got beat. But I
never could understand how Nixon ever could get elected. Then
after this Water ate mess, he got elected like all therest of
them do because he had plenty of money or the people that h a d
I
the money was backing him ••• (inaudible). But it wasn t too
long a f ter that that I got on piece work.
ow when you went
in there running c ards like I started running cards, they'd
tell you that if there was anything you'd rather do besides the
job you had, when you got a few minute s off your job, go and
work a t it.
nd help the hand that was running it. And as quick
as y ou got to where they thou ght you could run that job, pretty
well, why they 'd giv e it to you . Give you this same kind of
job. The turnover in the work was awful fast ••• (inaudible).
Do you know why t hat wa s? That t h ere was so much turnover?
W
ell, one thing was, they began that stretch-out system. Of
course, it wasn't too bad at that time, but it started in that
direction and the people that come from 0 outh Caroli n a up here,
just droves of them. I n fact, all our overseers was fro m ~outh
Carolina.
(inaudible) And they'd co me here and they didn't
like North Carol ina. They didn't like the temperature and they
d idn't like the people, didn't like the mills, didn't li~e
nothing about it. Well , they wou ldn't stay long before they'd
go back to South Carolina. And they might co me back aga i n. 3ome
of them did. Of course, some come and stayed.
ow all the
ove rse e rs up there was fr om South Carolina. And I said awhile
a g o where I was off e red an overseer's place, you had first to
start off, they c alled it a fixer. You had to keep the machinery
repaired. They held you res p on sible for the work, the machinery.
And some people would get c areless and make bad work and when
they got on them ab out it, they'd swear that the machine wasn't
working right. So then they'd g et the fixer up and they'd give
him a bawling out. And when the fixer got on to the help, for
the work, why they (inaudible) to tell him what they thought of
him. A~d they didn't hesitate to speak with him. I heard them
talk to the fixers and that was why I was glad li wasn't a fixer
after I heard what they said. Then you went from there to what
you called a second hand. He was over the fixers.
nd he had a
boss carder over him, and a lot of them went on to be the boss
carder, the boss weaver, and the boss spinner. After the old
ones all died out.
End Tape #1
Begin Tap e #2, side 1
�13 .
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You were saying that the fellow you bought thi s land here from
was telling you that the bus i nessmen i n larion didn ' t want the
Clinc hfield mills to come in here?
No, they didn ' t want it to c ome . The people here knowed that
their people wasn ' t going to work at it . And then they regretted
the people t hat it brought in . ( i naudible) too many bad peop le .
But they fell in love with them old mountain people , when the y
come here . They found them to be truthful and honest . Whi c h
they didn ' t exp e ct them to be .
rrl they liked them .
Got along
wi th the m and r e s pect e d them .
You were s aying that a lot of people who might hav e been av ailable
in McDowell County to work i n the mills didn ' t . You ever find
out why?
No . W
ell , they just , it was a disgrace . They consid ered it a
disgr a ce , to work in the c otton mills .
That was the people who were , say , farmi n g here in McDowell Coun t y?
Yep . They lived around here , they was born and raised here , and
they lived hard . They lived a whole l o t harder than they would
if they ' d have worked in the mills .
But they just c ouldn ' t take
a bossman . They didn ' t want no boss i ng .
So they eked out a li v ing
out in the soil . And a f e w of them , a l o t of them , work ed on
the side and made a little blockade liquor . Most of them ended up
inthe chain gang before it was over with . They'd just rather live
off of what the y could make out o n the farm .
You farme d ••• You we r e on a farm in adison County and a farm in
this ar e a . Woul d farming have b e en any eas i er or more profitable
here?
Oh y e s . It was more profitable he r e , of course . I f a rmed with
a man that had an extra good farm .
t had been well took c a re
of and handed down thr ough his grandfather .
nd he finally
(i n audible) . He was a M
urphy . And his grandfather at one time
had owned 100 Negro slaves . And he built bri c k houses and burnt
the bri c k on the place where he built the hou se s for the colo red
people . • hey finally come on down to Condre y (?) , t h e g randson
and gr a nddaughter . There were two granddaughters and one grandson
a ndth em three got all his property .
Was tha t this property , here , or · n Dysartsville?
No , it was this here .
I don ' t know , it was about fi v e or six
hundred acres , all told . Arrl he had a riv e r farm but the Duke
Power Company bought his river l a nd and put water up on it .
nd he heired a lot of wealth from his mo t he r. (wife speaks)
She was a M
urphy and married a Condrey .
(Hi c ks r e sumes) Arrl
he had plenty of mcn ey and he was a hard man to get any of it
out of . He stuc k to it .
I n the 20 1 s and JO's , when you were in the mills , were there any
black people work"ng i n the mills?
Nothing only the scrub b ers . The y h ired a colored man to scrub
and (inau d ible) •
Then it must h a ve been co pany policy not to h i re bla c k people ?
Yeah .
Jell , them mounta i n people - wh e r e we re you raised at ,
in the mounta i ns or down in the cou ntry?
Down farther east .
ell , I can g iv e you a little informati on about that .
ow , them
W
mountain people was awful op p os ed to the colored people .
hey
didn ' t allow them in the mountains .
If one went back th e re ,
they killed him . And the peo ple that was work i ng in the mills
would have left if they ' d ever put a colored pe rson in there
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running a nything other than scrubbing. Scrub b ing the floors
(inaudible). Now they're using some of them now, but they
couldn't back then b e cause t h e people wou ldn't bear for it.
Up to the time when, you left the mills, there were no black
people work ing •••
No black people in th e re. Only the scrubbers.
During the 20 1 s and before you left the mills, how were mill
workers, people tha t worked in the mills like yourself, how
were they treated around town?
When you went to town to do
some shopping or something?
Wel l , they was high ly respected by the bus · nesses in town
because the bus i nesses in town knowed that Wu S where their mo ney
was comi n g from. And they knowed they was go i ng to get ev e ryt h ing
that the mill peo p le got ahold of.
So where busin es smen might h a ve opposed the mills coming in, they
were happy once the mill workers were here spending their money?
When they was getting the money.
nd the peo p le that was opposed
to it ever be i ng put here was happy about it once it got here.
Another thing. You were say ing ear lier that at some point some
of your bosses, i mmediate bos s es, were from South Carolina.
Yeah . W
ell, the main overseer was.
Was that true most of the time during the 20 1 s and early JO's?
Why was that? Did they ••• ?
Well , they ••• North Carol i na peop le didn't know the cotton mills.
And you know that ' outh Carolina was full of cotton mills and
everybody worked the cotton mills down there.
(wife speaks)
They didn't raise no cotton in orth Carolina much . (Hicks resumes)
And they knowed the mills . And sev e ral of them ••• my overseer
and a lot of the other overse e rs, the main overse e r, when they
found out that the mills was going to come here to arion , they
took correspo ndence co u rses in textiles. So they come prepared
to •• educati on for work and all . ~nd they really could handle
the cot on mill machinery . l'hey really coul d. I mean in running
the mac h i nery.
aking rope and thread and stuff like that. It
seemed to be na tural, b e c a use they had be en raised with it.
Do you know where Clinchfield and East ar i on got most of the raw
cotton they proces s ed?
Well , they got it out of the main market . The c otton market.
(inaudible) that bought and sold to these companies ••• (w ife
speaks) It come from South Carolina mostly ••• (Hic k s resumes)
W
ell , most of it did (inaudible) Anywhere t hey raised cotton.
Now , a t the time of the Depression , big cotton farmers come ·here
to try to sell t h eir cotton direct to the companies.
Did t hat work?
No. Th e company wouldn't b u y it. They to l d t h em to sell it to
these companies and they'd rebuy it from thEm. Shipped up here
by the carlo a d, one carload after another .
Why wouldn't they buy it direct?
Well , they had a standing contra ct with these bi g companies and
naturally the peo p le that have the mo ney get th i ngs dore the way
they wanted done.
The big cotton-buying co mpanies that bought the cotton and then
s old it to, say, Clinchfield . Do you know wher e they wer e ?
ere they in Balti more? Or New York?
W
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W
ell , they was way off somewhere . I don't k now for sure where
the y was at, but t h ey s e nt men i n at the fall of th e year , you
know, t o bid on the ~o tton for ginning . There never was but
one cotton gin in North Carolina that I know of .
It wa s down
near crest City .
It's gone out of business , I thin k , now .
It
was a small unit.
Let me ask you another que s ti on about that strike in 1929 . About
how many peo p le in C1inchfield were part of the union or supported
the strike?
I ' d say about , there was about one f::l:fth :,at Cli nchfield . Of
course there wa s more than tha t at East M
ari on .
And there was about 70 0 p e ople at work in Clinchfield? Then ,
in 1929?
Yes . At Cl "nchf ield, at the mill . And I don ' t know how many
worked at East ari on . It was a smaller mill than either one
of these up here . But there wa s about half of the people at
East arion that claimed for it . Finally got two or three kil l ed
over there .
Why was it that the workers at East arion supporte d it more than
at Cl i nchfield?
I don ' t know ••• I never have be e n able to understand that .
It
r eally was a bett e r place to work t b an Clinchfield.
t was?
Yeah , it was .
Was it better in t e rms of the mo ney you made or •.• ?
o, it wa s not the money but the work : ng conditions was bett e r .
You said earlier that the mill village at East Hari on had better
houses?
(wife speaks) Yeah.
(Hicks speaks) W l l , East t arion had better
e
homes for the people to live in .
(wife r esumes) ••• loo ked nicer
on the outside . I never have been in one of them . before .
Did you all know many of the peop le tha t worked at East Mar ·o n?
Yeah . I knowed a lot of the m. I knowed some of them well , one
of the old men that got killed was from Clinchfield .
Do you remember his name?
Yes . He was a Vickers . I knew him well .
Sam Vi c kers?
Yeah .
(wife speaks) He co . e from D ~ sartsville to the cotton mills .
(H ick s resumes) He got into the union . And some of them w&s so
stubborn that they wo uldn't have went back if the company had
told them to . But the most of them they wou ldn't let come back .
M
ost of them th a t joined the uni on?
Yeah .
nd they come around , I lived up here at Clinchfield at
that time, and they co me around one morning with a bi g old mega phone horn , around in a car . I was just getting ready to go to
work . They was hollering that everybody at East ar i on had been
run off . Ev e rybody at East M
arin has been run off . Tha t 's all
they said . W
ell , the people h ere from Cl i nchfield , well , that
joined the uni o n and was sticking to it , t h e y just took off ar:rl
went over there . But when they got there , why people was bunched
up into two bunches, union here and the non- uni o n up here • And
there was so me people, somehow, I don't k now how they d one it ,
some of them had got in the mill .
nd they was up in the card
room , up in the spinning room top floor , and they got a rifle in
the re . And the union f i nally at last went to sho oting guns (inaudible)
�16.
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And there wa s three peop le killed. One wa s old man J ona s.
e
was from East lar ion. Old Sam Vickers and I forget the other
fel l er's name .
(wife) He was a g ood old man, Vickers was.
(Hic k s res u mes) Yes , he was. He just got into that union.
e
liv ed,he had a home, he had a farm in Dysartsville. And he
had left it to come up here, but he was raised in hutherford
County . ~ nd he c ome up here and went to work. Had a great big
bunch of girls.
(inaudible)
Who wa s it ••• how was t h e union organized at Clinchfield? LJid
they get a couple of t h e workers to go a round and talk to each
person abou t joining?
Yeah . They first went to h olding a meeting about halfway b etween
Clinchfield and East
r i on.
nd a few of the Cli n chfield peop le
went out there and they liked what the o ld man promised them.
Promtsed t h em shorter hou rs and higher wages. If one of them
d i dn t like the boss, they'd run him off. So forth and so on.
They was going to appoin t common workers to be the hea4 man.
nd there was one old man, he was a Baker, and he didn t know a
thing l n the world about a card room. He could run, i fi the picker
r oom making them first laps. But that was about all he k nowed.
But they t o ld him if he joined t h e union, they'd make him a boss
carder.
' o before the mill closed down, he come around to the
card room there and he off e red me a second hand job if I 'd come
work for him when he got t hy place. I told him, oh yeah, yeah.
Of course, I knowed he wasn t going to get placed . And so he
g ot run off thinking that I -wou ld have been his boss man if he
had gotten the job they offered him.
nd he couldn ' t have run
the (inaudible) , much less the card room. And the peop le got to
talking it up, the ones that, had joined. Of course, they was
I
awful secretive about it. rhey didn t want many people to know
at Clinchfield. And •••
They were afraid of losin g their jobs?
Yeah. They was afraid of losing their j obs. Out they'd t a lk it
a lit t le and the strikers got gathering up at night after we went
back to work and they'd sh oot dynamite all night. 1 ight around
the mill villag e. Hard for a ma n to sleep. I can tell y ou one
pretty goo~ tale about that. I don't knew whether we ought to go
into that or not. But there wa s a fel le r when them strikers,
he had a little old dog ab out the size of that one and they'd
t rained it to t h row st i cks and it would go and get them. Bring
them back. That feller decided to get even with them.
e got
him some dynamite and he loaded up a stick one night and throwed
it down toward the ra i lro a d.
ell, that little dog seen him throw
it and he went and got it and brought it back. Got it back into
his yard before it exploded. I asked him , I said if, ever find
any of your dog . And he said no I never did find a p iece of it.
Blowed it all away,
(wife spea k s) inaudible .
I was read i ng in the newspaper in 1arion , had stories abou t the
strike and there was one thing I wa s reading about . Said they
had caravans d u ring the strike when both the mills were closed
down, ca ravans of farmers that we r e br:k:ging food i n for the
strikers. Do you know who organized them, or why?
Yeah. A lot of them did. The strikers organized it, but, they
got it started . But they made the farm e rs think they was
winning, go ng to win, and it would be up to them to buy the
farm e rs' food wh en ev e rything was over. lild a lot of people •••
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that wa s the day of th e horse and wagon and a lot of farmers
would bri ng a wagon-load of food in to the strikers and park
somewhere and they'd come and get it . Then the union went to
order i ng when they got out of any thing to eat. The strikers
all had a good garden. Everybody at Clinchf ield had a good
garden . And the strikers, the union man told them t o divide
their gardens with peo p le that didn't have any. W
ell, they'd
come in the r e, they'd pick tomatoes, they'd p ick potatoes , they
p i ck a row of corn, and in a day or two's time the y could clean
his garden out.
nd they went to Hoffman , the head man , and told
him that they had to have something to eat. lild he ordered a
carload of flour.
It come, and people told me that had a right
to know , they said it was from great .big rolli n g mills where they'd
sweep up of a tjight the flour that had sifted out on the floor.
They put it in bags and he ordered it. The people that seen it,
I never did see it , they said it was just as black as tar. People
got to eating that and the y all got sick.
But the farmers in the outlying areas were willing to do that
because they •••
Yeah , t hey thought ••• the uni on had them thinking that the y were
just going to take over. And they was going to help most of
them people buy their products when it was all over with. rnd
they'd bring it in just to give out to them.
You were saying earlier that some peo ple at the Clinchfield mills
had sort of taken you i nto their confidence and were telling you
how everything was going to work. Was that y our supervisors?
Yeah . No, not my supervisors. Me and him was very close
together and he kept me i nformed all the time what wa s going to
happen . I know the union c.ome to me, sent a special group , come
to my h ouse right late one evening. tl nd they told me that they
was giving me, since they liked me , they was giving me my last
c hance to join t he union . And i f I didn't, I was going to have
to leav e . Going to r u n me off if I didn't join the union. And
I knowed then that th ey was the ones that was goi n g to lea ve, and
I was going to stay. Th e way they come about it, they kind of
tole me now since y ou are a special friend of ours, we're giving
you a special c hance to join the uni on. You c an get in without
p aying any dues or anythi ng for so long . And I said, well, I
pretended gnorant i n it. Of course, I co u ldn't say nothing else.
I asked them, I said well, what am I promised1 They said s h orter
hours and higher wages. I said, well, when do I go to work?
I 'm ready to g o to wor k for shorter h ours and higher wages. I
pretended that I thought theunion was going to pay it, you know .
They said, n o, we're just going to make the company do this .
I said, well, if you ' re go ing to make the company do that, I can
do just as good a job at that as you can.
~ o just count me out.
I won't fool with it .
nd the loyal help up there , the y made it
so hard on the strikers after we all got back to work, after the
mills was running, they mad e it so hard on the strikers that
they j ust pulled up and left as fast a s t hey cou ld get away . The
company used so me tri cks too . They went down here somewhere
about outh Caro lina and the y got the roug hest old man and the
sweari ge st o ld man and the most profane old man I ever saw and
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he loaded up some household g oods i n a stati o n wagon. i nd the
union didn't think nothing. He come right on throughthe strikers.
And went to the office. They t ook back ovec there and showed him
an e mpty house and he put that stuff in that hou s e. 'l hey locked
the door. W
ell, the uni on found out . Uow I was working at the
time up in the card room. I didn't do much work.
I stayed at
the window to watch them mostly. I seen everything that happened.
They'd done had the soldiers up here in town, but hadn't brung
them down. They went over there, and t here was an old man, a
good old man, agood friend of mine.
ound the door locked, they
didn't k now wha t to do. He said it wou ldn't do to let that old
man move in there. So that old man that I 'd put so much faith
in, he took a stick and he broke the lock off tre back door of
that house.
Was it the h ouse he was living in?
The house t his old man had put his stuff in . He just , he put
it in the re a nd he left.
nd they carried that stuff out there
and throwed it across the hi ghway. I n front of the mill. And
the company sent a wagon team out there to get it. W
ell, when
they got out there, when they got to doing that, two big old
mules, and they got them mules by the bridles and everyone had
a club. And they got to beating them m
ules ove r the head and
most everywhere.
(wife speaks) The un i on people.
(Hicks resumes)
And they wouldn't let t h em come back. So that's when the soldiers,
they brou ght the soldiers in.
nd they said, the union said,
the so l diers was here to see that the rest of us left. That
was what they said. Well , the soldiers corre down here and they,
with fix ed bayonets, a n d they went to putting half of them this
way and half of them the other way. One old man- I could se e
h im fro m where I wa s at-he stood his ground. He wa sn't going to
run, a nd o ne of the soldiers give him a good poke in the backside
with that bayonet and I mean tha t old man could outrun a mule
af t er that. He just left there . fini then the soldiers stayed
up there for about a week.
(wife) Se ems to me they stayed lo n ger
than that.
Why was it the company went and got that feller from ~outh Carolina
and brou ght him her e with his furniture?
It was after we had went back to work. And then after trey p ut
his household goods back, they brought some more. Then he cane
he r e and they worked him ab out a month. I was glad when he
left . He was ••• (wife speaks) but he said why did they, why
d d they have h im t o come?
(Hicks resumes) Well , they had him
to come for j ust exactly what happ ened. They knowed that the
strikers would tear his stuff up.
Oh . '.!.'hey wanted to get the strikers to do sore thing, to provoke
them?
Yeah .
~ o the soldiers would come.
Yeah . And tre soldiEr s, they'd
told them t h e y wouldn't c ome down here, trey was already up here
in the courthouse. But they wouldn't let t h em come without there
was some violence erupted somewhere. And they went and got that
old ••• and he was the feller that got it started.
Was the r e anythi n g el s e you co u ld rem ember abo ut whether or not
the company had a plan to deal with the union? Did the y tell
you other things that they might have thought about doi n g?
Well , t h e¥ just aimed to be · t them. That was all there was to it.
They d i dn t aim to run under a union .
nd the Cli nchfield company
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did know that they h ad enough lo yal help to start up. ~hey
knowed it wouldn't be no trou ble to g e t e n ou g h .
nd they just
d idn't aim to run under a uni on. And that old man, bri nging
him in, he was the feller t ha t tur ned the tide.
He brought the soldiers, he help ed brin g the soldiers, arrl tm
soldiers could break t h e pickets at the gate?
Yeah.
W
ere there a n y other k i nds of tr i cks l i ke that th a t either side
used, that you could recall?
W
ell, not very much , I don't reck on. Now, t he company, after they
g ot back to work, the union members that was still in com
pany
hou s es, they notif ied them to g et out.
nd some of them left
and the most of them didn't.
nd they went a nd put their stuff
out i n the street. Or on the side of tbe street. t he c ompany
a nd the law did.
Evicted them?
Just piled it up on the si d e of the street. W
ell, the uni on
people they s ome h ow found some kind o f house a nd some of them
went back home. The y was all fr om the mountains.
nd some of
them went bac k home and some of t h em found a house. I had one
of my mother's brothers got into t h e union and one of my daddy's
brothers g ot i nto it.
nd my daddy's brother lived way down
h ere a t
ebo. And he was go ing back a nd forth to work. And they
fired him. And my mother's b r other, they got him a house over
the r e s omewhe re. And he went there and lived until he could find
a place t o mo v e. He went ou t on the f a rm.
' tay ed th ere as l ong
as he lived.
I s the re a nything that made the people that join ed the union any
dif f erent fro m t h o s e that didn't? I mean, were they like fr om
a diff e r e nt a r ea? Or did t h ey have anything in common?
ell, they was all fro m th~. mounta i ns. But the ones tha t I k now e d
W
from t h e mountains a nd back i n where we co ne from was co n sidered
to be boss y and ov e rbearing. That was the way . the y l o oked on t h em
back there at home.
W
ere they the ones that joined the union?
Yeah. They was t h e ones that join ed the union. And th ey was
people that had had their way where they'd lived. ~ ecause people
was afraid of them.
Sort of bossy and mean?
They were bossy and overb e a r i ng.
1
W
ere t h ey y ounger tha n tm people that didn t join the union? Wa s
there any age difference?
No, they were mostly middle-age peop le that joined. Mostly families,
that had a man at the head of t he family.
nd of course the
b osses had always made t h em mad.
h ey'd come around arrl bawl them
ou t about somethi ng.
W
ere t h e y g ood work ers? Or were they poorer workers t han t h o s e
that didn't join the uni o n?
W
ell, they just d o n e wha:; they had to do. uot by with anything
the y cou ld.
he ones tha t I knowed.
Did any of your close friends join t h e uni on?
Yeah •
We re you all still clos e friends t h en?
Yeah. I never did hold that against t h em, because some of them
I talked to, I t old t h e m I said now I don't believe in t h e u nion.
I don't want t h e uni ons. rlut you do •••
n d of Tape # 2, s i de 1
Be gin Tape #2, side 2
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After they broke the strike and broke the union, were most of
those people that was in Clinchfield that were in the uni on, they
eventually g ot them o u t of the mill? They run them out one way
or the other?
·
Yeah. Some of than t ore up their houses before they left (inaudible).
How did the company ••• did they just fire them or make it rough
on them?
They just fired them. Right off.
ost of them. Fired most of them~
Yeah.
Vo you k now where they went?
W
ell, they scattered about everywhere. ~ome of them went out
through the coun try around through M
cDowell County and some went
back to Madison , Haywood , Mitchell County, very Cou nty, Y111 cey,
back in there where they care from.
'ome of them stayed around
McDowell County as long as they 1 ived.
1:y uncle ••• both my
uncles did. Of course, my daddy's brother, he owned a home h e re
at Nebo.
nd worked in the mills I don't know how many years.
A lot l onger than we had. He ha.d a great big bunch of g irls and
they all worked (wife) They still live around here.
(Hicks . resumes)
They give him what they got for their work. It was the change
that come in their ticket. Say they drawed a ticket for $10.50.
He give them the 50 cents. He took the $10. That's the way most
of the parents did. ~nd he saved up enough money to buy him a
home. He had it when he died. A lot of tte parents, they just
let the children pay so much board.
Was there a lot of women that worked in the mills?
Ye ah. There was more women than there was men.
M
ore women than men . Did they do pretty much the same jobs that
the men did?
Yeah .
About the same thing.
LJid they get paid about the same?
Paid the same. All except n ow the rough end of the card room
where I was. L ike the carders, and drawers and intermediates.
'.l'hey was run by men. But the f i ner spinners, the speeders, that
made the f ner yarn, they was all most run by women.
Did they also work i n weaving?
Yeah. Abcut as many women as there was men in t h e weaving.
What about ••• what d id the women do? uid they join the union
in about equal num
bers, or were there fewer women?
No. Th ere wasn't hardly any joined •
The union was mostly men1
Yeah .
Was that true at East larion too?
No . I thi nk it was a loy of women joined over there. I tell you •••
That thing's off now ain t it? You got it cut off now ain't you?
No. It 1 s still on. You want me to stop it?
No. I don't care anybody knowing what I got, was fixi ng to say.
Th e re was one of our next-door neighbors up there at Cl inchfield.
And he joined the union and he had a little ch ld take sick. A
little girl, and he sent after me one evening to come out there
as quick as I could. And I got out there and him and his wife left
the r o om with a little child, and asked me to go in there and
stay with it. And ~ went in there and it died in five minutes after
I got t here.
W
ell, he had a sister that lived at East arion. Her
�21.
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husband belong ed to the union ove r there and they hadn't never
went bac·k to work. And everybody that belong ed to theunion seemed
to think that if you didn't belong to it y ou ought to be afraid of
it.
fraid of physical dama g e. He asked me, he said Perry are
you afraid to go to Ea.st M
ari on? I said no sir, I ain't afraid
to go to East M
ari on. He said you go over there, told me what
house his sist e r lived in and tell my sister to come over here 1
that baby's dead.
So I went to the house and pecked on the door
1
and she come to the door and I told her my business.
hat her
brother's baby had died, s ent for her. She said, well, I'll
have to se e my husband. He's down there on the picket line.
That was before East Mari en had ever started up. Said, I 1 11
h a ve to go down there,and se e him. Sa id I guess you're afraid
to go down there, ain t you? I said no, I a i n't afraid to go
nowhere. I said get in the car and I'll go down there. I went
down there an:i she hunted her husband.
evera.l of them c an e,
eight or ten foot of my car with t h eir clubs. And they was
looki ng at me awful mean, but they never said nothing. And
she talked to her husband and then she come back and got in the
car and I too k her back over ther e to her brother's. And when
I was a young man up there at Clinchfield, I was a man that
everybody looked to for everything. I had to hunt the doctor for
all the people. I had to dig graves for everybody, and I had to
hunt preachers t o preach at funerals, and I had to, well, they
just looked on me as a fre e riding horse. 0 o one n i ght, so me
feller pecked on the door and I went to the doo r and he said
Perry, my wife's having a baby m d I can 1 t get none of my uni on
men to go a fter t h e doctor.
aid, will you go? I said sure,
I 'll go. ~ o I put on my clothes and went out there and got in
the car. I had an old T- model Ford. He said, now are you afraid
to go to the head man? He lived over there between the r e and
Clinchfield. Said, are you afraid t o go to his house? I said not
a bit in the world.
owe went to his house andhe pecked on the
door and his wife come to the door and said he was over at union
headquarters on ~ orehead idge. That wa s a Negro secti on. He
c ome back and said that man's over at the union headquarters and
I guess you're afraid to go over there, ain't y ou? I said no,
I a i n't a bit afraid. Said a re you su r e~ I said I 'm v e ry sure.
So he g ot i n the car and we went over there to that union headquarters. That whole hilltop was covered up witq people. ind
he went in the old bu i lding there. I t had be en an old store
buildi ng. Found t h at man. And they had to get an order fr om the
u ni on bef ore they could get a doctor. He went in there and got
t hat order and brou ght it back and we went up to tov n to an old
doctor. He's b e en dead a good many years, and he wa s an old
country doctor. Name wa s Jonas. And we went to his house and
call ed him out. He promis ed to come. But I went through them
any time I took a noti on to. Part of the time I was mad e n ough
to bitten through nails and part of the time I was a mused, I was
tickled at them.
~hen you would go through the picket lines ?
I went through the picket l i nes. Another thing I ' l l tell · you. They
had t he roads blo c k ed. W
ouldn't l e t anybody in.
W
ell, my
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brother come down through there and me and my wife and family
was over at my daddy's on the other side of the mill • .And my
brother asked me, s a id have the y se rched your car yet? I said
no. He said, well, they will before you get home. He said
t h ey searched my car, and we both had an old t ouring car with
a cloth top. And of course, that finished making me mad. I
didn't have too much farther to go . I told him, y ou get right
behind me and I 'll show you how to go throu gh them. And my wife's
brother had t ook two old F ord c a r horns and tore them up and
put them together. Put it on my car and it made the awfulest
racket you ever hea rd. So he got right behind me and I started.
I had a 1 926 T-model Ford . And we crossed the railroad switch
that goes down to Clinchfield. W
ell, that crowd was all up
there, men and women playing (inaudible) , hav l ng a bi g time.
nd the farther I went, the mad d er I got. So I blowed that old
horn and it went l i ke a railroad whistle. .And they all turned one
another loose and just reached around and picked up them clubs.
They h a d them setting aga i nst the bank and the y watched the road.
And tha t's one time tha t o l d car run good. Just seemed like it
wanted to run g ood. I poured the gas to it, and it was the wnong
thi ng to do. And I went through tha t crowd. They just spread
li k e water. I got to the foot of the hill and told my wife,
said I 'm g o i ng to stop and go back the re. I might have hit
somebody. I 'm sorry that I done that. She commenced to beg me
to go on, s a id y ou'll just g et in a fight. Just go on, go on.
So I went on home. I said, you reckon I hit anybody? He said,
I don't know, but he said they was three and four double deep
on the side just as I come through . Bu t he said that ro d was
ope n, but they was all piled up on the side.
(wife speak s) They
j ust jumped out of the way. You brushed one man . (Hicks res umes)
A few d a ys after tha t, I was off , going back. The y stopp ed a
man , wouldn't let him g o in. I pu l led right up against him.
So they told him he'd have to back out, and go back. Wouldn 't
let h i m go in at all. And he started backing into me and I just
blowed that old horn and held my ground.
Some of them come back
there and looked. Said, let him through , let him t h rough. I t's
this craz·y man back here . He' 11 kill a bunch of us if we don 1 t
let him t h rough. So they let him through, go on, but they
followed h i m ove r there. F irst place he could t u rn around , t h ey
made him turn around and go back (wife spea k s) They was afraid they
was brirgtng i n new hands to the mills, that was wha t •••
Oh . New worke rs to repla ce the strikers?
(Hi cks resumes) Yeah. ~ hat was what they was trying to sto p .
ew
hands coming in. (wife speak s) But they never did try to s top
us no more . Why we lived on cotton mill hill a nd we had to go
out sometime. (Hick s resumes) ow when the soldiers come, they
sea rched my ca r every time I took it out.
(inaudible) Even
raised the back seat and raised t h e tr unk lid. Looked u nder the
hood and ev r y t hing .
Wha t we re t h ey looki ng for?
They wa s looking for weap ons.
Dynamite?
Ye a h . And pistols and ev erythi n g . F irst morning I went in the
mill after t h e soldiers come, the y stopped me abou t seve ral
hundr ed yards from the mill a nd wanted to search me. An d I needed
a poc ke t k nifle on my job, to cut roping.
nd he searched me and
found my p ocket knife . He said, now I 1 11 have to take that • I
�23 .
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said well , I don 't know h ow I'm going to do withou t my pocket
knife . I said , no way I can get it in there? He s a id you might
put it in y our shoe . So I just reached down and stuck it in my
shoe . '.L ook it in there . But I left it in there . I wouldn ' t
brin g it back out . They was afraid sorr:ebody would take a weapon
i n there .
(wife speaks) An d they ' d g e t to fighting (Hicks
res um es) They sent us word o ne eveni ng from East Marion thEt
the y was comi ng over there a nd going to run ev e rybody out of
the place .
Who was going to do that?
That was the union at East arion . And they brought us the word .
W
ell, there wa s p lent y of broom handles in there . mi we had to
make , call t h e m brush sticks . Take a bro om handle and whittle
it off and cut notches in it, and make a brush out of that waste
(inaudible) . To clean up under the machine ry with . And everybody
went to work , some cut the brush off the handle . Some found
a bro om handle . And the feller that had the little dog that
carr ied the dynamite ba ck to the house , he bro u ght him in there ••
g ot h i m a railroad tap off a joi n t on the railroad . He had it
n there m.d he whittled down his broom handle and put that tap
on the end of the broom handle . I watched him fix it .
nd we
wa s go n g to meet th em out at the h e ad of the stairs . I told
h i m, I sai d when we go ou t there a n d me e t them people , I'm going
ri ght behind y ou . He said why? I said , well , there won ' t be
nobody left for me to hit after he gets through with that nut.
nd they had the picket line all around our mill . 'l'he railroad
switch was down t h rough there. W
ell, a lot of them mean bo y s
wou ld g e t nuts , a nd the re was always plenty of old wore out nuts
off of the machi nery . They could get a poc k etful . They slip
1
up ther e and they'd throw them up at the windows .
hey hurt
several people that wa y . But that felle r brought h i m a nut off
the railroa d .
(wife speaks ) W s he aimi ng to throw it at
s omebody? (Hicks resumes) Yeah~ And they'd pick up the nut wh en
it c ome a nd they' d go to the off ice and report it .
nd they c ru ld
look at the nut and tell where it come from . W h a d an of f ice
e
in o ur own depar tment. One old mean boy n the r e , good old boy
but devilish . And he went so mewhere and took a wrenc h and he took
him a ••• got h i m a nut off ••• Come back in there a nd told me , said
you come over here nd watch what I ' m going to do. And I went
over there and of cou r s e he h i d there i n the window a nd they
couldn't see . He throwed that old big railroa d nu t out there .
He d idn't hit anybody, but come ri ght clo s e to . They run a nd
rabb e d it up and look ed at it and we co uld see them .
nd he
said I 1 m wo nd e r i ng if they k now wha t wi ndow that cane out of.
He got it off the railro a d .
Let me try to get the time stra i ght in my mi nd . You c a me to the
mills firs t in 191 9 ?
I guess it wa s 1 1 8 •
1 91 8 . And t h en you a ll lived in the mi ll villag e? And then you
went b a c k to M
adison County? S ta;yed a year and then you come back?
Mov ed back i nto the mill vil l age , and t h en so metime during the
20 1 s, y ou mo ved h er e ?
�24 .
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•
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No . Not here .
Dysartsville?
I first went out on a farm over across the hill, here adjoining
Lake James .
I rented it from an old feller . That wa s old man
Condrey .
When wa s that? What year were you out there?
Now that was in the 20 1 s .
(wife speaks) No, that was in the
30's .
(Hicks resumes) Was it?
(wife) Yeah, because Lois was
a little baby . Shew as born in 1930 and we moved between then
and 1932 . (Hicks)
ow, about the time she was a year old.
(wife)
It was ab out inaudible) when we moved out on the farm .
~ o , did you all then live in the mill villag e all thew ay during
the 20 1 s up to the 30's?
Up to th e 30's when we went out there . No , I bought a little
farm down here at Nebo and we quit the mill and went out ·and
stayed about a year . And ••• (wife sp e aks)But you worle d 'in the
mill. (Hicks resumes) But I worked in the mi l l .
went back and
forth .
And then you finally left the mills in about 31 or 32? To go •••
Yeah . We staye d ou t five years .
And t h en you come back to Drexel?
nd then I went back to Clinchfield .
nd I worked several years
t he n and then I bought that farm in Dysartsville . (wife) Th~
was in 1939 . (Hicks r e sumes) I t was in the early 40's . It was
just abou t the time that W
orld War One was breaking out .
They got three of our oldest boys. In W
orld W
ar umber Two .
How many children did you all h ave?
Ha d six. Six living and two dead . Got four boys and two girls .
You said earlier that you had brown lung . When did you discover
that you h ad that?
Well, I don't know that was what it was . I knowed it was something
bad wrong . Th e last wor k I done in the cotton mills .
That would have been in 1939?
Yeah . About 1939 . And I got a l lergic to everything . Hay fever •
Breathin§ got bad.
hen I went out on the farm and stayed six
years .
old the farm . That was wh en I was talk i ng a b out wanting
to work out ::,ocial Security . To have something to depend on
when I retired .
nd you had to have worked for a company at
that time to carry it ..," And I decided to go back • •• instead of
g o i ng to the cott m mills. They done everything they could to
get me to come back th re . And I went to Drexel Furniture ~ompany .
W
ent to work out on the yard . Handling lumber . And my emphysema
g ot worse, and worse. I got to where I wasn't able to run the
job . Somebody said (inaudible) well satisfied with my work .
When did you 1 k now you h a d b r own lung ?
W
ell, it ain t b e en too many years ago that I knowed for sure
that's what it was (wife speaks) We l l, the doctor told y ou that
was emphysema . He n ever did tell you it was brown lung .
(Hicks
resumes)
No.
lhey cal l it brown lung now . And , W3ll I wrote
t o a doctor that wrote this in the Asheville ~itizen . l old him
h ow I had work ed . And he wrote me back a letter and told me I
had emphysema . But the doctors around Mari o n here they ne~er
cou ld discov e r.
(wife spea ks) They called it athsma .
Just athsma?
�A.
And after I went to wor k up there in the lumber yard, I told my
overseer that it was getting too hard for me.
I'd have to give it
up. He as k ed me what I wanted to do and I told him I thought I wanted
to nightwatch. I'd worked with him a year and a half. So they had no
trouble getting a nightwatchman job. They was having trouble
keeping nightwatchmen. I t was an awful big old p lant and it was awful
spooky . And ther e wa s a lot of people ( inaudible). So they put me
right on. I nightwatched for two years there. .rind in the time I
was there, we built this lit t le old house h ere. Our oldest son's
wife while he wa s i n the Army, bought two a c res a nd a half of land
here.
nd he said he'd give •.• both of them said they'd g ive
e n ough l a nd to build us a house on. W
ell, I didn't much like the
idea of that, but I went ahead and built this little old house.
Cheap lit t le old house.
nd we been here about 30 years.
nd I
nightwatched two years and a half and our children all go t away
from home. There was nobody to stay with my wife. She was afraid
to stay by herself at night. I went and told my bossman that I want ed
on the days hift, something. I didn't k now nothing ab out the furniture
factory, that is the inside of it. Well, he went and got me a job
in the machin e room. Rough (inaudible) where all the lumber all started.
But it was worse than the cot t on mill. F or dust. There wa s dust
ev e rywhere. The ve ry worst thing that I cou ld have done. But
I stuck it out there until I was , got old enoug h to retire. They cut
the a ge down fro m 65 to 62. And on the l''ourth of July, I was 62
in April. Been 63 the next year. W
ell, I went to the Social Security
man here i n a rion and signed up to retire. He fir s t told me, said
you can't retire. Yet. Said it;s all right to sign up, but y ou
can't retire. I said,~11, didn t you know they'd cut the a g e down
to 62? He said no, I didn't know it. W
ell, I said, I been watching
th a t closer than you h av e. So he signed me up and I went back on
M
onday morning after the ~ ourt h of J u ly, went right up to my boss
and tol d him, I said I'm just work i n g a ten day notice and I'm quitting.
He said what's themat t er? I s aid I' m r e tiring.
So he come around
about an hour or two and he said, P e rry y ou can't draw a thing this
year. You've done made o ver $ 1200, and that's all you're a llowed
to make. Wi th them. He said you c a n't draw a cent until next year.
He said l e t's throw that notice away. I said, well, just throw it
a way. He said, well, I never did turn it in nohow. So I worked the
rest of that year and retired. I like to never made it. I had, tl!mt
dust gi v e me hay fever and agitated this collapsed lung. And so at
the end of the year, when they c ome out for Christmas, he come around
to me and said now P erry you're just go i ng to make $ 1200 next
year, ain't you? I said I ain't going to make nothing next year. W
hen
I go out of here a t Christmas, I 'm not comi ng back. Oh, he said, co me
back and work out $ 1200. I said no, I'm done. He s a id,~11, come back
and wor k unt i l yo ur birthday . I said no, I 'm done.
'o I ~ome out the
Christmas vacation and although I was supposed to go back and work a
few days between vacatio n and the first of the year. But I took
pneumonia fe v er. I saw a doctor and wasn't able to go back. But
quick as I was able to go, I went and signed out for release and got
what was coming to me.
nd they beg ed me there yet to come back and
visit, but I ain't n e ver g oing back.
End of Tape #2, sid e 2
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Howie, Sam
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Hicks, Perry
Interview Date
12/31/1975
Location
The location of the interview.
Marion, NC
Number of pages
25 pages
Date digitized
9/19/2014
File size
24.4MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
b6affd7cf20c7fcf3df5c2f7a0b30fa4
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape338_PerryHicks_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Perry Hicks [Feburary 9, 1976]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Howie, Sam
Hicks, Perry
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--20th century
Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--19th century
Hicks, Perry
Description
An account of the resource
Perry Hicks talks about working in a cotton mill in western North Carolina in the early twentieth century. He was born in 1899 and began working at a young age because he dropped out of the six-month school he was attending. He explains the influence the unions had: "naturally, I have, all my life, been opposed to the unions." He says that the unions caused inflation, so the poor people didn't come out ahead anyway. He eventually left the cotton mill because he couldn't support his family.
Boise Hardwood Lumber Company
Burke County N.C.
Clinchfield
Clinchfield company
cotton mill
Drexel Furniture Company
Duke Power Company
Dyartsville
East Marion Mill
farming
flu epidemic
Great Depression
Haywood County N.C.
Madison County N.C.
Marion
mill house
mill work
Perry Hicks
Pigeon River
protests
railroad
Rutherfod County
sawmill
segregation
voting
World War I
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https://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1fbd66f7d563f355b9b46038529a8345.pdf
8abd80a56901f7962cea6994bab58322
PDF Text
Text
Ti1is is an interview with Hrs. Jennie Horton of Boone, North Carolina, done
for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Mabel L. Brooks.
Mrs. Horton: My name is Jennie Horton. I'm sixty-seven years old. I'm
retired. I used to cook, mostly I have always cooked. I worked pretty hard
in my younger days. I worked in Monroe, 11ichigan seven, six years, I left
there and worked in Pennsylvania up in the Pokenoles for four years. And
when I worked up there, I was working with my son-in-law, and that work was a
little too heavy for me so I quit and got a lighter job at a camp where they
have young people come in on week-ends. And I stayed there six years . And
then it was time for me to retire, so I came back home. This i s my home,
Boone. I signed up for social security. Then I worked four years down here
at the hospital, down here at Watauga, I got arthritis and that really threw
me, so I haven't worked anywhere in three years. I have two children, a boy
and a girl. My son is married and he lives here on 8 North Street. My daughter
lives in Strausburg, Pennsylvania.
Interviewer: Could you tell us about life during the depression and how you
made a living?
Mrs. Horton: My children were small then. I worked at a hotel. I didn't
make very much, we didn't make very much in those days. We got b~, but it
was close and very hard. I ah1ays had a garden. I had a pretty good little
garden, and I would can different things that I could get, and what I could
buy.
Interviewer: What food was most scarce at the time? Like now we are having
a beef shortage . What was in shortage during the depression?
Mrs. Horton: Just about everything. I tell you, seems like I don't recall,
any beef being in shortage, just meat. Just pork meat. Sugar, it was rationed
also flour and coffee, and stuff like that, just about everything. You could
only get a certain amount.
Interviewer:
Was it per week or per month or what?
Mrs. Horton: Per week. And I sold, let me see what else . I believe thats
all. Most of the food was rationed. They ~ allowed you to have so much a week.
I don't remember about the beef, I guess it was too, but ... you had such a
little money to buy things like that. If ~e could really do without it we
would.
Interviewer: My grandparents said they couldn't get much meat so they had
to eat horse meat on the table.
Mrs. Tiorton: Oh there wasn't anything like that here. Two, Three months
ago, I heard some say they have been eating horse meat. And you know I said
if it ever comes here t6 North Carolina especially here in Boone, I'll never
but it. I'll never eat it. Cause if you read the Bible you aren't going to
find where Christ ate horse meat, nor any of his Disciples, why should I eat
it? When it gets down that low, I just hope the Lord will take me on out
of the way . Horse meat? Uggh.
�2
Interviewer : Well Y.rs . Horton could you tell us about getting medicines and
visiting the doctors and things?
Mrs . Horton: Well it seems like it wasn ' t too hard to get a doctor. Seems like there weren't as many prescriptions filled. They didn't write you prescriptions
as quickly as they do now for medication . But mostly, if you weren't too
awfullu sick, just with a cold and had to have something like that , the doctor
generally gave you a medication, something you didn't do yourself.
Interviewer :
Were home remedies more of usage then?
Mrs. Horton:
Yeah, home remedies were pretty useful then.
" ~
Interviewer : What do you think works best, home remedies, or that you recieve
from the doctors?
Mrs. Eorton : I don't know. Sometimes that old time stuff is pretty good,
yes it is. It really is. Of course the doctors make light of it and all .
I have heard in my younger days where people would have pneumonia fever and
they ' d make onion polysis and put on the patient, and give them some kind of
tea, and it would break up the fever. If you put onion polysis on you, on
somebody now, I guess the doctor would throw you out of the house .
Interviewer:
You said you had a garden before, what kind of tools did you use?
Mrs . Horton: I had hoes, shovels, madigans, what I got now . I raked in the
garden last year . This summer I had a pretty good garden, but last year, I
didn't do any good. I was on crutches with my knees. I had arthritis so
bad and I was on crutches just about all summer last summer, but by the help
of the Lord, I got better and I put out a pretty good little garden this year .
I think I raised enough potatoes to do me all winter. And I raised corn and
beans . I canned corn and I canned beans.. I canned tomatoes , and I canned
apples and I made apple jelly .
When your mother was
Interviewer: Sounds like you ' re pretty well stocked.
raising her garden, can you remember any methods that she used that you don ' t
have to use today?
Mrs . Horton: No, I don't . I was born and raised on a farm. My father farmed
and there ' s not much difference now . The only difference in it now and back
then, people would have to use a horse and a plow . But now they can take one
of these little tillers and go through and maybe dig a few weeds out and you've
got your stuff made. But then they would have to have a horse and a small plow,
a one horse plow and plow through the rows . But all of thats done away with now.
You just get you a tiller and go on through and plow up your garden without
horses . And we had cows, we had chickens, my daddy raised p.igs, raised hogs
and we got along pretty good . Money wasn't plentiful, but we did have plenty
to eat.
Interviewer: Would you think that your family got along better than some of the
other families durinE this time?
�3
Mrs . Horton: Well yes I do because now-a-days my grandchildren, they have
two and three pairs of shoes, which we didn ' t get but one pair of shoes a
year when we were growing up . Now my little grand- daughter, she ' s got two
or three pairs of shoes . Hy nieces little daughter ' s has two or three pair .
I say if you all had to survive what I came through, I say you'll be thankful
that you have just what you have . Ilut I don ' t know, they still aren't satisfied .
Interviewer:
I guess people had to make a lot of their clothes and things?
Mrs . Horton :
Yes, way
Interviewer :
Did you ever have to go to the grits mill?
back then they did .
Mrs . Horton: Yes, I went to the mill. We ' d take wheat to the ~ill and get it
ground into flour . And we ' d take corn and get it ground into meal . I couldn't
carry but a peck or about a half a bushel. It wasn't too far from where we
lived, where we took our meal to. But the mill we took our flour to was about
four miles from our home .
Interviewer:
Did you have to walk?
Mrs. Horton : Yes pretty much, and that ' s a long way. But generally, my
father would always get our neighbors. they had a team of ~ules and when they
would go to the mill, they would all go in and go together . That made it a
little easier.
Interviewer : Do you know any little funny acts or incidents that happened
on the way to the mill?
Mrs . Horton:
No, I don ' t know any.
Interviewer :
What about the educational situation?
Mrs. Horton : Among the children, there . weren ' t but two of us that went to
school. There weren't but three of us . We had to walk three miles going
and three miles coming. Six miles a day to school .
Interviewer:
Were the whites and blacks going to school together7
Mrs. Horton:
No.
Interviewer :
this time?
Was there a lot of tension between the whites and blacks during
No way .
~
.
Mrs . Horton: Not a bit . I ' ve been here in Boone . I ' ve been living in Boone .
I was born and raised in Tennessee, but ~y mother and father moved here about
forty or fifty years ago and I never heard anything about segregation till I
came to Boone, North Carolina , that's the truth . We didn't go to school together
nor to church together, but sometimes the whites would come and visit our church
and they would invite the Colored to come and visit their church . I didn ' t
�4
know anything about it until I came to North Carolina and seems like it got
worse and worse and worse so I hope it •·s better now. Some places it will
never be any better. That's right.
Interviewer: Do you think it was a good thing for the schools to intergrate
like they have?
Mrs. Horton: Yes I do. Especially in a little place like this. This is no
city, you know that, but the Colored weren't situated to teach some of the
children. Especially when they got to high school, at first they didn't
have any high school teachers here and they would have to send their children
off. My son and my daughter, when they finished elementary school here, I
had to send them to Kings Mountain, North Carolina. I sent them to Kings
Mountain, North Carolina to finish high school. And then, as I remember,
some of the children went to Tennessee and some went to Greensboro these that
wanted to. You know, so many will and so many won't. And so many can and so
many can't. But I am thankful to the Lord that everything has turned out like
it has. Everything seems to be a whole lot different from what it used to be
when I was ~ growing up. If they'd get a job, people would get more money than
they did back when I was a kid. I have worked for as little as three and four
dollars a week and you know that isn't anv money. Now just let somebody ask
you to work for them for three or four dollars a week. Some people would get
rather violent. You'd better believe it. Yes sir.
Interviewer: When you were going to school, how were the schools set up, did
they have everybody in one room?
Mrs. Horton: No, we had two rooms. I got as far as the sixth grade. I went
about two of three weeks in the sixth grade and I had to quit. My father and
my mother weren't too well and my brother, there weren't but four of us, and
three girls and my brother. He lives out on up above us. That little white
house that sits down there, he lives up above there in a yellow house. He
married and we had to be the girls and the boys too so we just quit going to
school. Stay at home and help with the house work.
Interviewer:
Did
peop ~ e
tend to marry younger back then they do now?
Mrs. Horton: No I don't think so. I don't think they did. It don't seem to
me like they did. They jump up and marry, I wouldn't be surprised if some
little ten, twelve year old children don't get married, it wouldn't surprise
me a bit. They didn't marry as young, as early as the young people do this
day and time.
Interviewer: Would you say there was a difference in the races getting married?
The whites tend to marry younf.er than the blacks?
Mrs. Horton: Well I don't know, I don't knm» how old they would be, but seems
that they'd be pretty old when they would get married, no older than eighteen
or nineteen. But now they marry younger than that don't they? Some of them
do.
�5
Well Mrs. Horton, I see that you have company coming and I won't hold you any
longer. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region.
The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students.
Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU.
An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school.
This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1965-1989
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Brooks, Mabel L.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Horton, Jenny
Interview Date
6/17/1974
Location
The location of the interview.
Boone, NC
Number of pages
5 pages
Date digitized
9/16/2014
File size
3.11MB
Checksum
alphanumeric code
acacad4985e3489eaecff5dca3a621e2
Scanned by
Tony Grady
Equipment
Epson Expression 10000 XL
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
111_tape288_JennyHorton_transcript_M
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jenny Horton [June 17, 1984]
Language
A language of the resource
English
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brooks, Mabel L.
Horton, Jenny
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century
Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County
Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County
Horton, Jenny
Description
An account of the resource
Jenny Horton, a black woman living in Boone, talks about working as a cook most of her life. She worked in a hospital for a few years, but had to stop after she developed arthritis. She talks about the rationing of sugar, flour, meat, coffee, and other foods during the Depression and the different views on medicine people used to have. People were much more likely to use home remedies than go to the doctor. She also explains there was "a lot of tension between whites and blacks."
Boone
farming
gardem
garden
Great Depression
grits mill
home remedies
Jenny Horton
Michigan
Monroe
North Carolina
Pennyslvania
Poconos
segregation
Watauga Hospital